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All-Time Draft #8, Part IV

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Old
10-17-2007, 08:36 PM
  #51
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
I don't think I understand the reasoning here. There are three players on the team I want to be ego-maniacs -- the 1st line scorer and the two goaltenders. Defensemen have to play as a unit, but goaltenders are kinda back there on their own. There should be a rivalry between the two, because backups shouldn't be content as backups.

You want skaters to "know their role" and do what the team needs ... but every goaltender has the exact same role (you don't need to balance Gretzkys with Carbonneaus), and, with the exceptions of a few lockerroom guys, all goaltenders are either "helpful" (ie: in the game) or "useless" (ie: not in the game). There are no 4th-line, role-playing goaltenders. As long as Luongo isn't stealing the starter's glove and hiding it in the sauna, there should be a rivalry and there SHOULD be competitiveness.
In theory that should be the case, but in reality there are some goalies who seem to only perform well if they are the designated #1 (Don Cherry made that comment about Gerber recently). I don't want a backup who's content with being a backup, but at the same time I don't want a player who will sulk if he's not the starter. The backups role goes beyond just playing when the starter needs a rest. He should be watching the game intently and be giving the starter advice during the intermissions on what the other team is doing. Some guys are just simply not team players, which is forgivable if you're a star, but bad if you're a supporting part.

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10-17-2007, 08:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Evil Speaker View Post
This is a fine pick. I was debating between Neilson and St. Laurent with my last pick. I decided to go with St. Laurent because of his great two-way play in the playoffs along side Geoffrion and Harvey when they won all those cups. I also think St. Laurent is a better defensive player. Still there is little difference between the two.
I think Neilson is better than a few defenseman drafted before him.
thanks. decided to pick him after i read on pelletier's website that he was a good skater with offensive ability.

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10-17-2007, 08:50 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
In theory that should be the case, but in reality there are some goalies who seem to only perform well if they are the designated #1 (Don Cherry made that comment about Gerber recently). I don't want a backup who's content with being a backup, but at the same time I don't want a player who will sulk if he's not the starter. The backups role goes beyond just playing when the starter needs a rest. He should be watching the game intently and be giving the starter advice during the intermissions on what the other team is doing. Some guys are just simply not team players, which is forgivable if you're a star, but bad if you're a supporting part.
Exactly. You don't want someone like Danny Sabourin who seemed happy to sit and watch Luongo make saves. A guy like Luongo is awesome to have as a backup, IMHO, because he is extremely talented, (not nearly good enough to play as a starting goalie in a ATD) but he also has a good attitude. I may be a huge homer, but if this draft were real, I'm sure Rob Luongo would compete as hard as he does every game, as a backup, or starter.

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10-17-2007, 08:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
Exactly. You don't want someone like Danny Sabourin who seemed happy to sit and watch Luongo make saves. A guy like Luongo is awesome to have as a backup, IMHO, because he is extremely talented, (not nearly good enough to play as a starting goalie in a ATD) but he also has a good attitude. I may be a huge homer, but if this draft were real, I'm sure Rob Luongo would compete as hard as he does every game, as a backup, or starter.
It's not that Luongo isn't talented enough. He just doesn't have the career or the accomplishments so far to surpass, say, Frank Brimsek.

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10-17-2007, 08:58 PM
  #55
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regarding the triad of skill versus peak versus career he is lacking in at least two categories compared to many goalies left undrafted

and if one steps out of one's own time and looks at it in an all-time context, there are (apparently anyways) equally skilled goalies that have had greater peaks and better careers

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10-17-2007, 08:59 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
It's not that Luongo isn't talented enough. He just doesn't have the career or the accomplishments so far to surpass, say, Frank Brimsek.
Yeah, "good" wasn't the right word there. "Accomplished" would have sounded better.

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10-17-2007, 10:49 PM
  #57
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I had MacLean pegged for my 4th line.

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Old
10-17-2007, 10:55 PM
  #58
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I had MacLean pegged for my 4th line.
I judge the value of my picks based on how many I get.


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Old
10-17-2007, 10:58 PM
  #59
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In that case, I forgot to say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
33 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Bryan Trottier
34
35 VanIslander - New York Raiders
friggin' frackin' fruckin'

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10-17-2007, 11:18 PM
  #60
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I can't think of too many picks this draft where I didn't get the guy I wanted. I mean there were some guys I'd love to have, but most of the time I was counting on them not slipping.

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Old
10-17-2007, 11:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
I can't think of too many picks this draft where I didn't get the guy I wanted. I mean there were some guys I'd love to have, but most of the time I was counting on them not slipping.
it helps to have lists ....

but still, when a guy you thought would have gone a round or two sooner actually is about to slip to you, and then is snatched up just before you...

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10-17-2007, 11:29 PM
  #62
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I've waited over 5 hours, could wait at most an hour more but we're on a 9 hour clock (until the end of this round?) so I'll just go now.

Left a player name with BM67, who picks just after me anyways.

See you guys on the other side. G'day.

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Old
10-17-2007, 11:30 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
it helps to have lists ....

but still, when a guy you thought would have gone a round or two sooner actually is about to slip to you, and then is snatched up just before you...
*cough* PARISE *cough*


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Old
10-17-2007, 11:34 PM
  #64
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Let's start taking bets - do we finish this thread or this round first?

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Old
10-17-2007, 11:40 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
In that case, I forgot to say...


friggin' frackin' fruckin'
I knew Flin Flon wasn't going to start Clarke-Trottier and I was fairly confident St Louis wasn't going to start Yzerman-Trottier, so when Winnipeg took Jagr (awful pick IMO) instead of Lindsay, I realized that (at the very least) I was going to get Trottier. My exact words were, "wow ... that just happened."

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Old
10-17-2007, 11:40 PM
  #66
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I can't think of too many picks this draft where I didn't get the guy I wanted. I mean there were some guys I'd love to have, but most of the time I was counting on them not slipping.
Agreed. We actually had Max Bentley at No. 2 on our list in the second round. raleh and I were shocked when he fell to the third round. We had Neely at the top of our list for the fourth. Not necessarily because we thought he was the best player available, but we knew that other guys we had our eyes on, such as Gadsby, wouldn't be available at pick 102. So there is that element of compiling a list. We also went with certain roles (two-way line wingers, crease clearing defencemen) earlier than other GMs.

At this point in the draft, don't say "there's no way that Player X will be available when I pick." Because he likely will be there. Since I picked this morning, there have been two players picked who was on my list for Round 17: MacLean and St. Laurent.

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Old
10-17-2007, 11:55 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
I knew Flin Flon wasn't going to start Clarke-Trottier and I was fairly confident St Louis wasn't going to start Yzerman-Trottier, so when Winnipeg took Jagr (awful pick IMO) instead of Lindsay, I realized that (at the very least) I was going to get Trottier. My exact words were, "wow ... that just happened."
I fail to see how Jagr is an awful pick in the 30s.

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Old
10-18-2007, 12:01 AM
  #68
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I fail to see how Jagr is an awful pick in the 30s.
Well, when Terrible Ted Lindsay is still out there, that might have something to do with it. I'd never pass on Lindsay to take Jagr. But I'd never pass on Lindsay to take Yzerman, Lidstrom, any goalie who's out there, or some of the other guys taken ahead of Lindsay.

Lindsay was probably the BPA for about 10 picks. And when you consider his position, well-rounded game and leadership, he should go a lot earlier than 30.

And for the record, Jagr went No. 29. Or 28. Whichever was listed first.

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10-18-2007, 12:07 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
I knew Flin Flon wasn't going to start Clarke-Trottier and I was fairly confident St Louis wasn't going to start Yzerman-Trottier, so when Winnipeg took Jagr (awful pick IMO) instead of Lindsay, I realized that (at the very least) I was going to get Trottier. My exact words were, "wow ... that just happened."
You have no idea how hard I tried to get in there, and steal him away. I must have organized five trades only to have each and every one of them fall through.

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Old
10-18-2007, 01:23 AM
  #70
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The Oakland Seals are very pleased to select center Edgar Laprade.

Sorry this one took so long, boys. I didn't get a chance to check in last night (my time) because of an unpleasant work schedule and I guess Nalyd was busy, as well. I was sweating that Laprade might go off the board before our pick came up, but seeing him still there is a nice way to start the morning.

On Laprade:

- well, first and foremost, we drafted Laprade because the Seals are a team without a lot of good nicknames and we feel that "Beaver" is truly an elite nickname in this format. Given the questionable popularity of the Seal mascot with Bay Area fans (recently, even the San Francisco Giants have trotted out a much-maligned seal mascot that looks more like a mutant squirrel than any kind of aquatic mammal - though it is more popular than the infamous crab, which was regularly the target of unwanted food and beverages), we may consider changing the team name to the Oakland Beavers. We think it might help with merchandizing, especially among younger fans.

- anyway, Laprade was also a pretty good hockey player, and we think he's the perfect fit to center an Oakland 3rd line which is built around speed and 2-way play. The Beaver is described as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF bio
A tremendous playmaking center and smooth skater, Edgar Laprade was one of the NHL's best forwards during the late 1940s. Blessed with exceptional lateral mobility and an effortless skating style, he was a brilliant penalty killer and determined checker. Laprade could also score and was one of the league's most dangerous skaters on the counterattack.
and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangers site
One of the best stickhandlers in Rangers history, Laprade's greatest moments came during the 1950 playoffs, when he was part of a team that went all the way to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals before falling to Detroit. He was named the Rangers' MVP for that remarkable season.
In spite of how putrid the Rangers were for most of Laprade's time in New York, the Beaver was often recognized by the league for his outstanding play, and was elected to play in four consecutive all-star games, from 1947 to 1950. In spite of playing with wingers who no one would recognize, Laprade set up a lot of scoring plays, peaking at third among the NHL's assist leaders in 1948. In spite of his checking prowess, the Beaver was very rarely penalized, totaling 42 penalty minutes in 500 career NHL games. Although it's certainly not why we drafted Laprade, it should also be noted that he had a very successful senior league career before coming to New York, twice winning the Gerry trophy as league MVP while playing in Port Arthur, and served his country for two of what would have been his prime years (the Rangers and Habs were pursuing him as early as 1938) during the second world war.

- Laprade also continues our mini-theme of drafting great forwards from lousy teams. Interestingly enough, the Beaver retired after Andy Bathgate's first full season in New York.

- Laprade is maybe, kinda, sorta the first Francophone player on the Seals roster, though as the Rangers won his rights in the late 30's, maybe not.

BM has been PMed. Heh...I made a rhyme.

*edit: whoops, VanI has been PMed. Didn't see that the pick had been traded.*


Last edited by Sturminator: 10-18-2007 at 03:23 AM.
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Old
10-18-2007, 02:18 AM
  #71
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As far as the Jagr pick is concerned, it all depends on what you're looking for. I think Jagr is almost certainly more explosive offensively than Lindsay. Terrible Ted was a great offensive player, but what makes him so valuable is his all-around game. Jagr is a guy who can break the game open at any moment, against any defenseman at any spot in the attacking zone. His size/speed/skill combination is unreal.

Depending on the kind of offense you're trying to run and what other players you have or intend to put on the 1st line, I can definitely see Jagr going ahead of Lindsay. Not every player on a team/line needs to be a leader or a gritty 2-way guy. If you need offense first and foremost and already have the other bits covered (not to mention the RW/LW difference) taking Jagr over Lindsay makes perfect sense.

Also, I would note that the "left wing scarcity" assumption is mostly false. There is a smaller truly elite tier at left wing than at any other position, but the field fattens up nicely into a middle-tier of very attractive scoringline players in rounds six and seven, at about the same time the high-end tier of right wings begins to dry up. After the 11-deep tier of elite talent at right wing (Bathgate is generally the last player taken from this group in my opinion, though arguments can be made that Makarov and Mikhailov are at least close), I actually think the left wings are better.

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10-18-2007, 02:37 AM
  #72
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Sorry for not PMing picks, I didn't realize how close we were when I left for work.

Glad we got our man in Laprade though. He may be the worst NHL forward in the HHoF, but, at 447 overall, he's a stellar pick and the perfect final player for our 3rd line.

On that note, the Oakland Seals official declare the line of Holik-Laprade-Phillips the Counter-Attack Line. Their job is to go against offense first, defense last lines and skate the opponent off their feet. Combining the defensive skills to shut down scoring lines with the offensive skills to make defensively ineffective units suffer, this should be a very effective and speedy line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
I don't think I understand the reasoning here. There are three players on the team I want to be ego-maniacs -- the 1st line scorer and the two goaltenders. Defensemen have to play as a unit, but goaltenders are kinda back there on their own. There should be a rivalry between the two, because backups shouldn't be content as backups.

You want skaters to "know their role" and do what the team needs ... but every goaltender has the exact same role (you don't need to balance Gretzkys with Carbonneaus), and, with the exceptions of a few lockerroom guys, all goaltenders are either "helpful" (ie: in the game) or "useless" (ie: not in the game). There are no 4th-line, role-playing goaltenders. As long as Luongo isn't stealing the starter's glove and hiding it in the sauna, there should be a rivalry and there SHOULD be competitiveness.
To me, the starting goalie is the only player where it's OK to have a poor attitude, for the reasons stated. Your star scorer is the most important player to have a team first attitude. Trickle down effect. If you have Gretzky or Beliveau or someone of that ilk than all other players will have a self imposed pressure to fall in line. No one in St. Louis is going to be thinking, I'm more important than Yzerman, so I'll go hotdogging.

After that it's about reasonable allowance, not everyone needs to be a saint, but you want to avoid cliques of negative influence.

And that final quote is exactly why Belfour should never be used as a back-up...

As for Lindsay, I still think Hall slipping is a way bigger shocker. IMO the big 5 goalies are pretty much the BPAs from pick 10 until the last one is taken.

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Old
10-18-2007, 03:05 AM
  #73
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As for Lindsay, I still think Hall slipping is a way bigger shocker. IMO the big 5 goalies are pretty much the BPAs from pick 10 until the last one is taken.
Just out of curiosity (not that it mattered this time around) Nalyd, which one of Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Hasek, Dryden & Hall do you not consider among the "big 5"?

I agree with you that Hall going at #31 was very nice value, although there seems to be a lot of disagreement among the GMs in the draft about the importance of the goalie and the difference in value between goalies.

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10-18-2007, 03:10 AM
  #74
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Just out of curiosity (not that it mattered this time around) Nalyd, which one of Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Hasek, Dryden & Hall do you not consider among the "big 5"?
I drop Dryden. While Montreal struggled without him, it's impossible to deny the quality of the teams in front of him. He was never in a situation that would be a real challenge. Plus, his career is so short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
- well, first and foremost, we drafted Laprade because the Seals are a team without a lot of good nicknames and we feel that "Beaver" is truly an elite nickname in this format. Given the questionable popularity of the Seal mascot with Bay Area fans (recently, even the San Francisco Giants have trotted out a much-maligned seal mascot that looks more like a mutant squirrel than any kind of aquatic mammal - though it is more popular than the infamous crab, which was regularly the target of unwanted food and beverages), we may consider changing the team name to the Oakland Beavers. We think it might help with merchandizing, especially among younger fans.
The name change is conditional on Primus recording "Oakland's Big Brown Beavers" for the team to use when players are taking the ice.

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10-18-2007, 03:51 AM
  #75
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The name change is conditional on Primus recording "Oakland's Big Brown Beavers" for the team to use when players are taking the ice.
I like it, I like it. We'll have to get our PR people on that right away.

We can also play OPP during the Oakland Power Play and Mama Said Knock You Out whenever Red Horner gets in a fight. Don't call it a comeback. Too bad we don't have Jeremy Roenick and his sweet dance moves. I'd like to incorporate I am the Walrus into the playlist, as well, though I'm not really sure where it would be appropriate. Maybe after Holocek makes a great save? Haven't come up with a good goal song yet, though if we want to use some local Oakland talent, we could certainly do a lot worse than Baby Got Back. There will be no MC Hammer songs at Seals games, so don't even go there, girlfriend.

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