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All-Time Draft #8, Part III

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Old
10-06-2007, 05:17 AM
  #51
Nalyd Psycho
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Another kick in the junk...Thanks Nalyd
Not possible, I'm still in a ball on the floor after getting kicked there.

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Old
10-06-2007, 05:30 AM
  #52
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say, Evil Speaker, do you know how ultimate hockey got its info about players and decided who was the best, etc?
Somwhere in there I think they said Jesus Christ ...but seriously, there were 3 authors of the book, Glenn Weir, Jeff Chapman, and Travis Weir. In ther 'acknowledgments' page there are alot of names mentioned from around the hockey world. Hockey historians, statisticians and veteran hockey fans. I'm not exactly sure how they decided on the retroactive trophy winners and such, but it was likely from a vast team effort. Maybe BM67 can better answer your question..

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10-06-2007, 05:34 AM
  #53
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Somwhere in there I think they said Jesus Christ ...but seriously, there were 3 authors of the book, Glenn Weir, Jeff Chapman, and Travis Weir. In their 'acknowledgments' page there are alot of names mentioned from around the hockey world. Hockey historians, statisticians and veteran hockey fans. I'm not exactly sure how they decided on the retroactive trophy winners and such, but it was likely from a vast team effort. Maybe BM67 can better answer your question..
ok, thank you.

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Old
10-06-2007, 05:45 AM
  #54
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I can tell you that they likely did not use arbitrary statistical rating systems like pnep and Ogopogo use. They do research like most of the rest of us, by using relative statistics, all-star selections, award voting, video tapes and other 'reliable' historical documents.

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10-06-2007, 06:32 AM
  #55
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The Regina Wildhearts are proud to select Hart and Art Ross winner, and all-around elite franchise center, Joe Thornton.

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10-06-2007, 09:32 AM
  #56
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The New Jersey Devils are pleased to add a strong two-way player in a forgotten legend, a 10 time all-star in the PCHA, WCHL/WHL, "The Wee Scot"

Duncan "Mickey" MacKay

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A marvelous skater and goal scorer, Duncan "Mickey" MacKay was blessed with instinct and timing on the ice that was matched by few contemporaries. A star rover and center in a number of leagues during his career, he was particularly successful in the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, where his offensive heroics made him one of the Vancouver Millionaires' most popular stars.

In 1914 McKay was signed by the Vancouver Millionaires of the PCHA and he quickly embarked on the most fruitful period of his hockey career. MacKay dazzled the West Coast fans with a three-goal effort in his first league game on December 8, 1914, playing on a line with Frank Nighbor and Ken Mallen. His 33 goals in 17 games as a rookie exceeded all other rivals. During the Stanley Cup victory over Ottawa, MacKay continued to impress with four goals in the three-game series that his team dominated.

The scoring exploits of MacKay didn't abate during the coming years. He was sensational during Vancouver's heartbreaking loss to the Toronto Arenas in the 1918 Stanley Cup series, scoring five goals in as many games playing as a rover and right wing.
- HHoF Bio

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Born Duncan McMillan MacKay in Chesley Ontario, in 1894, by the time "Mickey" MacKay's playing days were over, he would be the all-time leading scorer in the Pacific Coast Hockey Association and would have been a member of two Stanley Cup winning teams.

Nicknamed "The Wee Scot", Mickey MacKay was just five-foot, nine inches tall and tipped the scales a 162 pounds. A gentleman on and off the ice, MacKay was a terror to opposing players and goaltenders with his speed, stick-handling abilities and his quick, accurate shot.
- BC Hockey Hall of Fame

Quote:
Hart: PCHA: 1915, 1923; Selke: PCHA: 1921, 1922, 1923; Art Ross: PCHA: 1915, 1924; WCHL: 1925

The Twenties
Best Stickhandler
Mickey MacKay was a master at handling the wood and rubber. Some say that MacKay was the single largest hockey influence on Fank Nighbor. The "wee Scot" was also a fabously frustrating poke-checker.

Duncan "Mickey" MacKay dazzled west coast audiences with his trademark blazing speed and unparalleled agility. One of the greatest rovers/centers of his time, history hasn't immortalized "The Wee Scot" quite like it has the man he was most often compared to - Cyclone Taylor
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When discussing the best stick-handlers of all-time, many names spring to mind - Mario Lemieux, Denis Savard, Jean Beliveau, Gilbert Perreault. But don't forget Mickey MacKay. Duncan McMillan "Mickey" MacKay was an expert handler of the disc during his 16 year career. He still tops the PCHA's all-time scoring list with 290 points in 247 games. And although he rivaled the great Cyclone Taylor as the best in the West, MacKay has drifted into obscurity.

An offensive genius, Mackay was a clean and gentlemanly player and a fine defensive forward, who was often asked to play rover so he could poke check to frustration.
- Ultimate Hockey

Quote:
He was the most polished stickhandler who ever played in the P.C.H.A. He led the goal scorers three times and is one of the select company who scored over two hundred goals in his career. He was a very unselfish player and set up many goals for others to score.

In the 1918 Cup finals at Toronto, the critics rated him as a better player than his teammate Fred Taylor. He was a very popular player with fans and enthusiasm ran high when he stepped on the ice in important games.

A very clean player, he was a phenomenal stickhandler and was idolized in the west. Modest and unassuming he had no hesitation in setting up other players for goals that he might have scored himself. In many ways he was like Frank Nighbor.
- The Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1

"MacKay was perhaps the greatest center we ever had on the coast." - Frank Patrick

"MacKay was a great crowd pleaser. He was clean, splendidly courageous, a happy player with a stylish way of going. He was sensational in making quick breakaways. He was a sure shot alone with the goalie. He could handle his stick and was almost as good a hook-check as Frank Nighbor. MacKay was one of those who helped make pro hockey a great game. He was outstanding in every way." - Lester Patrick

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10-06-2007, 09:44 AM
  #57
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The New Jersey Devils are pleased to select the man credited with introducing the hook check to hockey

Jack Walker

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He turned pro at the start of the 1912-13 season with the Toronto Blueshirts of the NHA but jumped ship after one game and traveled East to finish out the season with the Moncton Victorias of the Maritime Pro Hockey League. He was back in Toronto the following season and led the league with 16 assists in 20 games as the Blueshirts captured the Stanley Cup, the first of three in Walker's career.

He went West after completing the 1914-15 season with Toronto and hooked up with the Seattle Metropolitans of the PCHA, playing with the Mets for nine years, from 1915 to 1924. During that time he was noted as being an outstanding defensive forward and his play won him selections to the PCHA First All-Star Team in 1921, 1922, and 1924, to go with previous Second Team honours he received in 1917, 1919, and 1920. He played on his second Stanley Cup champion team while with Seattle in 1916-17 as the Mets became the first United States based team to win the Cup.

In 1924-25, Seattle dropped out of the PCHA, leaving the league with franchises in Vancouver and Victoria. These two clubs joined the Western Canada Hockey League and Walker signed with the Victoria Cougars on November 10, 1924. He led the league in penalty minutes with the modest total of 14, in 28 games played that season. More importantly, however, the Cougars went on to win the Stanley Cup when they defeated the Montreal Canadiens three games to one in the spring of 1925. The Cougars were the last non-NHL team to win the Cup. Walker had now won the Stanley Cup three times with three different teams in three different leagues.
- HHoF Bio

Quote:
1924-25 Jack Walker - Victoria
Led Victoria shooters with four goals and five points in the final. Had the game-winning goal in game one and two goals in game two. Had the first goal in each of the first two games and four unassisted tallies. He also had goals in each of the four league playoff games to reach the finals. Great sweep-check also limited the Canadiens scoring chances.
- Would-be Conn Smythe

Quote:
Selke: NHA: 1914; PCHA: 1916, 1917, 1918, 1920, 1924; WCHL: 1925

The Tens
Best Defensive Forward
Jack Walker was for many years the best defensive forward in the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, perhaps in all of hockey.
Best Shadow
Jack Walker shut down many a top gun with his jabbing poke-checks and sweeping hooks. Lalonde, Pitre, Morenz, Joliat... the "Old Fox" had their numbers.

Walker joined the Victoria Cougars for 1924-25 and figured in yet another Cup win, scoring four goals and two assists in four contests against the Montreal Canadiens. In that series, he shut down superstar Howie Morenz.

During his playing days and later as a coach, Walker spent hours helping the rookies, teaching them the art of the hook-check. Walker was as good at poke-checking as Frank Nighbor was.
- Ultimate Hockey

Quote:
This fine player is best remembered for his uncanny skill as a hook check artist and in this respect he was rival of Frank Nighbor.

In the Stanley Cup series that followed with Canadiens, the famed line of Morenz, Joliat and Boucher found Walker and his hookcheck the stumbling block. The veteran broke up their attacks time after time and scored four goals in the series and the Cougars won the Cup.

This small clean-playing but aggressive player was on seven championship teams, in as many Cup series and three Stanley Cup winners.
- The Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 1

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Old
10-06-2007, 09:59 AM
  #58
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I dunno if Nalyd has PMed anyone a list, but please hold off on picking for the Seals if he has. We'll get things sorted out quickly (this won't be a nine hour ordeal, I promise), but we need just a moment. Thanks.

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10-06-2007, 11:07 AM
  #59
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Great to see Barry and Dillon finally picked right about where they belong. Two excellent offensive forwards who are perfect for second line duty.

We all know about Barry. Outstanding offensive centre. Maybe the best one still available. Dillon is very underrated - one of the best players not in the HHOF, IMO.

Very surprising to see Thornton picked this late. Again, I think it's where he belongs (and he should be behind Marty Barry).

BTW, I should be around pretty much all weekend for anyone heading out of town/with family commitments who needs to PM a list to me.


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 10-06-2007 at 11:12 AM.
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Old
10-06-2007, 11:35 AM
  #60
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I apologize for the delay, but we were not counting on Marty Barry disappearing one pick before us in the 10th. Oh well. Luckily, there was another high-end offensive center still out there who I almost didn't notice because he's already slipped so far...

The Oakland Seals are very pleased to select probably the last guy to be picked who has a statue erected in his honor, a hall of famer who knows what it means to play in Wayne Gretzky's shadow and the consensus third greatest hockey-playing Bernie of all time, centerman Bernie "The Magician" Federko.

Gretzky and Federko give the Seals the greatest 1-2 punch of playmaking, behind-the-net-camping Ukranian-descended centermen in the history of history. My grandmother would be so proud of me right now. Not really sure how Federko slipped this far, but like I said, I nearly overlooked him, myself, whilst preparing a letterbomb for nik jr. and agent dale. Ah well, securing a second line center of Bernie's talents takes away the sting of the previous blow to the Seals' collective testicles.

Federko's scoring achievements (five times in the top-10 in points, seven times top-10 in assists) are all the more impressive when one considers how dreadful his Blues were for many of the seasons in which he played in St. Louis. Had he played in any other time, Federko might have a legitimate claim to being the greatest playmaker of his era. The only consistent offensive "help" Federko had in his career was Brian Sutter, and he's really more of a 3rd liner in this format. The concept of a second line in St. Louis for much of the 80's was laughable considering that the franchise didn't even have a farm system for a couple of years. For the record, in addition to his scoring feats among the NHL leaders, Federko led the Blues in scoring nine times, eight of them consecutively, and almost every one of them by a wide margin.

Also worth noting is Federko's playoff record. Although he obviously never won a Cup, Bernie's 101 points in 91 career playoff games is bloody impressive, especially considering the underdog status of many of those Blues teams. He led the team in playoff scoring six times and basically carried the Blues on his back on several occasions. He even led the NHL in playoff scoring in 1986 (tied with teammate Doug Gilmour) despite the fact that the Blues were eliminated in the semi-finals.

I am very pleased to welcome Bernie Federko to Oakland.

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10-06-2007, 11:38 AM
  #61
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nik jr sent me a list. It pains me to say this, but he selects F Frank Foyston. He actually took the players I had hoped to nab with my next two picks.

I'll have my pick in a few minutes. I need to make a decision.

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10-06-2007, 12:03 PM
  #62
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Good pace so far today.

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10-06-2007, 12:05 PM
  #63
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pappy may hate me for this, but the Clippers are proud to select RW Ed Litzenberger.

A big and tall winger, Litzenberger had the unfortunate circumstance of playing his peak during an era with the stiffest RW competition likely in history (Howe, Richard, Geoffrion, and Bathgate all were post season All-Stars during his prime). He was a top-10 goal scorer 4 times, including 3 top-5 finishes and fits in nicely on our second line.


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10-06-2007, 12:08 PM
  #64
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pappy may hate me for this, but the Clippers are proud to select RW Ed Litzenberger.

A big and tall winger, Litzenberger had the unfortunate circumstance in playing his peak during an era with the stiffest RW competition likely in history (Howe, Richard, Geoffrion, and Bathgate all were post season All-Stars during his prime). He was a top-10 goal scorer 4 times, including 3 top-5 finishes and fits in nicely on our second line.
I had the feeling he would be gone for my pick, would have been a good fit on my 2nd line -- and Anderson would not have been out of place on my 3rd either.

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10-06-2007, 12:11 PM
  #65
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I had the feeling he would be gone for my pick, would have been a good fit on my 2nd line -- and Anderson would not have been out of place on my 3rd either.
Word for word, my sentiments exactly.

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10-06-2007, 12:34 PM
  #66
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Great to see Barry and Dillon finally picked right about where they belong. Two excellent offensive forwards who are perfect for second line duty.

We all know about Barry. Outstanding offensive centre. Maybe the best one still available. Dillon is very underrated - one of the best players not in the HHOF, IMO.

Very surprising to see Thornton picked this late. Again, I think it's where he belongs (and he should be behind Marty Barry).

BTW, I should be around pretty much all weekend for anyone heading out of town/with family commitments who needs to PM a list to me.
Looks like we're having a little run on 2nd line-types eligible at center.

By talent, Joe Thornton probably belongs where he went in ATD#7, but he just hasn't had that long of a peak yet. Really only three dominant seasons so far. Considering he's only 28, I've no doubt that by the end of his career Big Joe will be a justifiable 6th - 8th rounder (or higher, if he can beat Crosby, et al out for some more hardware), but right now he's not. I wouldn't take him over Marty Barry and I wouldn't have taken him over Federko, either.

Cecil Dillon is a guy that's hard not to like. Great goalscorer and a guy who won a Conn-Smythe as a third liner in a checking role; he can pretty much do it all. Playing on a line with Kariya and Federko should make the most of his goal-scoring abilities, and like Syd Howe on the Gretzky line, he gives Oakland's 2nd line a solid defensive conscience.

Anyone who was counting on the really underrated players dropping this time around has got to be hurting.

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10-06-2007, 12:41 PM
  #67
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Looks like we're having a little run on 2nd line-types eligible at center.

By talent, Joe Thornton probably belongs where he went in ATD#7, but he just hasn't had that long of a peak yet. Really only three dominant seasons so far. Considering he's only 28, I've no doubt that by the end of his career Big Joe will be a justifiable 6th - 8th rounder (or higher, if he can beat Crosby, et al out for some more hardware), but right now he's not. I wouldn't take him over Marty Barry and I wouldn't have taken him over Federko, either.
He would also need to be barely average in playoffs to reach 6th or 8th round.

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10-06-2007, 12:46 PM
  #68
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pappy may hate me for this, but the Clippers are proud to select RW Ed Litzenberger.

A big and tall winger, Litzenberger had the unfortunate circumstance of playing his peak during an era with the stiffest RW competition likely in history (Howe, Richard, Geoffrion, and Bathgate all were post season All-Stars during his prime). He was a top-10 goal scorer 4 times, including 3 top-5 finishes and fits in nicely on our second line.
My all time fav player. I took a gamble and lost. He was my next pick at #289. At least he is being appreciated by others. I will know to pick him earlier next draft. Note the change in avatar.

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10-06-2007, 12:52 PM
  #69
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He would also need to be barely average in playoffs to reach 6th or 8th round.
As a Sharks fan (though perhaps not as an ATD GM), I feel the need to defend Thornton's playoff record. With the exception of his broken-rib goose egg in 2004 with the Bruins, Joe's playoff performances have been allright. By "allright" I mean that he has shown up and played acceptably well, though I don't think we've seen him elevate his game and carry a team yet. Thornton hasn't exactly been a playoff menace thus far in his career, but I think he gets a bum rap from a lot of Bruins fans who could never deal with the fact that he's not Cam Neely.

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10-06-2007, 01:13 PM
  #70
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As a Sharks fan (though perhaps not as an ATD GM), I feel the need to defend Thornton's playoff record. With the exception of his broken-rib goose egg in 2004 with the Bruins, Joe's playoff performances have been allright. By "allright" I mean that he has shown up and played acceptably well, though I don't think we've seen him elevate his game and carry a team yet. Thornton hasn't exactly been a playoff menace thus far in his career, but I think he gets a bum rap from a lot of Bruins fans who could never deal with the fact that he's not Cam Neely.
As an Hab fan, I was pretty happy with Big Joe's performance the last time they faced the Bruins, actually.
He will continue to play, and get some solid seasons... Even if he never amounts to anything good in the playoffs, he could be drafted on the basis of his reg. seasons performance alone, because he is that talented. But so far, his peak is short, his career is short... Worth of a 2nd C spot in the lineup probably at this point, who's gonna need help from a solid 1st line (or at least extremely solid 1st C) playoff-wise.

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10-06-2007, 01:18 PM
  #71
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As an Hab fan, I was pretty happy with Big Joe's performance the last time they faced the Bruins, actually.
He will continue to play, and get some solid seasons... Even if he never amounts to anything good in the playoffs, he could be drafted on the basis of his reg. seasons performance alone, because he is that talented. But so far, his peak is short, his career is short... Worth of a 2nd C spot in the lineup probably at this point, who's gonna need help from a solid 1st line (or at least extremely solid 1st C) playoff-wise.
Well, Joe was injured that year. And while most players are playing with pain by the time the playoffs roll around, Joe was battling a serious injury that would have sidelined him for six weeks if it had happened in November.

But Thornton's post-season record is underwhelming. For a player of his calibre, he should be better. He hasn't been bad the last couple years, but when the Sharks needed him to elevate his game in the post-season (the truest mark of greatness), especially when a certain teammate's game went south in the second round the last two years, Thornton did not.

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10-06-2007, 01:25 PM
  #72
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Well, Joe was injured that year.
He wasn't injured both years, neither he was when his team faced the Devils in between.

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10-06-2007, 02:09 PM
  #73
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Wow...because I like to know a lot of details about the careers of the guys I pick, I've been looking over the rosters of those 80's Blues teams for which Federko carried the banner. It's almost disturbing how bad they were, much like Bathgate's Rangers. We could put those two together and call it the "Lonely Hearts Club Line".

I've got a fun game: Let's Name the Blues' Second-Leading Scorer!

Here's how it works...we pick a peak year Federko was in St. Louis (except for 86-87..stupid Doug Gilmour) and I name the Blues' leading scorer and how many points he put up, then you name the Blues' second-leading scorer and how many points he scored. It's hours of fun for the whole family! Or...I could just do it myself. It is perhaps a bizarre tactic to illustrate how good a player is by ripping on his team, but the incompetence of those Blues teams is really quite striking - so striking, in fact, that aside from Sutter, Mullen and Gilmour (already-drafted players who will show up on the list) I have no fear of listing the Blues' second-leading scorers during the Federko era because no GM would be crazy enough to even consider drafting these guys. Here goes:

NHL SeasonFederko's Point TotalSecond-Leading PlayerThat Guy's Point Total
78-7995Brian Sutter80
79-8094Mike Zuke64
80-81104Wayne Babych96
81-8292Blake Dunlop78
82-8384Brian Sutter76
83-84107Joe Mullen85
84-85103Joe Mullen92
85-86102Mark Hunter74
87-8889Doug Gilmour86

My apologies in advance to anyone who was planning on drafting Mike Zuke, Wayne Babych, Blake Dunlop or Mark Hunter. Were any of these guys even taken in the minor-league draft last time around? If so, I doubt they were deserving. A final note which I believe will help to put things in perspective: the infamous Robert Nordmark actually got his start on the Blues in 1987 and played regular shifts on the second pairing - this after St. Louis had allegedly "improved" (Gilmour, at least, was beginning to hit his stride).

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10-06-2007, 02:17 PM
  #74
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My apologies in advance to anyone who was planning on drafting Mike Zuke, Wayne Babych, Blake Dunlop or Mark Hunter. Were any of these guys even taken in the minor-league draft last time around?
I wouldn't be surprised if Mark Hunter would be drafted in an MLD, but picking him could be a reach. Tough, but there were some better 4th liners available.

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10-06-2007, 04:03 PM
  #75
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Good pace so far today.
Gah, thanks for cursing it.

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