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Trotz and Line Philosophy

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Old
09-25-2007, 09:21 AM
  #1
vopatsrash
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Trotz and Line Philosophy

Interesting item for discussion in this article...

"Predators Coach Barry Trotz has really come to like particular pairings this preseason.

Jason Arnott and J.P. Dumont have become a lethal first line duo, Martin Erat and David Legwand have continued to build on last season's chemistry, and newcomers Radek Bonk and Martin Gelinas have shown a particular flair together.

The rest of training camp will be used to determine which players best complement those pairings."


So...

Legwand-Erat-
Arnott-Dumont-
Bonk-Gelinas-
Nichol-Smithson-Hordichuk-Tootoo (3 of the 4 depending on injuries/opponent)

Plug in Radulov, Ortmeyer, Fiddler.

Radulov
Prediction: I have a feeling Radulov will get off to a slow start and Trotz will have him in some situations that will have us all going nuts (like Nichol-Tootoo-Radulov) and eventually he’ll figure it out and get hot and settle in with a line. I predict Arnott-Dumont.

Fiddler
I like Fiddler, he’s a solid and versatile depth guy. The only thing we really know is that with Trotz and Fids, you just need to figure out what line he should be on and bump him up a line.

The question this article really brings up is should Trotz put 3 skill guys on one line, and 2 good guys on the other two lines and spread out the skill, or should he pack 6 skill guys on 2 lines and have 2 grinder lines? Should Gelinas and Radulov be on the top 2 lines and have a Bonk-Fiddler-Ortmeyer shut down line? Or could Fiddler put in 15-20 goals with steady time on the 1-2 line just by association?

Imo, putting Fiddler with the likes of Kariya and Sullivan and Forsberg have showcased Fiddler’s weaknesses in the past. I’ve seen many a beautiful wasted pass to Fiddler. But, we don’t have that kind of dynamic skill right now and maybe Fiddler would thrive playing on the Arnott-Dumont line or Bonk-Gelinas line where there is the type of skill that can create chances for him but not skill that is too fast or dynamic for Fiddler to handle.

So what does everyone think? Pack Radulov, Erat, Legwand, Arnott, Dumont, and Gelinas on 2 lines, or build around 3 pairs?

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09-25-2007, 10:29 AM
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hipcheck85
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I would like to see us start out with

Legwand-Erat-Radulov
Arnott-Dumont-Fiddler
Bonk-Gelinas-Ortmeyer
Nichol-Smithson-Hordichuk

Tootoo

I could see Trotz doing his line swapping routine and swapping Radulov and Ortmeyer

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09-25-2007, 11:06 AM
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IMO, we just don't have the shear talent to have 3 scoring lines.

I like the checking line role that can chip in offensively with Bonk and Gelinas much better.

That being said, you know that Trotz NEEDS to tinker with the lines.....it is in his genetic makeup.
I would much rather him be doing it now for the first time, in preseason, rather than when we hit our first bump in the road and lose two straight.

I think that it won't take long for wily veterans like Bonk and Gelinas to make the best use of Radulov on their line, and that familiarity should help in any PP situations that they may find themselves together in, in the future.

Also, if Ortmeyer is being tried with Legwand and Erat it means that Tootoo is not, which is a good thing.
Give Ortmeyer the chance to prove he has anything different than stone hands here in preseason.

And on the Fiddler note, I am no Fiddler fan, but I recall seeing more "beautiful wasted passes" to Kariya than Fiddler last year. I think he has done all that you can ask of him so far this preseason with Arnott and Dumont in Sully's absence. I also think he has complimented those two well so far by being the first one in to dig out the puck and has shown good hockey sense to be at the right place at the right time at the net to be on the receiving end of their skill.
Fiddler gets more than his share of grief around here. His versatility is a HUGE asset, in my mind.

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09-25-2007, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
I recall seeing more "beautiful wasted passes" to Kariya than Fiddler last year.

Fiddler gets more than his share of grief around here. His versatility is a HUGE asset, in my mind.
Amen to both of those points.

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09-25-2007, 12:09 PM
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OLE line - Ortmeyer, Legwand, Erat ("Ole Ole" - said the matador to the bull)

RADical line - Radulov, Arnott, Dumont

Great Balls of Fire line - Gelinas, Bonk, Fiddler

SH_T line - Smithson, Hordichuk, Tootoo (I know Hordy is not a center, but HST doesn't have the same panache)

...maybe the SNoT line of Smithson, Nichol, and Tootoo would work? (as in beating the snot out of the competition)

Thoughts?

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09-25-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredDave View Post
OLE line - Ortmeyer, Legwand, Erat ("Ole Ole" - said the matador to the bull)

RADical line - Radulov, Arnott, Dumont

Great Balls of Fire line - Gelinas, Bonk, Fiddler

SH_T line - Smithson, Hordichuk, Tootoo (I know Hordy is not a center, but HST doesn't have the same panache)

...maybe the SNoT line of Smithson, Nichol, and Tootoo would work? (as in beating the snot out of the competition)

Thoughts?
Radulov is a Right wing so he can't play with Arnott, and Dumont. That's why we have been seeing more of Fiddler with Arnott and Dumont. My question is if Gelinas and Bonk are doing better than expected offensively would it be better to experiment with an offensive RW player than just sticking Ortmeyer and creating the GOB line? I honestly don't think Tootoo will get a lot of playing time. I think he's going to be gones before the trading deadline.

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10-02-2007, 11:34 AM
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Not True

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Radulov is a Right wing so he can't play with Arnott, and Dumont. That's why we have been seeing more of Fiddler with Arnott and Dumont. My question is if Gelinas and Bonk are doing better than expected offensively would it be better to experiment with an offensive RW player than just sticking Ortmeyer and creating the GOB line? I honestly don't think Tootoo will get a lot of playing time. I think he's going to be gones before the trading deadline.
There were times last season where Radulov played with Arnott and Dumont, and the line looked very good. I am pretty sure that Dumont can play both wings.

Prior to the Sullivan relapse, I was thinking that Sullivan would play with Erat and Legwand. These three showed good chemistry once Sullivan came from Chicago at the end of the season.

I also feel that Radulov, Arnott and Dumont looked good together as well.

With the injury to Sullivan, I believe that the Preds are in desperate need of a guy that can play with Arnott and Dumont until Sullivan returns.

The lines shoule be

??-arnott-dumont
erat-legwand-radulov
gelinas-bonk-fiddler
ortmeyer-smithson-tootoo

I guy like Cajanek, who has been waived could work, but not sure if Preds want to pick up that salary. He is versatile and can play on all 3 lines.

Another guy, Mike Johnson, is currently trying out with the Blues. He could work as well.

A move is definitely needed, the question is, will the Preds be willing to dish out anymore money.

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10-03-2007, 09:15 AM
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Speaking of Trotz, I wanted to open up a little more discussion on him.

At the end of last year, we all had many debates on whether or not Trotz should stay after our end of the year collapse. As we know, Trotz was given another deal for the upcoming season. I wonder how much Poile knew about the ownership issue when making the decision to keep Trotz and whether or not that would have a huge effect on the signing of Trotz. If Poile knew about the ownership issue and the fact that he'd have to shed salary, keeping Trotz on board made sense. Keeping Trotz would provide some stability and who knows how hard of a time Poile would have in finding another coach.

Saying that, what happens with Trotz by the end of the year in your guys opinion? Does he get a free pass, since the team has been gutted? Does the team's performance even get considered?

I'm not trying to turn this into a bash Trotz or turn it into the usual Fire-Keep debate. I just want to see some others opinions on what Poile's philosophy is going to be.

I do think this team fits in more with Trotz's mindset, a more grinding, hardworking team. (How he handles it, well thats a different thread ).

And while we're on the subject, are we even sure Poile will remain here?

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10-03-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Speaking of Trotz, I wanted to open up a little more discussion on him.

At the end of last year, we all had many debates on whether or not Trotz should stay after our end of the year collapse. As we know, Trotz was given another deal for the upcoming season. I wonder how much Poile knew about the ownership issue when making the decision to keep Trotz and whether or not that would have a huge effect on the signing of Trotz. If Poile knew about the ownership issue and the fact that he'd have to shed salary, keeping Trotz on board made sense. Keeping Trotz would provide some stability and who knows how hard of a time Poile would have in finding another coach.

Saying that, what happens with Trotz by the end of the year in your guys opinion? Does he get a free pass, since the team has been gutted? Does the team's performance even get considered?

I'm not trying to turn this into a bash Trotz or turn it into the usual Fire-Keep debate. I just want to see some others opinions on what Poile's philosophy is going to be.

I do think this team fits in more with Trotz's mindset, a more grinding, hardworking team. (How he handles it, well thats a different thread ).

And while we're on the subject, are we even sure Poile will remain here?
I don't know if I'd say Trotz's retention was SOLELY based on the ownership situation, but I would definitely say it was a major factor.

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10-03-2007, 11:14 AM
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I agree with NMK, it had to be a factor, but mayeb not the dominant one.
As for Poile, I think he can afford to ride out the year. DP is a coveted GM, well respected around the league. In my mind, there is a definite possibility he would be a candidate for the Leafs job if they lose patience with Ferguson, or any other GM job that opens up this year. I would not blame him for going to a more stable situation if this roller coaster keeps up around here. He has built a strong farm system and managed assets very well for Nashville.

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10-03-2007, 02:05 PM
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vopatsrash
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I got the feeling around the time of the draft that Poile was really frustrated with the situation and wanted out. Then, it seemed like his general attitude and outlook improved once he realized that the team might stay and probably wouldn’t let other teams talk to him (around the ticket-thon). I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him leave if this team moves or is a lame duck. I think he’d want to and I think they’d let him.

Here are the scenarios in which Trotz gets fired, imo…
-If this team is healthy and wins fewer than 8 of their first 20.
-The team makes the playoffs and loses in the first round. (unless they fight and scratch to the 8th seed, play mighty Detroit in the first round, scratch and claw to take them to 7 games and lose in OT in game 7).
-The team is generally healthy, hangs around the 6-9 seed most of the season, then finishes 2-10 or something to be 12th.
-The team is in first place for the entire season, goes to complete crap in March and misses the playoffs completely (I’m a Mets fan…I had to include that scenario…)

Here are the scenarios in which Trotz retains his job, imo
-If there are multiple major injuries (in addition to Sully) and they start with about 4-9 wins out of the first 20, but play with a lot of grit, effort, and fight, he will get the benefit of the doubt.
-the team advances past the first round of the playoffs.
-The team has a normal to high amount of injuries/adversity, fights and claws admirably and finishes 9th in the west, a point or two out of 8th.

Imo, any scenario where he retains his job, despite not advancing past the first round of the playoffs will include having to replace at least one assistant.

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10-03-2007, 02:18 PM
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I'll say this, slotting Radulov on the third line with Gelinas and Bonk, while putting Fiddler on the top line and Ortmeyer on the second line is one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen. Why does Trotz continue to do this year in and year out?

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10-03-2007, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I'll say this, slotting Radulov on the third line with Gelinas and Bonk, while putting Fiddler on the top line and Ortmeyer on the second line is one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen. Why does Trotz continue to do this year in and year out?
Maybe thats the reason.

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10-03-2007, 10:40 PM
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Underpinning everything is the Trotz belief that it is better to give a player something too late rather than too early, so that a player in his system (in theory) is forced to be responsible and to check the ego at the door even at the expense of production.

You certainly can argue it is the wrong strategy/ theory but I wouldn't call it dumb.

For instance, one could argue that Legwand would be a much bigger scorer in a different system-- I would argue that he wouldn't be a solid two-way player in many systems and might not check his ego. I think Legwand will be a better player in the long run for it.

To contrast, I think Trotz never completely "broke" Hartnell but I would expect Hartnell to excel anyway with the Flyers.

People may not like the comparison, but to me it's a bit like Lou Lamarello and the Devil's system-- obviously without the amount of success to date.

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10-03-2007, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I'll say this, slotting Radulov on the third line with Gelinas and Bonk, while putting Fiddler on the top line and Ortmeyer on the second line is one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen. Why does Trotz continue to do this year in and year out?
To be fair, the combo of Arnott, Dumont and Fiddler has not looked as bad this year as it did last year...in preseason.

Generally I agree that I would rather have Radu with Erat/Legwand. But the more I think about it, I like that someone would go into the corners and work his ass off to get the puck to Leggy/Erat for the goals.

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10-03-2007, 11:48 PM
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... and Bonk and Gelinas might be crafty enough to set up Rads on a regular basis, in which case we spread our scoring between 3 lines. In fact, they may be responsible enough that he can go for those Sully-like early breaks in hopes of getting the long bomb breakaway.

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10-04-2007, 06:55 AM
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I think some of this issue about Rads starting on the 3rd line is to light a fire under Rad's butt.....and I don't think he will remain there that long. I also think the wily veteran combo of Gelinas and Bonk will find a way to get him the puck.

I found it interesting in the article sighted below that [i]"We just didn't feel like there was a lot of chemistry when Rad was with the other two lines,'' Coach Barry Trotz said. "We talked about it with our staff and also with some of the guys on the lines. They just didn't feel like they were meshing very well./i]

"It's probably the right thing to do right now. It doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. Rad's got to find his game.''

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs..../1028/SPORTS02

I don't think it is a bad idea at all to let Rads start out with Bonk and Gelinas.
On the other hand, having a grinder [Fids and Ortmeyer] on the first two lines will have to produce some serious results to make a believer out of me, however.

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