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Old
10-09-2007, 05:41 PM
  #51
TomLaidlaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
Proctor, Worn out from being super effective to being a schlub
Viz, worn out from being effective, to being worthless down the stretch
Villone, destroyed LAST YEAR, from overuse by Joe


Joba would be in the same boat if those rules werent imposed on him.

I love joe for his personality and the way he handles the media, but hes a terrible bullpen manager.
Tanyon Sturtze too

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10-09-2007, 05:44 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by theMessiah1194 View Post
i hope the mets swipe up posada and or rivera if the yanks let them walk.
Might as well get A-rod after he opts out, get Bernie to come off the bench, fire Willie & hire Torre, it could be reunion tour 2008

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10-09-2007, 05:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
WHO'S Joe Torre?
Just some guy we all know.

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10-09-2007, 05:52 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
Proctor, Worn out from being super effective to being a schlub
Viz, worn out from being effective, to being worthless down the stretch
Villone, destroyed LAST YEAR, from overuse by Joe


Joba would be in the same boat if those rules werent imposed on him.

I love joe for his personality and the way he handles the media, but hes a terrible bullpen manager.
disagree. proctor was never super effective because he cant be. he will come into a game and walk batters left and right. viz was anything but worthless down the stretch. he was the yanks best pitcher after mo and joba. and how would villone be effected this year if torre over used him a year ago?

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10-09-2007, 08:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
imo you dont let a rod walk, hes not mr. october but he is an mvp and a good 3rd basemen. not to mention the best player in the league and you dont give him a chance to go to boston.

no way you let posada go that just stupid best season of his life and a top catcher in the league.
imo pettite should stay great numbers this year did good in the playoffs (even tough it was only one start, it was in clevland with the bugs) and moose wont be after kennedy and he might even be in front of joba.

the problem your gonna have with that lineup is run support, with guys like hughes kennedy and joba as a starter they need runs and you only have one 100 rbi guy in matsui who is as unclutch as anyone could be (this year). get rid of abreu and put cano 3rd is a good move, but you cant have wilson betemit as your number 5 hitter.
Sorry, but a 36 year old catcher is not going to have a slow decline, his decline is going to be fast and hard and while I truly appreciate what he has done for the Yankees, it's time to cut ties.

Maybe Betemit at #5 is a stretch, maybe not. That's not a power line-up of course, but I think that that line-up if used properly would have beaten this indians team.

Hit and runs, stealing constantly, working the count deep and when the power guys do get up, the HR's that are hit have more bite due to the on-base capabilities.

Moose is going to be lucky to have a spot at all. He's lost 3-4 mph of his already medicore fastball, the difference between his junk and his fastball is no longer enough to keep hitters off balance. His presence is solely as a Vet presense after Clemens and Pettit retires.

Time to blow this thing up because it is an abomination of what it once was.

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10-09-2007, 08:59 PM
  #56
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15-20 homers for Duncan I can see, but .280? He's a career .257 hitter in the minors and he doesn't walk a whole lot. He did have a nice season in AAA last year, but guys who hit 25 homers at that level are a dime a dozen. Both Thames and Rivera are league average outfielders at best, save for one good season each (and even then, it wasn't anything particularly special). I know there are late bloomers, but there is a reason why Duncan didn't debut until he was 28.

I'd take issue with the statement that Hughes has "established himself as an everyday guy." He oozes potential and looked pretty decent this season, but there's not a pitcher out there that can establish himself in just 13 games. The same goes for Ian Kennedy. I'm not arguing that these guys won't be good, because I'm confident that they all will. And I agree that they likely won't be worse than Kei Igawa et al, but when coupled with the serious downgrade in offense you suggest, the Yankees would struggle big time.
And for one season, how is that such a bad thing.

cut a $100 million from the team, allow for some growth for one season, then bring in players that can add to the Org. in those positions that are needed.

Taking a small step back (one year) for multi steps forward (years of contention) is at hand, the sooner the decision is made to make these tough decisions are made, the better.

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10-09-2007, 09:12 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And for one season, how is that such a bad thing.

cut a $100 million from the team, allow for some growth for one season, then bring in players that can add to the Org. in those positions that are needed.

Taking a small step back (one year) for multi steps forward (years of contention) is at hand, the sooner the decision is made to make these tough decisions are made, the better.
In my earlier post I said that I think the Yankees can contend for the division and rebuild at the same time. If it's at all possible to bring Andy Pettite back, I think it'd be wise. He could mentor the young pitchers and stabilize the staff. It might also be wise to bring in another middle of the rotation guy in case Mussina completely falls apart. With a rotation of Pettite-Wang-FA-Mussina, you have guaranteed one spot for say Philip Hughes. The second anyone else falters, call up Ian Kennedy (he's only pitched 80 innings above A+, some more seasoning would not harm his development). If Rivera leaves I'd give Joba a serious look at closer.

I agree that the kids need to gain experience for the future health of the franchise, but healthy competition cannot hurt and neither can having fall back options.

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10-09-2007, 09:22 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Sorry, but a 36 year old catcher is not going to have a slow decline, his decline is going to be fast and hard and while I truly appreciate what he has done for the Yankees, it's time to cut ties.

Maybe Betemit at #5 is a stretch, maybe not. That's not a power line-up of course, but I think that that line-up if used properly would have beaten this indians team.

Hit and runs, stealing constantly, working the count deep and when the power guys do get up, the HR's that are hit have more bite due to the on-base capabilities.

Moose is going to be lucky to have a spot at all. He's lost 3-4 mph of his already medicore fastball, the difference between his junk and his fastball is no longer enough to keep hitters off balance. His presence is solely as a Vet presense after Clemens and Pettit retires.

Time to blow this thing up because it is an abomination of what it once was.
for a catcher at 36 to put up those numbers is amazing. posada in theory should have started his decline already but instead he put up numbers worthy of a couple mvp votes. not to mention the leadership he brings. you dont give him a huge contract but you have to resign him. why wouldn't you want a great catcher like posada working with young pitchers like hughes joba and kennedy?

and should torre have benched posada to play molina, benched a rod to play betemit and benched abreau to play shelly duncan? the indians were a better team with more timely hitting, the line up wouldn't have mattered. matsui batting 4th is a disaster, you would get nothing but ground balls to 2nd and pop outs, and after matsui there is only one guy that will probably bat over .300 and thats melkey. you need more production after the 1 2 3 hitters.


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Old
10-09-2007, 09:36 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
WHO'S Joe Torre?
He's the guy who took over for Martin Lawrence as host of Def Comedy Jams.

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10-09-2007, 09:41 PM
  #60
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I disagree, Fletch

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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Cashman goes too.
Since Cashman has taken over (i.e. being able to overrule Tampa), he has done very good things (Igawa is a noteable exception). The Yankees have the best assortment of power arms than any organization. And that is even with the promotions of Chamberlain and Hughes. Sanchez, Melancon & Brackman all went under the knife of TJ surgery, but will be back mid-next year. The bullpen will be strengthened by the likes of Veres, Horne & Ohlendorf. For the outfield, Jackson is looming while Tabata remains a few years away. And there is still the kid from Venezuela that was signed (Jesus something or other/currently a catcher).

The point being is that the farm system is stocked and there will not be any need for reliance on broken down 34 year olds any more. The have the chips necessary to get themselves a Santana if it comes down to it. They also will be shedding quite a lot of money of the payroll in the next two years.

However, with young arms, comes the necessity to properly manage them. The "Jaba rules" were put into effect to protect the kid from Torre. Joe, for all of the good that he has done, has run the Yankees bullpen arms ragged in recent years. Earning his trust has been a curse (see Mendoza, Karsay, Sturtze, etc.). His reluctance to trust a better younger player is also an issue.

Let's not forget that ill-fated Red Sox series could have been completely different if Joe had not stubbornly clung to his "classy Yankees" vision and simply bunted each and every hitter against a one-legged Schiling, who could not possibly get off the mound to field all the bunts. Schilling need not have been the hero. He could have been forced from the game as he could not possibly keep charging in to field each and every bunt attempt.

There have also been some questionable stragety moves by Joe. The bottom line is that Cashman has done enough to stay on as a GM. Torre has done enough to stay on as a manager, but if the purported youth movement is for real, then a new direction may be the optimal way to go.

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10-09-2007, 09:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And for one season, how is that such a bad thing.

cut a $100 million from the team, allow for some growth for one season, then bring in players that can add to the Org. in those positions that are needed.

Taking a small step back (one year) for multi steps forward (years of contention) is at hand, the sooner the decision is made to make these tough decisions are made, the better.
It would be a great idea, but stienbrenner and most fans (unfortunatley) would never allow a step backward to rebuild. If they did we would have been doing that over the past two years. Also, for those who say Posada is in decline, that is true, but he is just as important to this team and pitching staff as anyone else. If he goes, Mo goes too.

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Old
10-09-2007, 09:58 PM
  #62
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haha, this is completely off topic now, I see either
1. Topic Closed
2. NY Yankees thread (Just renamed it)

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10-09-2007, 10:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PruBlue25 View Post
haha, this is completely off topic now, I see either
1. Topic Closed
2. NY Yankees thread (Just renamed it)
YEA, IT REALLY DID GO OFF THE RAILS A FEW PAGES BACK

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Old
10-09-2007, 10:54 PM
  #64
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My thoughts on Torre...I don't know why, but I still wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. He's been "almost fired" 75 times, why not make it 76?

The truth is, yes, he's a TERRIBLE manager of the bullpen. Always has been, but in recent years it has been alot worse. Look at Sunday when he pitched Joba for 2 innings in an 8-3 game. And the list of pitchers that he has burnt out is extensive - Sturtze, Proctor, Bruney, on and on and on.

And Guidry, for everything he's done for this organization as a player, is as much of a failure as a pitching coach as Rick Petersen is for the Mets.

Still, with all Torre's faults, he did a tremendous job of keeping this team together. Just the fact that they MADE the playoffs is an impressive feat.

Nevertheless, if this is the end, maybe it's time. Girardi would be at the top of the list for me because at least he's won manager of the year, I have questions about Mattingly's managerial ability.

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10-09-2007, 10:58 PM
  #65
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As a Red Sox fan (because this is a yankees thread now), i feel like im rooting for the NHL version of the Yankees in the Rangers this year with all the $.

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10-09-2007, 11:18 PM
  #66
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from another site, here was my offseason gameplan:


Ideally, here is how I would go.

Fire Torre and Guidry for sure. I dont think either of them are good or effective.

Hire Girardi, as your manager. Get a really good pitching coach.


Re-sign a-rod, give him whatever the heck he wants, just bring him back.

Bring back Jorge

Bring back Andy

Bring back Mo

Bring back Mienty

Let Abreu go

Let Rawjah go

Find a way to dump Giambi

Sign Hunter

Sign Nathan

Trade Kennedy, Tabata, Betances, etc for Santana (ok, im reaching BIG TIME here, since i dont think thats even close to being near enough to get him)


Thats it.


So your lineup would look like this:
LF Damon
CF Hunter
RF Cabrera

3B A-Rod
SS Jeter
2B Cano
1B Mient/Betemit/Duncan

C Posada


Starters:

LHP Santana
RHP Joba
LHP Andy
RHP Hughes
RHP Wang


Bullpen:

Farnsworthless, Ohlendorf, Nathan, Mo



Thats just me though.

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Old
10-09-2007, 11:19 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSchwab View Post
As a Red Sox fan (because this is a yankees thread now), i feel like im rooting for the NHL version of the Yankees in the Rangers this year with all the $.
I hate when people say the Rangers are still the team with all the money. The fact of the matter is that every single NHL team is under the same cap, so it's just a matter of how that money is used. It's not who has the most money, it's who uses the money the best.

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10-09-2007, 11:26 PM
  #68
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As I get older it becomes tougher to take the rangers and yankees losing. I'm only 22 in a few months.

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Old
10-09-2007, 11:29 PM
  #69
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In terms of a new pitching coach, I'd love Dave Duncan (since Shelley is already here, that couldn't hurt), but it's probably a package deal with him and LaRussa and to be honest, I don't want any part of Tony.

Abreu had a good season after a brutal start and he did manage 100 RBI, but I just don't know if he's worth the money. The one thing I like about him above all is his batters eye. It drives me absolutely insane when this team swings at the first pitch (I'm looking at you, Jorge).

I agree with Torii Hunter. I would LOVE to see him in pinstripes.

And I'm really coming around on keeping Joba in the bullpen. Hopefully the rotation goes like this:

1. Wang
2. Pettitte
3. Hughes
4. Kennedy
5. Potential back-of-the-rotation FA

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10-09-2007, 11:39 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danno2530 View Post
In terms of a new pitching coach, I'd love Dave Duncan (since Shelley is already here, that couldn't hurt), but it's probably a package deal with him and LaRussa and to be honest, I don't want any part of Tony.

Abreu had a good season after a brutal start and he did manage 100 RBI, but I just don't know if he's worth the money. The one thing I like about him above all is his batters eye. It drives me absolutely insane when this team swings at the first pitch (I'm looking at you, Jorge).

I agree with Torii Hunter. I would LOVE to see him in pinstripes.

And I'm really coming around on keeping Joba in the bullpen. Hopefully the rotation goes like this:

1. Wang
2. Pettitte
3. Hughes
4. Kennedy
5. Potential back-of-the-rotation FA


i assume youre talking to me with this post. looks good to me.

i HATE the job Guidry did this year as well.

Wang:Mechanical Problems
Hughes:Mechanical Problems
Moose:Mechanical Problems


when 3 of your 5 starters all suffer through mechanical problems for large stretches of the year...you arent doing your job.

And Wang hasnt been right since about the beginning of September. His hips have been flying open, and his arm slot is consistently down, thats causing the ball to flatten big time, meaning his usual down the middle sinker drops big time making guys swing, and beat it into the ground. his flat sinker is still in the center of the plate, but stays there, and gets hammered all over the park. Its been over a month, and Guidry hasnt corrected it. Either thats on him, or Wang is just the worst student ever.


i can keep going, but suffice it to say, ive been unhappy with a LOT of what ive seen from Guidry, seems like he should stick to making his bayou gumbo and not be around this pitching staff.

Honestly, i would NEVER have let Mel go. I thought that was a coach unfairly fired. Mel, and Zim are 2 guys ive always supported, WAY more than Joe. i was ticked both of them left

also, if it would be possible to get Santana w/o giving up Hughes or Joba, id do it.

Melky, Kennedy, Tabata, Betances, Sanchez, WHATEVER they want, but i want that guy who can strike out 12 guys in a game. and i want that guy to be a lefty. IMHO, Santana is that guy.

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10-09-2007, 11:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by danno2530 View Post
My thoughts on Torre...I don't know why, but I still wouldn't be surprised if he comes back. He's been "almost fired" 75 times, why not make it 76?

The truth is, yes, he's a TERRIBLE manager of the bullpen. Always has been, but in recent years it has been alot worse. Look at Sunday when he pitched Joba for 2 innings in an 8-3 game. And the list of pitchers that he has burnt out is extensive - Sturtze, Proctor, Bruney, on and on and on.

And Guidry, for everything he's done for this organization as a player, is as much of a failure as a pitching coach as Rick Petersen is for the Mets.

Still, with all Torre's faults, he did a tremendous job of keeping this team together. Just the fact that they MADE the playoffs is an impressive feat.

Nevertheless, if this is the end, maybe it's time. Girardi would be at the top of the list for me because at least he's won manager of the year, I have questions about Mattingly's managerial ability.
Aside from the comment about Peterson, who has been a very good pitching coach for the Mets, I think you have the right idea.

Mattingly has never managed a single game in his life aside from perhaps his son's little league team. Making him the replacement for the most popular Yankees manager since Casey Stengel might be asking a bit too much of the guy.

Not quite sure about Girardi though. If he's bullheaded enough to get fired by the Marlins after winning Manager of the Year, I have a feeling he might not work so well with Steinbrenner and the rest of the Tampa contingent. I know Steinbrenner's barely in charge anymore if at all, but he's still The Boss.

La Russa is a name I've heard a lot, but he'd be a disaster in NY.

I think the best guy for the job might be Bowa. He's proven himself to be a very good tactician with the Phillies, but then again he might pose the exact same problem with the front office that I said Girardi would.

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10-10-2007, 12:29 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
also, if it would be possible to get Santana w/o giving up Hughes or Joba, id do it.

Melky, Kennedy, Tabata, Betances, Sanchez, WHATEVER they want, but i want that guy who can strike out 12 guys in a game. and i want that guy to be a lefty. IMHO, Santana is that guy.
I would absolutely love to get Santana in here, but I'm unsure about 1) if the Twins would trade him within the American League and 2) if they did, they would probably want at least one of Hughes/Joba. And like you, I wouldn't give up either. But that probably means the Twins would send him somewhere else.

I love both Melky and Kennedy and I think they serve as a huge part of the future. Tabata does too, but he can be made expendable. Same with Betances and I really have alot of doubts about Sanchez with his injury history...it might be wise to trade him this offseason before things get much worse.

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Aside from the comment about Peterson, who has been a very good pitching coach for the Mets, I think you have the right idea.

Mattingly has never managed a single game in his life aside from perhaps his son's little league team. Making him the replacement for the most popular Yankees manager since Casey Stengel might be asking a bit too much of the guy.

Not quite sure about Girardi though. If he's bullheaded enough to get fired by the Marlins after winning Manager of the Year, I have a feeling he might not work so well with Steinbrenner and the rest of the Tampa contingent. I know Steinbrenner's barely in charge anymore if at all, but he's still The Boss.

La Russa is a name I've heard a lot, but he'd be a disaster in NY.

I think the best guy for the job might be Bowa. He's proven himself to be a very good tactician with the Phillies, but then again he might pose the exact same problem with the front office that I said Girardi would.
I just think with Petersen (and alot of my friends who are Mets fans too) was a bit overhyped and that his two biggest successes (Perez and Maine) were mostly benefited by the fact that they left two absolutely dreadful teams and finally got a chance to play for a good team with the Mets.

But back to the Yankees, I agree with you about Mattingly. He actually managed a game earlier this season when Torre was suspended (one of the beanball incidents with Boston I think) and made some questionable moves. Obviously it's only one game, but it was a bit of a red flag and I always get a little worried when a legend like that is thrown into a role like him. Just look at Guidry.

I think alot of the stuff with Girardi in Florida had to do with Marlins ownership. Loria is widely known as almost impossible to work for and Joe seems like a pretty level-headed guy for the most part. I think that the Yankees is also a dream of his and any problems from Florida like that wouldn't come up here.

I'm not crazy about Bowa though honestly. His players (with the exception of Abreu, ironically enough) couldn't stand him in Philadelphia. But he fits that Piniella mold that the team may be looking to go in after Torre, so nothing would surprise me.

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Old
10-10-2007, 12:41 AM
  #73
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Can I put in a bet with the Vbookie that Shelley Duncan ends up on Datelines "To Catch a Predator" at some point in the next 5 years. He has a serious Pedo-smile working.

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10-10-2007, 12:49 AM
  #74
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Can I put in a bet with the Vbookie that Shelley Duncan ends up on Datelines "To Catch a Predator" at some point in the next 5 years. He has a serious Pedo-smile working.



the guy is a grade A freak for sure.

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Old
10-10-2007, 01:00 AM
  #75
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Quote:
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Can I put in a bet with the Vbookie that Shelley Duncan ends up on Datelines "To Catch a Predator" at some point in the next 5 years. He has a serious Pedo-smile working.


The man is hideous. I'll fully admit that. Although he was one of my favorite things about this season - especially when he nearly gave Kim Jones a heart attack on the YES Postgame show.

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