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Kostitsyn out of the line-up Saturday? Grabovski in Hamilton?

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Old
10-19-2007, 08:33 AM
  #26
otto bond
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
I'm with you. The one thing that concerns me about Grabovski is that he gets into too many board battle situations which he just can't win. He (or his linemates or coaches) need to figure out a way for him to use his speed better, and not require him to dig out pucks for his bigger linemates so often.

I don't think he looked "pretty damn good" but it certainly wasn't a bad night for him in my books.

edit: Players who were unremarkable to me tonight were:
Begin.. but he took a puck to the ankle.. not sure how that affected him.
Kostopoulos.. he should never be on a scoring line, and hasn't shown the kind of grit we were all expecting this season
Kovalev.. even though he scored a goal, he certainly wasn't dangerous and made a few low percentage plays where he could have handed the puck off
Hamrlik.. who was out of position leading to scoring opporunities 4 times (two of which were broken up by someone else) by my count.

Players who I thought played better than we've seen so far:
Latendresse.. played a North-South game, strong on the forecheck which is what he needs to keep doing. Should throw the body a bit more. Fluke goal, but it's a goal.
Ryder.. amazingly there were 3 or 4 times where he was the first player to backcheck and made several solid defensive plays. He's really elevated his defensive game. His goal wasn't indicative as it was really just a tap in off Higgins' play and shot

Other comments:
Brisebois.. the PP pass to Kovalev was spectacular, all-around solid defensive play. The first penalty he took was a real momentum killer though and totally let Heatley get away from him after pinching.
Price: Solid but unspectacular. I noticed him cheating quite a few times either off the post, or like he did on the first goal (sat back on his skates when going down instead of pushing pad onto the ice). I'm not sure if it's the speed of the game that's affecting him, but it's going to bite him sooner or later.
Try him on the wing..IMHO(Grabovski)
As for Brizzer, well Heatley had contact with him and found himself alone. If the ref had seen this, their would have been a penalty for interference

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10-19-2007, 08:41 AM
  #27
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I want to bring in some stats here because I'm getting a sense of unreality at all this bashing of Grabovski. This kid is getting better and better every game, and if he was given normal ice time and a right-winger that had two hands, he'd be getting more points than Plekanec:

Last game
Amount of ice-time: 11:25 (3rd worse on the team)
Amount of shots on net: 3 (tied for 2nd on the team)
Face-off %: 50% (3rd on the team)
Time on the PP: 13 seconds (tied for 2nd worse on the team)
Giveaways: 1 (tied for second best on the team)

And for his progression, these are his last four games:
Code:
Game  	G  	A  	P  	+/-  	PIM  	PPG  	SHG  	Sh  	Sh %  	Shft  	TOI  	FO%
Oct 18, 2007 vs. OTT  	0 	0 	0 	-1 	0 	0 	0 	3 	0.0 	17 	11:25 	50.0
Oct 16, 2007 vs. FLA  	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	2 	0.0 	17 	10:57 	40.0
Oct 6, 2007 vs. TOR  	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 		14 	11:12 	0.0
Oct 3, 2007 vs. CAR  	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	1 	0.0 	14 	11:36 	30.0

All that while having Kostitsyn who is still trying to find himself in this beginning of the season and Kostopoulos who is no Olympian (bad pun, I know) flanking his right.

Seriously, I'm sick and tired of people being so negative about him.


Last edited by kernkraft: 10-19-2007 at 08:50 AM.
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Old
10-19-2007, 08:47 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
I want to bring in some stats here because I'm getting a sense of unreality at all this bashing of Grabovski. This kid is getting better and better every game, and if he was given normal ice time and a right-winger that had two hands, he'd be getting more points than Plekanec:

Last game
Amount of ice-time: 11:25 (3rd worse on the team)
Amount of shots on net: 3 (tied for 2nd on the team)
Face-off %: 50% (3rd on the team)
Time on the PP: 13 seconds (tied for 2nd worse on the team)
Giveaways: 1 (tied for second best on the team)


All that while having Kostitsyn who is still trying to find himself in this beginning of the season and Kostopoulos who is no Olympian (bad pun, I know) flanking his right.

Seriously, I'm sick and tired of people being so negative about him.

People are negative about Grabs because they've wanted to see him play since last year, and they were sure that he was going to be the next big thing. Now that he's not after 5 games they've moved on the D'agostini who's scoring at the AHL level. And then in a year or two when Grabs is playing well and scoring they'll be talking about how they always supported him and were always convinced of his potential as a prospect...unless he has a slump...then the wheel keep on turning my friend.

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Old
10-19-2007, 08:51 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moester View Post
People are negative about Grabs because they've wanted to see him play since last year, and they were sure that he was going to be the next big thing. Now that he's not after 5 games they've moved on the D'agostini who's scoring at the AHL level. And then in a year or two when Grabs is playing well and scoring they'll be talking about how they always supported him and were always convinced of his potential as a prospect...unless he has a slump...then the wheel keep on turning my friend.
Sad but true

Glad to see I'm not alone though

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Old
10-19-2007, 09:04 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
I'm with you. The one thing that concerns me about Grabovski is that he gets into too many board battle situations which he just can't win. He (or his linemates or coaches) need to figure out a way for him to use his speed better, and not require him to dig out pucks for his bigger linemates so often.
+1

He's a centerman, he should not have THAT much board battle per game, but right now he's ALWAYS fighting on the boards..and that's not his job! His job is to create chances and pass the puck. Where the hell was Kostopoulos all game long to battle the puck on boards?

Personally I'm so tired of hearing always the same crap about Grabs.. Yes we all know that he's not physically ready for the nhl, that he can't win battles on boards, but gosh at least he's improving! Kostopoulos just can't follow Kostitsyn and Grabs and is always late on plays, results? They are working for three.

Before calling forfeit on Grabs, I'd like to see him either with a decent RW (Lapierre,NOT Kovalev, Latendresse, Ryder, D'agostini) or to have the Ak-Grabs-SK line reunited for 1 game, just to see what they can do.

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Old
10-19-2007, 09:05 AM
  #31
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My 2 cents:

-Begin can't keep up, still shoots harmlessly from too far out (as Kovalev criticised him for). A younger guy like Lapierre could do better.

-The ice was slush. The puck was hopping over everybody's stick. That explains why the usual finesse was missing for guys like Kosty and Streit.

-Kovalev = amazing.

-Breezer made a nice pass on the third goal but he's frail and slow and doesn't have much of a shot & the defence was frequently out of position on the PP.

-Grabovski looked alright to me although I didn't see the entire 60 minutes.

-The officiating was weak, particularly on a couple of missed offsides and the interference on Ottawa's third goal.

-Koivu and Higgins looked slower in the third period.

I remain optimistic.

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Old
10-19-2007, 09:05 AM
  #32
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Honestly i dont think any of them should be benched, ok so there not producing yet, o well, its the beginning of the season, still a lot of time left. But if your going to call up anyone, why not baby Kosty. The guy is insane and gonna be a top player in the NHL. And of course call up Lappy, team needs a player like lapierre.

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Old
10-19-2007, 09:10 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
I can't watch the games so this is going purely off the stats, so take it for what it's worth. Andrei Kostitsyn is 3rd on the team in shots on goal. Andrei Kostitsyn is also 15th out of all 21 skaters used so far in terms of average ice time per game and 20th out of 21 skaters in average shifts per game. So as a result of these mere stats, I'm just curious how you are trying to argue that he rarely shoots on goal? I agree with or at least understand some of your points, but if you are going to slight a guy, do it for the right reasons please.
Very astute QGD.

I'm not sure what Carbo is thinking. A coach needs to create situations where players can succeed. How can you put two rookies on the same line and expect them to shine, especially when one of the rookies is a centerman and not ready for NHL primetime, and to top it all of, you give them the responsibility of second line.

Kost is a dangerous player who just needs to be better supported. The Habs need to find a player to stabilize the second line and Plakanec is not the one. Only then will you be able to evaluate the work of Kost. Right now, playing with Grabo, playing small minutes, and getting yo-yo'ed from line to line is not indicative of what he can do.

Kost has the potential of being a top line winger, good skate, size, moves, great shot and overall dangerous. Carbo - stop f'ing with him, surround him and watch him explode.

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10-19-2007, 09:28 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Very astute QGD.

I'm not sure what Carbo is thinking. A coach needs to create situations where players can succeed. How can you put two rookies on the same line and expect them to shine, especially when one of the rookies is a centerman and not ready for NHL primetime, and to top it all of, you give them the responsibility of second line.

Kost is a dangerous player who just needs to be better supported. The Habs need to find a player to stabilize the second line and Plakanec is not the one. Only then will you be able to evaluate the work of Kost. Right now, playing with Grabo, playing small minutes, and getting yo-yo'ed from line to line is not indicative of what he can do.

Kost has the potential of being a top line winger, good skate, size, moves, great shot and overall dangerous. Carbo - stop f'ing with him, surround him and watch him explode.
Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Higgins

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Old
10-19-2007, 09:37 AM
  #35
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Kost and Grabs need to be given more time. They're not playing that well but it's not lack of effort imo. Carbo's constant yo-yo-ing of lines isn't helping either.

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10-19-2007, 10:02 AM
  #36
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It's sad to see that posters here seem to think every single one of our talented players need to play with really good linemates to be able to create anything. Guess what, it's not the way it works, if you are a good player you play your ass out, you create chances even if you play with plumbers and you get promoted. (see Chris Higgins last year)

Face it, Truth hurt, Kostitsyn, Grabovski and Chipchura are not what we thought they were, the only guy in the bunch with legit second line potential is Kostitsyn, Grabovski is another Petrov and Chipchura a good 3rd line center if he can learn to skate faster.

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Old
10-19-2007, 10:04 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Yay! It's my first ever thread that I'm starting... so I'll try to say something intelligent!

It seems like one game out of the line-up have been enough to wake up Latendresse. He had a very good game against the Sens. But Grabovski and Kostitsyn played another bad game. They are both far from impressive since the beginning of the season. They can't make good passes, they can't keep control of the puck, they make a lot of mistakes, they rarely shoot on goal, etc. One flashy move per game just isn't enough to make them valuable to the team right now.

So my suggestion....

Saturday, I would keep Kostitsyn in the stands, just to send him a message like we did for Latendresse. Hopefully, he will come back stronger for the next game.

About Grabs, it's sad to say, because I would have loved to see him produce, but it's obviously not working at all. If at least he was creating some chances, he would be much more useful, but he's not. I'm scared everytime he's on the ice because he always lose the puck to the opponent. So I think it's time to send him back to Hamilton. He was lucky enough to play with Kovalev and he failed. So it's time to bring back some players who really deserve to be on the team.

I would bring Lapierre and D'Agnostini to replace Grabs and Murray. This way our 4 centers would be : Koivu-Plekanec-Smolinski-Chipchura. Higgins, Kovalev, Lapierre and Bégin can also play center, so there are still many possibilities.
Kostitsyn played very well actually. Good effort.

Grabs looks lost... don't blame Kosti for it. And btw, Kosti should be getting more icetime not less.

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Old
10-19-2007, 10:05 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sports1131 View Post
Grabovski looked pretty damn good today. I wish that other (stupid) thread wasn't deleted; I'm too tired to remember what I wrote.

Give them a chance with a decent player on the line (not Kostopoulos), leave them alone for a few games, and give them decent ice time. In the case of Kostitsyn, give him some power play time as well.

Between the impatience of Carbonneau and the impatience of some of you guys I'm starting to go a little crazy.
I agree, give him a little time and decent players...

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10-19-2007, 10:08 AM
  #39
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
It's sad to see that posters here seem to think every single one of our talented players need to play with really good linemates to be able to create anything. Guess what, it's not the way it works, if you are a good player you play your ass out, you create chances even if you play with plumbers and you get promoted. (see Chris Higgins last year)

Face it, Truth hurt, Kostitsyn, Grabovski and Chipchura are not what we thought they were, the only guy in the bunch with legit second line potential is Kostitsyn, Grabovski is another Petrov and Chipchura a good 3rd line center if he can learn to skate faster.
Kostitsyn and Lats are kids... its way too soon to write them off. Kostitsyn hasn't even played a full season for Pete's sake and Lats is only 20 years old. We need to give them a chance. It takes time man... It will be another three years before we really know what we have with them and it will probably be more like 5 for Lats. Impatience is what's killed this team in the past, I hope we don't go down that path again.

As for Grabs, you might be right on him. I don't think he's an NHL calibre player. I think we should give him a shot as well, but he's 24 and the other two have looked much better than him. If he doesn't improve over the next half season, we need to cut bait. Personally, I don't think he's NHL material but I could be wrong.

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10-19-2007, 10:34 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
I'm not sure if you are aware, but there is more to a hockey team than just drafting. It's an important part for sure, but you appear to be overlooking a couple of minor facts about the Ducks Stanley Cup win. Scott Niedermayer, Chris Pronger, Teemu Selanne for example. Or were they all drafted by the Ducks and I had failed to notice until now? Out of interest, who are the Habs equivalents of those guys?
Qui Gon Dave,

I agree with you when you said......."there is more to a hockey team than just drafting".

I never implied that drafting was the only part of building a team, but, at least in my opinion, the foundation of the team is usually built throuigh the draft.

It appears to me that generally, teams that do a good job at the draft table are more compeatitive (i.e. Detroit) compared to teams that don't draft consistantly well (Habs).

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10-19-2007, 10:44 AM
  #41
Lafleurs Guy
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Qui Gon Dave,

I agree with you when you said......."there is more to a hockey team than just drafting".

I never implied that drafting was the only part of building a team, but, at least in my opinion, the foundation of the team is usually built throuigh the draft.

It appears to me that generally, teams that do a good job at the draft table are more compeatitive (i.e. Detroit) compared to teams that don't draft consistantly well (Habs).
What are you talking about? We HAVE drafted well. Our problem has been draft position. Look at the guys on our roster and look where they've were drafted. We've done a good job on that front.

Yes, Detroit has been the best... that doesn't mean we've drafted poorly. We just need better draft position.

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10-19-2007, 10:44 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Very astute QGD.

I'm not sure what Carbo is thinking. A coach needs to create situations where players can succeed. How can you put two rookies on the same line and expect them to shine, especially when one of the rookies is a centerman and not ready for NHL primetime, and to top it all of, you give them the responsibility of second line.

Kost is a dangerous player who just needs to be better supported. The Habs need to find a player to stabilize the second line and Plakanec is not the one. Only then will you be able to evaluate the work of Kost. Right now, playing with Grabo, playing small minutes, and getting yo-yo'ed from line to line is not indicative of what he can do.

Kost has the potential of being a top line winger, good skate, size, moves, great shot and overall dangerous. Carbo - stop f'ing with him, surround him and watch him explode.
Carbo's not F'ing with him he's putting him with a centre who he known his best production with, and he's put him on a line with a veteran who can bring him along. Both Kost and grabs will take some time to develop, but once they do, they should bloom quite well

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10-19-2007, 11:01 AM
  #43
Melvin Udall
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What are you talking about? We HAVE drafted well. Our problem has been draft position. Look at the guys on our roster and look where they've were drafted. We've done a good job on that front.

Yes, Detroit has been the best... that doesn't mean we've drafted poorly. We just need better draft position.

Dude,

If Detroit can draft good players in later draft selections -- why can the Habs not do the same?

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10-19-2007, 11:11 AM
  #44
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Dude,

If Detroit can draft good players in later draft selections -- why can the Habs not do the same?
You're pointing to ONE team. We don't stack up to Detroit but nobody does.

And you can't tell me that they didn't get somewhat lucky with those picks. Nobody knew that Lidstrom was going to be the monster that he became. If they did, he would've been drafted first overall. Kudos to the Wings, but that doesn't mean we've done a poor job.

Go take a look at the players we've drafted and where we've picked them up. We've done a pretty good job in recent years.

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10-19-2007, 11:12 AM
  #45
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Why don't they try Grabs on the wing? I know he's played centre his whole life but his style of play is that of a winger, not a centre.
Actually, he didn't. He played the left wing position in the IHWC years before. And he did pretty well.

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10-19-2007, 11:13 AM
  #46
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I'd try to play Kostitsyn on his natural side before even thinking of sitting him for another 4th line checker.
Bingo. Kostitsyn isn't quite ready to sit yet, IMHO.

And as for Grabovski, I think everybody knew he'd be a work in progress this year. He'll sit out some games anyway. I'd be tempted to keep him in against Buffalo or Boston, though, as potential opportunities to freewheel some.

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10-19-2007, 12:13 PM
  #47
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We need to remember that Kostitsyn and Grabovski still haven't proved anything in North America. One point per game in the AHL is nothing really impressive. Grabs made no real impact during the AHL playoffs (2 or 3 goals?). What I mean is that yes, they have a lot of flashy moves in bank, but on a production level, I'm far from convince they will have long NHL carreers.

I'm more hopeful for Kostitsyn, who has more potential and a better shot. He takes a lot of time to develop, but I still believe he can produce with a good center. But for Grabovski, yes he skates fast, yes he's spectacular, but we can say the same for Oleg Petrov, Sergei Samsonov, Sergei Berezin, Mariusz Czerkawski, Andrei Bashkirov and so many others. Grabovski hasn't proved any more things than them, and he's already 24....

I'm not saying we should lose hope on those guys. I still hope Grabs and Kots will become stars in the NHL. But what I say is that we need to calm down and lower our expectations for them. And if Kots needs to sit one game to progress, and if Grabs needs to spend some more weeks in Hamilton to come back stronger in December, well it's not dramatic.

Carbo and Gainey said at the beginning of the season that this team had 26 players. I don't think it's a problem to make a little rotation to see what Lapierre and D'Agnostini can bring us. Developping players is important, but winning should remain the priority.

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10-19-2007, 12:19 PM
  #48
windycity
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Truth hurt, Kostitsyn, Grabovski and Chipchura are not what we thought they were,

Wow, you can see that after 6 games? and just 2-3 for Grabs and Chips? Those are some impressive skills you have, which NHL organization are you scouting/coaching for?

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10-19-2007, 01:26 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Yay! It's my first ever thread that I'm starting... so I'll try to say something intelligent!

It seems like one game out of the line-up have been enough to wake up Latendresse. He had a very good game against the Sens. But Grabovski and Kostitsyn played another bad game. They are both far from impressive since the beginning of the season. They can't make good passes, they can't keep control of the puck, they make a lot of mistakes, they rarely shoot on goal, etc. One flashy move per game just isn't enough to make them valuable to the team right now.

So my suggestion....

Saturday, I would keep Kostitsyn in the stands, just to send him a message like we did for Latendresse. Hopefully, he will come back stronger for the next game.

About Grabs, it's sad to say, because I would have loved to see him produce, but it's obviously not working at all. If at least he was creating some chances, he would be much more useful, but he's not. I'm scared everytime he's on the ice because he always lose the puck to the opponent. So I think it's time to send him back to Hamilton. He was lucky enough to play with Kovalev and he failed. So it's time to bring back some players who really deserve to be on the team.

I would bring Lapierre and D'Agnostini to replace Grabs and Murray. This way our 4 centers would be : Koivu-Plekanec-Smolinski-Chipchura. Higgins, Kovalev, Lapierre and Bégin can also play center, so there are still many possibilities.
Suuuuure...lets bring another kid that hasnt played 1 NHL Game that would have to get used to new linemates..
You live in lala land if you think D'Agostini would do a better job than Grabs or Kost

And i fail to see where these guys have been so weak..its true that Grabs didnt have a great start in the first games..but he's slowly getting used to things and there's definitly some improvement in his game

We're not supposed to be scratching players left and right...thats not how you coach a team and create chemistry
Brisebois..Begin..Latendresse..Murray..Jorges have all been scratched already...you want to add Kostitsyn and Grabovski to that???..wow..get a clue man..thats not how things work..all this and we havent even played 7games yet!!!

Lapierre should be in our line up and dont know why he isnt..Kostopoulos should not be playing every game like he has been..but for the rest..they should keep them up..and work with them..everybody in this team is on a new line..except for Koivu-Higgins-Ryder...so it takes time buddy..relax..take a deep breath

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10-19-2007, 02:15 PM
  #50
DDs not undersized
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Suuuuure...lets bring another kid that hasnt played 1 NHL Game that would have to get used to new linemates..
You live in lala land if you think D'Agostini would do a better job than Grabs or Kost

And i fail to see where these guys have been so weak..its true that Grabs didnt have a great start in the first games..but he's slowly getting used to things and there's definitly some improvement in his game

We're not supposed to be scratching players left and right...thats not how you coach a team and create chemistry
Brisebois..Begin..Latendresse..Murray..Jorges have all been scratched already...you want to add Kostitsyn and Grabovski to that???..wow..get a clue man..thats not how things work..all this and we havent even played 7games yet!!!

Lapierre should be in our line up and dont know why he isnt..Kostopoulos should not be playing every game like he has been..but for the rest..they should keep them up..and work with them..everybody in this team is on a new line..except for Koivu-Higgins-Ryder...so it takes time buddy..relax..take a deep breath
I'm very relaxed. I just don't understand why it would be so much of a big deal to send Grabovski back in Hamilton for some weeks. Or to scratch Kostitsyn for one game.

Are we winning right now? No.

Do Grabs and Kots contribute to the offense or the defense right now? No.

Do I want to see them have success? Yes. But it's not happening right now, and we're losing. So let's try Lapierre and D'agostini for 3 or 4 games, so we can see how much they contribute. I don't think Kots and Grabs are untouchable yet, not with their combined 1 goal, 0 assist, 1 point.

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