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Luc Bourdon vs Marc Staal

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Old
10-27-2007, 04:57 PM
  #1
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Luc Bourdon vs Marc Staal

Both were drafted in 2005 with Bourdon being 10th and Staal being 12th overall.

I think Luc Bourdon has made some good strides in development after his injury and comparing stats with each other, I would say Bourdon has more upside.

Bourdon:
NHL stats:
9GP, 0G, 0A, -2
AHL stats:
9GP, 3G, 4A - 7 points(2nd), 0 +/-


Marc Staal:
NHL stats:
9GP, 0G, 0A, -2
AHL stats(2006-2007):
12GP, 0G, 2A - 2 points, -2

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10-27-2007, 05:01 PM
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I think Staal has clearly surpassed Bourdon at this point, and that many/most of us would take him going forward.

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10-27-2007, 05:04 PM
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Marc Staal, but it seems like Bourdon's making strides to be useful, which makes me happy as a Canucks fan.

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10-27-2007, 05:09 PM
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staal's nhl stats are misleading as the rangers arent scoring at all.....once they do i think you will se him finish with something from 15-20 points...maybe 4-5 goals and some assists......i have watched every single game and he is doing exactly what girardi did last year....playing very good solid defence positionally and not taking too many chances....which is exactly what the rangers want him to do...he looks comfortable playing against anyone, including crosby who he played very well against i havent seen bourdon play but from what i have heard, he is a promising young defenceman...should be good with a year of seasoning in the AHL, hope no one gets down on him.....i would pick staal bec ause of his skating ability and leadership....he just looks little bit beter at this point in the development

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10-27-2007, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Transported Upstater View Post
I think Staal has clearly surpassed Bourdon at this point, and that many/most of us would take him going forward.
So far Staal has accomplished the same if not less as Bourdon so I wouldn't say he clearly surpassed him. In terms of upside, I would say Bourdon surpasses Staal because Bourdon sports the whole package of being a top defenceman and Staal features more of the quiet, not flashy defenceman that will put up 20-30 points a year.

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10-27-2007, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
staal's nhl stats are misleading as the rangers arent scoring at all.....once they do i think you will se him finish with something from 15-20 points...maybe 4-5 goals and some assists......i have watched every single game and he is doing exactly what girardi did last year....playing very good solid defence positionally and not taking too many chances....which is exactly what the rangers want him to do...he looks comfortable playing against anyone, including crosby who he played very well against i havent seen bourdon play but from what i have heard, he is a promising young defenceman...should be good with a year of seasoning in the AHL, hope no one gets down on him.....i would pick staal bec ause of his skating ability and leadership....he just looks little bit beter at this point in the development
When Bourdon was up with the Canucks that was at a time where the team as a whole was a disaster and were in the same situation as the Rangers. Bourdon's skating and turning ability is top notch, in one instance he caught up to Alexander Ovechkin and knocked the puck away from him. Marc Staal has great potential but what I am arguing is that these two young defenceman aren't that far off from each other to what people make it out to be.

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10-27-2007, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
So far Staal has accomplished the same if not less as Bourdon so I wouldn't say he clearly surpassed him. In terms of upside, I would say Bourdon surpasses Staal because Bourdon sports the whole package of being a top defenceman and Staal features more of the quiet, not flashy defenceman that will put up 20-30 points a year.
You obviously didn't watch the past couple of WJCs.

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10-27-2007, 06:27 PM
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Even before the draft I was liking Staal and nothing has changed that opinion. Bourdon still has that dazzling upside that makes scouts and GM's drool though. He seems to finally be improving at the AHL level. But even if he makes his full potential I still like a stable Adam Foote type guy than a 1 in 5 games Jovo type who sucks as much as he dominates.

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10-27-2007, 06:30 PM
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I'd still take Staal, but Bourdon's great AHL start is very encouraging.

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10-27-2007, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
So far Staal has accomplished the same if not less as Bourdon so I wouldn't say he clearly surpassed him. In terms of upside, I would say Bourdon surpasses Staal because Bourdon sports the whole package of being a top defenceman and Staal features more of the quiet, not flashy defenceman that will put up 20-30 points a year.
I don't think it's even close at this point.

first of all, saying Staal's accomplishments are the same if not less based on (the statistics from) 18-21 pro games is ignoring their junior careers, which saw Staal dominate, and Bourdon struggle to be anything more than a 2nd pairing guy on 3 different teams (helped by injuries, of course). comparing Staal to another player using stats is usually a sure fire indication that you're heading down the wrong path anyways.

and while their first 9 NHL games are statistically identical, in reality, they're anything but (and I saw all of Staal's and at least 7 of Bourdon's, so don't ask). Bourdon didn't demand the trust of his coach like Staal is.

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10-27-2007, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
You obviously didn't watch the past couple of WJCs.
Justin Pogge had a great WJC's does that mean he is the reincarnation of Patrick Roy? I would rather judge on their current success against MEN rather then boys. Basing players on their past junior experiences is a falliable argument and to really justify a prospects dominance is comparing thier statistics to the league they are determined to play in, which of course is the NHL.

To argue the strengths or weaknesses of a prospect is mainly on statistics which gives an indication of their on ice-play. Staal may have the trust of his coach and GM but this is a weak argument because coaches and GM's have different styles and business also interferes with the descision on whether a player stays up or not.

Bourdon simply has no room to develop in the NHL with the current core of defence the Canucks have and would burn a year off his contract if he was given the 7th spot at the salary of 1.35 million. It better for him to develop playing 25 minutes a game in the AHL and so far he has answered his critics on his abilities by playing what he is advertised as, a physical, offensive defenceman with above average skating.

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10-27-2007, 07:51 PM
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Bourdon's offensive start is encouraging, but size/skills/tools were never the question with him.

The issue is his defensive play, which has to this point in his career been a massive disappointment. And in the 4-5 games I've seen of him this year in preseason and in the AHL, he's still struggling mightily with his decision-making in his own zone.

The player I'm continually reminded of in Bourdon is Jeff Jillson - another guy who had NHL size, skill, skating ability, mean streak, but simply couldn't think the game in his own zone. Hopefully Bourdon improves in his ability to think the game, but to me he's still touch-and-go as to whether he'll be an effective NHL player.

Regardless of stats, I'd still take Staal easily.

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10-27-2007, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Basing players on their past junior experiences is a falliable argument and to really justify a prospects dominance is comparing thier statistics to the league they are determined to play in, which of course is the NHL.

To argue the strengths or weaknesses of a prospect is mainly on statistics which gives an indication of their on ice-play.
I'm not going to argue this point. I think most people will disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Staal may have the trust of his coach and GM but this is a weak argument because coaches and GM's have different styles and business also interferes with the descision on whether a player stays up or not.
Bourdon wasn't trusted because he couldn't be trusted, not because of any style of his coach or GM.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Bourdon simply has no room to develop in the NHL with the current core of defence the Canucks have and would burn a year off his contract if he was given the 7th spot at the salary of 1.35 million.
give me a break. the Canucks signed Aaron Miller and claimed Mike Weaver off waivers. if they really thought he was ready they would have made space for him. they could have moved Krajicek as well (like the Rangers did with Rachunek for Staal).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
It better for him to develop playing 25 minutes a game in the AHL and so far he has answered his critics on his abilities by playing what he is advertised as, a physical, offensive defenceman with above average skating
for 9 games...

also your AHL stats for Bourdon are incomplete. you forgot to add in his 5 games last season (0-0-0, -3)

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10-27-2007, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I'm not going to argue this point. I think most people will disagree with you.
You are not going to argue against because you do not have a counter-argument towards it. I agree statistics do not paint the whole picture of the player but statistics give a strong indication of the players on-ice play.


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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Bourdon wasn't trusted because he couldn't be trusted, not because of any style of his coach or GM.
Bourdon had a strong camp last season and made the final cut on the Canucks roster, however, he was a 19 year old rookie playing on a team that was totally out of sync. Alain Vigneault is notorious for giving minimal ice-time to rookies and gives them less leeway compared to the veterans. Alexander Edler is NHL-ready however he continues to bounce up and down from the Canucks roster although his tenure has been successful. You argue that Marc Staal has won the trust of the coach but looking at total ice-time he plays the least amount of minutes on the NYR defence group.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
give me a break. the Canucks signed Aaron Miller and claimed Mike Weaver off waivers. if they really thought he was ready they would have made space for him. they could have moved Krajicek as well (like the Rangers did with Rachunek for Staal).
This is the weakest statement out of your whole defence, you should research more into Canucks situation before you start creating invalid arguments. The Canucks signed Aaron Miller as a 6th defenceman because the Canucks organization desired a veteran, stay-at-home defenceman to enable Kraijeck's offensive abilities. Dave Nonis likes to build from the goaltending out and and one thing he is very keen on is defensive depth. Mike Weaver was claimed off waivers again for defensive depth as the 7th defenceman who will play a limited amount of minutes. Now why would Alain Vigneault hinder his premium defence prospects development by keeping them in the press box? The Canucks cannot make space for their defence prospects because 3 defenceman feature NTC in their respected contracts(Ohlund, Salo, Mitchell) and the Canucks will not sacrifice their two young defenceman who can only improve on their play(Bieksa, Kraijeck). You suggest Canucks should trade Kraijeck in order to make room for Bourdon. Kraijeck is 24 years old and arguably is our best defenceman this season, he was also an integral part of the Luongo trade as Nonis had specifically asked for him because he has a future with the Canucks organization.


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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
for 9 games...
He was drafted because he was a defenceman that displayed all those assets I had listed and now he is translating those advertised assets on to the ice. Albeit 9 games but he is still proving that he has abilities to do so.

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
also your AHL stats for Bourdon are incomplete. you forgot to add in his 5 games last season (0-0-0, -3)
Regardless, Bourdons overall statistics in the AHL are more superior than Marc Staals statistics.

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10-28-2007, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Regardless, Bourdons overall statistics in the AHL are more superior than Marc Staals statistics.
Except, you know, Staal is in the NHL and Bourdon is not. So this is kind of a weird argument. I guess you're trying to extrapolate Bourdon's future NHL numbers based off of his AHL numbers, and saying that those current numbers indicate that he could be/will be a superior NHL player. That kind of thing is pretty dicey to do, however. Not very easy to compare across leagues like that.

Overall, I think I like the package that Staal will bring over what Bourdon will, but I make that statement with the caveat that I haven't seen Bourdon play much. I'm going a lot off of what people who have seen him play say about him. Strong, physical offensive defenseman. Maybe like a Souray type?

What I see in Staal at the NHL level so far, however, is glimpses of what made him an absolutely dominate juniors defenseman. Going straight to the NHL from juniors and still showing signs of that ability is encouraging. I think it'll take him a year to truly adjust, but some of the plays he makes out there are really, really intelligent and veteran plays. And not just run of the mill veteran plays, I mean high end veteran plays.

You can also see some signs of what made him more than just a shut down defenseman in the OHL. He can carry the puck and can go deep with it. He can read the play well and step in to intercept a pass and start the play the other direction. True, as a rookie he still gets caught sometimes when he decides to pinch (and I think that happens when he tries to expand his game a little more beyond just doing the simple things, but that will come with more experience). But overall, it's very easy to see how he could be a dominate defenseman that doesn't necessarily score 50+ points or something. Of course, that all hinges on his continued development.

For me, I think it boils down to Bourdon being the type of defenseman who could be dominant in the offensive zone with his shot and offensive skills, and who will throw some big flashy checks. I think Staal could be the type that's dominate in all three zones, but not so much in the offensive end. I think ultimately that Staals offensive skills are geared more towards getting the puck to the offensive zone, rather than he himself scoring once it gets there.

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10-28-2007, 03:41 PM
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IMO staal is and will be better. and its not even close...

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10-28-2007, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You are not going to argue against because you do not have a counter-argument towards it. I agree statistics do not paint the whole picture of the player but statistics give a strong indication of the players on-ice play.
not really, especially not when comparing a primarily defensive defenseman to a prominently offensive one. especially not when you say their 3 years of juniors aren't relective of how good NHL players they will be, but their dozen games in the AHL are because it fits your argument.

could you really see a GM saying to his scouts "don't give me this talent analysis crap, what are his stats?"

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Bourdon had a strong camp last season and made the final cut on the Canucks roster, however, he was a 19 year old rookie playing on a team that was totally out of sync. Alain Vigneault is notorious for giving minimal ice-time to rookies and gives them less leeway compared to the veterans.
I saw Bourdon play. it wasn't Vigneault giving him the shaft, it was Bourdon's inability that led to his lack of ice.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You argue that Marc Staal has won the trust of the coach but looking at total ice-time he plays the least amount of minutes on the NYR defence group
Yeah. he still gets 13 minutes and a regular shift at even strength and the PK. compare that the Bourdon's 8:50 at the least important moments of a game.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
This is the weakest statement out of your whole defence, you should research more into Canucks situation before you start creating invalid arguments.
please.

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The Canucks signed Aaron Miller as a 6th defenceman because the Canucks organization desired a veteran, stay-at-home defenceman to enable Kraijeck's offensive abilities.
ok, so instead of building for Bourdon, they're making personnel moves for a defenceman as marginal as Krajicek.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Dave Nonis likes to build from the goaltending out and and one thing he is very keen on is defensive depth.
every GM is keen on defensive depth. Sather brought in 8 defensemen with NHL experience this year, but Marc Staal beat out 3 of them.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
The Canucks cannot make space for their defence prospects because 3 defenceman feature NTC in their respected contracts(Ohlund, Salo, Mitchell) and the Canucks will not sacrifice their two young defenceman who can only improve on their play(Bieksa, Kraijeck). You suggest Canucks should trade Kraijeck in order to make room for Bourdon. Kraijeck is 24 years old and arguably is our best defenceman this season, he was also an integral part of the Luongo trade as Nonis had specifically asked for him because he has a future with the Canucks organization.
obviously he's not going to make the team at the expense of Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo or Bieksa, NTC's or not. but if Bourdon was really ready, he would have grabbed one of the last two spots. if Bourdon was really better than Marc Staal, there's no way guys like Weaver, Krajicek, and Miller play over him.

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Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
He was drafted because he was a defenceman that displayed all those assets I had listed and now he is translating those advertised assets on to the ice. Albeit 9 games but he is still proving that he has abilities to do so.
I know he has the ability. to me he's just a pile of unrealized potential though. if he can string together a good full season, and I'm not just talking about goals and assists, then we'll talk. until then, maybe we should be comparing him to Hugh Jessiman instead of Marc Staal.

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10-28-2007, 07:29 PM
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You have not replied back with any substanial evidence rather you reply back with scenarios on what Dave Nonis should do, or a simple "please". It's quite ovbious I am wasting my time.

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10-28-2007, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
ok, so instead of building for Bourdon, they're making personnel moves for a defenceman as marginal as Krajicek.

I am not going to join in this debate, but in this you are wrong. Krajicek is far from a marginal Dman.

He has been great for us this year.

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10-28-2007, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You have not replied back with any substanial evidence rather you reply back with scenarios on what Dave Nonis should do, or a simple "please". It's quite ovbious I am wasting my time.
You don't have any ****ing evidence either.

Your guy is in the AHL.

Our guy is playing great in the NHL.

Seriously. It's not that hard.

There isn't anyone who isn't a Canucks fan who'd take Bourdon over Staal, most likely.

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10-28-2007, 07:52 PM
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Staal, and it's not close at this point.

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10-28-2007, 08:39 PM
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You don't have any ****ing evidence either.

Your guy is in the AHL.

Our guy is playing great in the NHL.

Seriously. It's not that hard.

There isn't anyone who isn't a Canucks fan who'd take Bourdon over Staal, most likely.
You should read the debate before you make accusations that I do not have any evidence. I was mainly pointing out on how -31- said Dave Nonis should build around for Bourdon and I basically stated that it does not make sense.

Also, think of this as an arbitrary meeting, you can only provide a case with documented evidence, in this case its statistics and not a biased opinion on how the player is performing. You claim Marc Staal is playing great but in truth his play is below-average thus results in his statistics. Remember this, statistics are tools to measure how a player is performing; 10GP, 0G, 0A, -2, 7 shots, 0PIM

a whole lot of doughnuts...

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10-28-2007, 08:45 PM
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IMO staal is and will be better. and its not even close...
without Bourdon we would not have won the Gold medal buddy.

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10-28-2007, 08:53 PM
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Any Canuck fan who suggest Bourdon is a better player than Marc Staal at this point is a blind homer.

Two weeks ago before Bourdon started playing in the AHL most fans were labelling him a bust, now just because he's put up 7 points in 10 games he's suddenly back to golden boy status? C'mon.

I like Bourdon as much as the next guy but stats can only show so much and by all reports from people who actually WATCH the Moose games and don't just look at the box score, Bourdon may be scoring but his defensive shortcomings are still very apparent and have cost the team more than a couple times.

Marc Staal is NHL ready. Luc Bourdon has a LONG way to go and he will never be the defensive player that Staal is. He may put up better numbers but he won't be as good of a player.

That said, I am a Bourdon fan and I'm rooting for him, but I'm also rooting for him from an objective and rational perspective which is something I'd encourage some of my fellow Canuck fans to try.

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10-28-2007, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You should read the debate before you make accusations that I do not have any evidence. I was mainly pointing out on how -31- said Dave Nonis should build around for Bourdon and I basically stated that it does not make sense.

Also, think of this as an arbitrary meeting, you can only provide a case with documented evidence, in this case its statistics and not a biased opinion on how the player is performing. You claim Marc Staal is playing great but in truth his play is below-average thus results in his statistics. Remember this, statistics are tools to measure how a player is performing; 10GP, 0G, 0A, -2, 7 shots, 0PIM

a whole lot of doughnuts...
Im sorry, I always thought the main job of a defenseman was to play DEFENSE? Staal is on a whole other level then Luc when it comes to playing defense.

I guess you'd rather have Andy Delmore on your team then Mattias Ohlund though right? Looks at those amazing stats Delmore has put up in the AHL .

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