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Who are the "for sure" Hall of Famers playing currently today??

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Old
01-09-2004, 04:48 PM
  #51
Upon1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Kariya has a hell of a lot of work to do before he's even on the "bubble". Selanne, Tkachuk...these are good examples of bubble guys...guys who will likely have the numbers when they're retired, but likely need some post-season success to go along with it. Not to be forgotten is their International play...Selanne being one of likely the two greatest Finnish players ever, and Tkachuk being a part of some very good American squads. They both have some work to do, but both should get some consideration.
Well I agree(I think). I reckon the only think stopping Kariya from being "on the bubble" is his age and the fact that he decided to get a degree instead of starting at 18 or 19. 29 years old, 305 goals 371 assists for 676 points in 615 games obviously is by no means ANYWHERE near in. He was a point per game last year, close enough to it this year, and now that he gets to choose(being a UFA) the place he most likely will succeed, most likely in offensive systems, for the rest of his playing days another 5 years of ppg or thereabouts will get him 1000 points at a ppg. Which likely HOF Shanahan didn't achieve. Admittedly though 5 years is a long time in hockey anything could happen.

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01-09-2004, 05:00 PM
  #52
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Yzerman, Shanahan, Chelios, Hull, Hasek, Lidstrom...for sure.

I wonder about Curtis Joseph...I kinda sorta doubt it, but stranger things have happened. I mean, think of who should be there and isn't and some who are there who kinda make you scratch your head and say "huh?"

You pays your dime and you takes your chances, I guess...

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01-09-2004, 05:03 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Until I see a guy like Dino Ciccarelli in the Hall (hopefully never) you will not convince me that Dave Andreychuk belongs there. Don't get me wrong, Dave was a great player, but he was never head-and-shoulders better than anyone even on his own team. His point totals speak more to longevity than greatness.

And I stand corrected on Nieuwendyk. 3 Cups: '89 with the Flames, '98 with the Stars (Conn Smythe Trophy), and '03 with the Devils.

I don't see Selanne or Kariya in there barring a major career turnaround. Both have been in decline for a while now. But never say never...

And to those suggesting guys like Thornton and such I have two words for you: Jason Allison. He may come back still, but after his 90 point season everyone was predicting big things, "future Hall-of-Famer" and such. Anything can happen. Give me at least 10 years to judge a career.
Most seem to group Selanne and Kariya together in HOF considerations, but lets remember that Selanne's older and accomplished quite a bit before Kariya's career started. Both definitely have work to do, but I'd argue Kariya has quite a bit more. Selanne's numbers have dipped, but he's into his 30's and the wear and tear on his knees are catching up to him. In his prime for about 9 seasons he was quite consistently dominant, among the very best in the league. His numbers have dipped, but he's nearing 500 goals and 1000 points. He should have a couple of seasons of productive hockey in him (a lot depends on the CBA negotiations, and how the Avs do in the playoffs this year...an extended stoppage or a Cup win could have Teemu contemplating early retirement). If these last few seasons go decently, and if he can get his mitts on a Cup, I think he has a pretty strong case. People tend to forget how great he was in his first 10 seasons.

Remember though, this is coming from one of this biggest fans...(admitted bias).

Kariya...he's had some great seasons, but its been a while since he's been a dominant force in the league. I'd venture to say that Selanne had a lot more to do with his success than most give Teemu credit for. He's been frustratingly invisible for extended periods in recent years, and as many have pointed out, doesn't seem to be the same since the Suter hit. Unless he can turn it around and really get back to that 40 goal, 90 point level for a few seasons, I don't see him making it. He's still relatively young, though, and definitely has time.

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01-09-2004, 05:09 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upon1
Well I agree(I think). I reckon the only think stopping Kariya from being "on the bubble" is his age and the fact that he decided to get a degree instead of starting at 18 or 19. 29 years old, 305 goals 371 assists for 676 points in 615 games obviously is by no means ANYWHERE near in. He was a point per game last year, close enough to it this year, and now that he gets to choose(being a UFA) the place he most likely will succeed, most likely in offensive systems, for the rest of his playing days another 5 years of ppg or thereabouts will get him 1000 points at a ppg. Which likely HOF Shanahan didn't achieve. Admittedly though 5 years is a long time in hockey anything could happen.
Kariya definitely has a lot of hockey left in him. If he can elevate himself back to elite status soon, he has a shot. He has the early-career numbers to build upon. He's never been considered for the Hart (I don't believe), and thats something that other "on the bubbles" like Selanne and Federov have been considered for. Its just frustrating because his play has been in a bit of a decline of late. Hopefully for him, he can get it going in the second half this year.

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01-09-2004, 06:05 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens4ever
Lemieux is definitely a for sure HOF'er...seeing as he has already been inducted.
Lol, you've noticed what I noticed, but people are still listing him after your post

EDIT: I went back and checked. About 5 people have commented on that fact.

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Old
01-09-2004, 06:06 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
No cups... sorry but so many people know that championships mean so much.

And Sundin is a great player but there are 3 swedes better than him right now in Forsberg, Naslund and Lidstrom.

BTW Lidstrom is a shoo-in... 3 cups, 2 Norris, a Conn Smythe.

OH come on Naslund has had what 2 or 3 good years and a whole slew of crap years. You put Sundin at 29 or 30 beside Bert and Sundin cracks 100 points yearly.

Forsberg is hurt to much to put him above Sundin. When he plays I will say he plays in a class of his own.

Lidstrom I do give you that one.

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01-09-2004, 06:07 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Kariya definitely has a lot of hockey left in him. If he can elevate himself back to elite status soon, he has a shot. He has the early-career numbers to build upon. He's never been considered for the Hart (I don't believe), and thats something that other "on the bubbles" like Selanne and Federov have been considered for. Its just frustrating because his play has been in a bit of a decline of late. Hopefully for him, he can get it going in the second half this year.

I think the problem with the Kayias,Selanne's,Modano's,JR's,Federovs and other "bubble types" and which I stated earlier in the thread when I started it, is that alot of these players simply have to play productive "pt per game" at least, type hockey for 3-4 more seasons.....simple as that.

That's why these guys aren't IMO "for sure" locks to make it the HOF. If any of those guys careers ended today, IMO, there would be no way they'd be inducted. And if they were, it really would make the Hall a sham. Forsberg is another great example. Sure he's probably the best player in the NHL today but his career #'s taking in totality, just don't cut it....

Bottom line, there are ALOT of players who have been listed here who still need 3-4 more solid seasons in order for them to be considered on that "lock" level.....Good convo thus far I must say with alot of you bringing up some excellent points....

-Maxie

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01-09-2004, 07:46 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus915
I think the problem with the Kayias,Selanne's,Modano's,JR's,Federovs and other "bubble types" and which I stated earlier in the thread when I started it, is that alot of these players simply have to play productive "pt per game" at least, type hockey for 3-4 more seasons.....simple as that.

That's why these guys aren't IMO "for sure" locks to make it the HOF. If any of those guys careers ended today, IMO, there would be no way they'd be inducted. And if they were, it really would make the Hall a sham. Forsberg is another great example. Sure he's probably the best player in the NHL today but his career #'s taking in totality, just don't cut it....

Bottom line, there are ALOT of players who have been listed here who still need 3-4 more solid seasons in order for them to be considered on that "lock" level.....Good convo thus far I must say with alot of you bringing up some excellent points....

-Maxie
Likewise, good discussions have been tough to find around here lately it seems.

I guess it might help if there were some concrete guidelines, if that were even possible. There was a time when 500 goals and 1000 points was a lock. I don't think it is anymore (on a side note, can anyone name any players who've produced more than 500g or 1000p and not gotten in?), but is there a level of production upon which a player simply cannot be denied? Nowadays it seems people judge players on the level of dominance they showed during their careers. Were they truely one of the BEST in their time...something far less tangible. It leads to arguments of consistency and longevity (Gartner and Andreychuk types) vs. shorter periods of dominance and elite-level play (Goulet and Selanne types). Such a tough thing to quantify, but it'd make it so much easier to determine who are locks and who isn't if there were some more concrete guidelines to go by. Toss in the fluctuations in league-wide offensive production, and the job gets even shadier. I guess when it comes down to it, there are very few locks, and a lot of guys who have a shot.

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01-09-2004, 08:10 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
Grant Fuhr's cocaine problem comes to mind.
Speaking of cocaine, anyone who doesn't think McInnis is a hall of famer is on it. I think Leetch and Chelios will make it as well, more so than Lidstrom at this point.

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01-09-2004, 08:44 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan
Ahh, but did Sundin ever get his own stamp?

You may be correct though. Forsberg could be the mayor of his hometown probably if he chose.

But Sundin may be more popular in Sweden as a whole.

Any Swedes lend feedback?
In terms of a pure popularity contest, I guess Forsberg will win. As hockey players, Forsberg is the magician and Sundin is the Leader. Not very surprising because he likes to score late game winning or game tieing goals whenever he plays with the National Team. Preferably against Finland or Russia/CCCP which helps too I guess.

For me, Lidström is #1, 3 norris and multiple stanley cups, but he has still alot to prove on the national team. Sundin is 2nd, if he wins a cup, olympic gold or world cup before he retires, then he will become nr 1.
Forsberg is injured all the time but when he's healthy and on his game he's certainly the best hockey player of the lot. Not sure that qualifies him for the Hall of Fame though.
Näslund has had a great second part of his carreer but still has alot to prove.

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01-09-2004, 09:08 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
If naslund goes into the hall, the hall of fame should be closed. Another thing. bertuzzi hasn't shown anything at all that makes him hall worthy. NHL hall is already a joke, and if we just put in people like Roenick, Naslund and Pronger it will only be more of a joke.
I quite clearly implied that they would be in the hall if they keep going at the rate they are for 5 more years. Yes. If Naslund scores about 40 goals and 90 pts for another 5 years, (this is a big question mark because it's assuming he stays in the NHL) it would put him at about 500 goals and 1000 pts for his career. But yeah, if they put him in, close the hall. You're a real smart guy, aren't you?

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01-09-2004, 09:11 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Until I see a guy like Dino Ciccarelli in the Hall (hopefully never) you will not convince me that Dave Andreychuk belongs there. Don't get me wrong, Dave was a great player, but he was never head-and-shoulders better than anyone even on his own team. His point totals speak more to longevity than greatness.
There's no place in the HOF for a guy who's willing to park himself in front of the net and take a beating night after night for 20+ years? A guy who still may have the best hands in the game? A guy who's scored 620 goals and counting? A guy who holds the all-time record for PP goals? A guy who scored points when his team needed points, won faceoffs when his team needed someone to win faceoffs, and became a stellar defensive player when his team needed help on its shutdown line? A guy who's almost single-handedly turned around a struggling franchise by putting a group of clueless kids on his back and showing them the way to the post-season? All this despite the fact that he can't skate a lick?

Dave Andreychuk is what hockey is all about. If there's no room for a guy like him, then who wants to be in the Hall of Fame?

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01-09-2004, 09:15 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
There's no place in the HOF for a guy who's willing to park himself in front of the net and take a beating night after night for 20+ years? A guy who still may have the best hands in the game? A guy who's scored 620 goals and counting? A guy who holds the all-time record for PP goals? A guy who scored points when his team needed points, won faceoffs when his team needed someone to win faceoffs, and became a stellar defensive player when his team needed help on its shutdown line? A guy who's almost single-handedly turned around a struggling franchise by putting a group of clueless kids on his back and showing them the way to the post-season? All this despite the fact that he can't skate a lick?

Dave Andreychuk is what hockey is all about. If there's no room for a guy like him, then who wants to be in the Hall of Fame?
*stands up and starts a slow clap*

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01-10-2004, 02:19 AM
  #64
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Interesting topic


J Sakic - Reminds me of Paul Molitor and he made the baseball HOF which actually is difficult to do so 95% of getting in

J Jagr - Cup wins, mvp's, the stats are there, scoring championships lets not forget the Jagr today is not the same one from the 90's 95% chance of getting in

Shanahan - cups wins and overall goal stats, not really much more 50% chance of getting in

M Lemieux - IN

B Hull - Cup wins. goal scoring totals, won't hurt who his dad is, interesting interview with the media, 100% chance of getting in

S Yzerman - Captain of original 6 team, Cup wins, overall point totals, one of the best 2 way players in the history of the NHL, 100% chance of getting in

S Federov - Cup wins, great defensive forward, hart trophy winner, 40% chance of making it now

P Forsberg - Cups wins, a hart win, goal totals are not threre neither are points. Internationally has not been great. 30% chance at getting in now

P Karyia - stats boosted possibly by playing with Selanne. Never was the same player after Teemu left. 5% chance of getting in now

T Selanne - 70 plus goals as a rookie, arguable was the reason Karyia had so many good years 25% chance of getting in

M Modano - Cup win, considered one of the best 5 players in the game for 10 years+. Totals might not be there now but more than likely will be 75% chance at getting in

M Sundin - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs, 4th more consistant scorer in NHL history. Numbers are not there yet but easily should be 75% chance now at getting in (100% with a cup win or a Hart trophy)

Tkachuk - Above average goal totals 0% chance now at getting in

J Roenick - Indian Heritage will help him, other than that not really too much 10% chance at getting in now

M Recchi - Underrated forward, and I'll underrate him here again 0% chance at getting in now

M Messiar - Umm i don't have 2 weeks to put why he should be in lets just say 100% and leave it at that

NLidstrom - Cup wins Norris trophy will go down as one of the best 20 to ever play the game 100% chance of getting in

AMcInnis - Cups wins, Norris wins, hardest shot for many years 95% chance at getting in

BLeetch - see lidstrom 100 chance of getting in

S Stevens - Cup wins Norris wins good overall point totals one of the best hitters in recent times, best defensive defenseman of his time 100% chance of getting in

MBrodeur - would get in now with his cup wins SO's overall win % has done everything even a gold medal 100% chance at getting in

DHasek - considered for a while to be best in the world, will his comeback hurt him?, will his attitude towards the press hurt him? Would be 100% but I can see some writers not giving votes to him 90% chance of getting in

E Belfour - Win totals Cup win SO total Jenning's awards Veniza awards, again will his past attitude hurt him? 85% chance at getting in

C Osgood - Win totals, Cup win, overall career numbers are very good, will get bashed for being on a great team and not winning more cups, very underrated 55% chance at getting in

D Andreychuk - 620 goals, PP goal numbers, 50 goals for at least 2 teams 20 years played 85% chance at getting in

C Chelios - Cup wins. overall totals, might get some negitive press voting because of alleged attitude towards press. 85% chance of getting in



R Francis - Cup wins another one of the best players to play the game over the last 15 years 100% chance of getting in

Robataille - Cup wins, most goals by a LW overall totals 100% chance of getting in


There are others and I'll edit them in when I wake up in morning

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01-10-2004, 02:23 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
There's no place in the HOF for a guy who's willing to park himself in front of the net and take a beating night after night for 20+ years? A guy who still may have the best hands in the game? A guy who's scored 620 goals and counting? A guy who holds the all-time record for PP goals? A guy who scored points when his team needed points, won faceoffs when his team needed someone to win faceoffs, and became a stellar defensive player when his team needed help on its shutdown line? A guy who's almost single-handedly turned around a struggling franchise by putting a group of clueless kids on his back and showing them the way to the post-season? All this despite the fact that he can't skate a lick?

Dave Andreychuk is what hockey is all about. If there's no room for a guy like him, then who wants to be in the Hall of Fame?

Wow incredible post

kudos

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01-10-2004, 02:40 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
There's no place in the HOF for a guy who's willing to park himself in front of the net and take a beating night after night for 20+ years? A guy who still may have the best hands in the game? A guy who's scored 620 goals and counting? A guy who holds the all-time record for PP goals? A guy who scored points when his team needed points, won faceoffs when his team needed someone to win faceoffs, and became a stellar defensive player when his team needed help on its shutdown line? A guy who's almost single-handedly turned around a struggling franchise by putting a group of clueless kids on his back and showing them the way to the post-season? All this despite the fact that he can't skate a lick?

Dave Andreychuk is what hockey is all about. If there's no room for a guy like him, then who wants to be in the Hall of Fame?
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
Dave Andreychuk and Dino Cicarrelli are what hockey is all about.


Btw... I'd like to bring up a name...

Doug Gilmour? I mean, we all love the guy... he DOES have 1400 points in his career. Is he HHOF Material?

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01-10-2004, 03:20 AM
  #67
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Stars have one lock in Modano and 2 questionable's in Lehtinen and Turgeon.

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01-10-2004, 03:28 AM
  #68
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I think Selänne pretty much warranted himself a place in the HHOF during his rookie season. He hasn't done anything that would make him a hall-of-famer since that, but he does have one of the unbreakable records, 76 goals and 132 points as a rookie. Pretty hard to argue against that.

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01-10-2004, 03:46 AM
  #69
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I'm pretty sure Sergei Fedorov is a lock for the hall of fame. He's won some nice awards, he has three stanley cup rings, he's going to be the first Russian player to record 1000 points(since Sasha Mogilny is injured, even though Mogilny is about six points closer) he's always been known as a solid two way player. Plus he is still only 34 so he has several good years left to add to those point totals.

Igor Larionov will make it as well.

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01-10-2004, 06:23 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Yzerman
Hull
Shanny
Hasek
Brodeur
Francis
Belfour
Sakic
Lidstrom
Larionov
Stevens
Andreychuk
add Jagr and Robitaille and I'm satisfied.

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01-10-2004, 06:37 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eh
I think Selänne pretty much warranted himself a place in the HHOF during his rookie season. He hasn't done anything that would make him a hall-of-famer since that, but he does have one of the unbreakable records, 76 goals and 132 points as a rookie. Pretty hard to argue against that.
One rookie season doesn't make him a hall of famer.

He's going to be 34 years old before he hits 1000 points. Selanne's got as much of a chance as Mogilny, but even then... Mogilny's won a cup.

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01-10-2004, 07:29 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Ron Francis, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull and Mark Messier are without a doubt hall of famers.

Joe Sakic, Brendan Shanahan, Jaromir Jagr and Scott Stevens are right behind them.
Stevens right behind them??? Dude he's there, no question about it.

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01-10-2004, 08:24 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
Dave Andreychuk and Dino Cicarrelli are what hockey is all about.


Btw... I'd like to bring up a name...

Doug Gilmour? I mean, we all love the guy... he DOES have 1400 points in his career. Is he HHOF Material?

Doug Gilmour should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame, IMO. It should not even be a discussion.

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01-10-2004, 09:41 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eh
I think Selänne pretty much warranted himself a place in the HHOF during his rookie season. He hasn't done anything that would make him a hall-of-famer since that, but he does have one of the unbreakable records, 76 goals and 132 points as a rookie. Pretty hard to argue against that.
Hasn't done anything since his rookie season? During the Ducks years he was one of the two or three best wingers in the game. Was nominated for the Hart trophy, won the Richard trophy, All-Star a number of times over. His Ducks years were definitely Hall-worthy. Just so happens he played it in California and with the Ducks, so it was all done very quietly (and in the shadow of Paul Kariya as team poster boy).

Selanne didn't start in the league till he was 23, so the fact that hell be 34 before he hits 1000 points means little. Approx 450 goals and 950 points in 840 is nothing to slough off. Mogilny and Selanne have fairly similar numbers, but Selanne's played 100 less games. When comparing the two people tend to forget Mogilny's shaky seasons with Vancouver...Selanne's production has dipped lately, whereas Mogilny's has picked up, so Selanne is perceived as the lesser player. Selanne's never had real shot with a Cup-ready team until now (although the Sharks team that was a game from the West finals was quite good), so the Cup win really isn't a fair comparison.

We'll see, but if Mogilny makes it, Selanne definitely has to make it.


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01-10-2004, 09:42 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm
Doug Gilmour should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame, IMO. It should not even be a discussion.
Definitely, no chance he doesn't get in. None.

kenabnrmal is offline  
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