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Luc Bourdon vs Marc Staal

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Old
10-28-2007, 08:03 PM
  #26
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Never was a big fan of Bourdon to be honest, I was hoping we'd take Staal that year to be honest. I think Staal will be the better overall player, but theres a chance Bourdon will get more points.

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10-28-2007, 08:03 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck5056 View Post
Any Canuck fan who suggest Bourdon is a better player than Marc Staal at this point is a blind homer.

Two weeks ago before Bourdon started playing in the AHL most fans were labelling him a bust, now just because he's put up 7 points in 10 games he's suddenly back to golden boy status? C'mon.

I like Bourdon as much as the next guy but stats can only show so much and by all reports from people who actually WATCH the Moose games and don't just look at the box score, Bourdon may be scoring but his defensive shortcomings are still very apparent and have cost the team more than a couple times.

Marc Staal is NHL ready. Luc Bourdon has a LONG way to go and he will never be the defensive player that Staal is. He may put up better numbers but he won't be as good of a player.

That said, I am a Bourdon fan and I'm rooting for him, but I'm also rooting for him from an objective and rational perspective which is something I'd encourage some of my fellow Canuck fans to try.
+1

Well, actually, he's had defensive lapses, but nothing terrible to the point of costing them the win yet - just a turnover or giveaway occasionally, and he usually recovers in time. He needs some work on that and his positioning, but all things considered, he's improving.

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Originally Posted by lennie View Post
I am not going to join in this debate, but in this you are wrong. Krajicek is far from a marginal Dman.

He has been great for us this year.
+2

Whoever thinks that Krajicek is a marginal D-man clearly just told the world that he hasn't been watching Canucks games, starting from the last playoffs. Budding top-4 guy right there with smooth skating, good decision making and first past, emerging physical edge, and good PP QB. Marginal?

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10-28-2007, 08:07 PM
  #28
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the +\- gives indication if the player is a liability on the ice or not.

I am not saying Bourdon is substantially better than Marc Staal but people who make the claim "Marc Staal is better and its not even close" should be re-examined.

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10-28-2007, 08:08 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Also, think of this as an arbitrary meeting, you can only provide a case with documented evidence, in this case its statistics and not a biased opinion on how the player is performing. You claim Marc Staal is playing great but in truth his play is below-average thus results in his statistics. Remember this, statistics are tools to measure how a player is performing; 10GP, 0G, 0A, -2, 7 shots, 0PIM
But comparing stats between a defensive d-man like Staal and an offensive d-man like Bourdon is boneheaded. Comparing AHL/NHL stats also doesn't make sense. You have no facts to back up your logic because all of your "statistical evidence" can be discredited with simple reasoning. Look I like Bourdon and think he has a lot of potential - but your methodology just makes no sense.

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10-28-2007, 08:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by nyrfan444 View Post
But comparing stats between a defensive d-man like Staal and an offensive d-man like Bourdon is boneheaded. Comparing AHL/NHL stats also doesn't make sense. You have no facts to back up your logic because all of your "statistical evidence" can be discredited with simple reasoning. Look I like Bourdon and think he has a lot of potential - but your methodology just makes no sense.
I am comparing AHL to AHL stats and NHL to NHL stats. Marc Staal has basically started this season identical to Luc Bourdons yet people claim Staal is light years ahead of Bourdon.

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10-28-2007, 08:14 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
I am comparing AHL to AHL stats and NHL to NHL stats. Marc Staal has basically started this season identical to Luc Bourdons yet people claim Staal is light years ahead of Bourdon.
Fine, I must have misunderstood. Either way, 10 games is way too small of a sample size. If you want to make this argument after a full season, I'll come back to this thread and listen.

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10-28-2007, 08:15 PM
  #32
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Untouchable you're just embarassing yourself with this weak statistical argument you're attempting to use.

Let's use your "unbiased" statistical evaluation to measure the performance of two other defencemen:

Willie Mitchell: 11GP, 0G, 1A, 1P, 0 +/-, 17 PIM
Chris Campoli: 9GP, 2G, 7A, 9P, -5 +/-, 4 PIM

Now by your absurdly faulty logic, Chris Campoli is a better player than Willie Mitchell? And it's not debatable, since statistics are unbiased and "tools to measure how a player is performing"? And naturally, opinions from people who have actually WATCHED the two defenceman play absolutely useless and always biased, and thus should be disregarded in favour of the "almighty statistic."

Or could it be that Willie Mitchell plays DEFENSE, where Chris Campoli lacks in that area but excels at offense? Kinda like how Marc Staal plays DEFENSE (and offense, for that matter) whereas Luc Bourdon lacks in that area? What statistics show that?

Give your head a shake.

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10-28-2007, 08:35 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck5056 View Post
Untouchable you're just embarassing yourself with this weak statistical argument you're attempting to use.

Let's use your "unbiased" statistical evaluation to measure the performance of two other defencemen:

Willie Mitchell: 11GP, 0G, 1A, 1P, 0 +/-, 17 PIM
Chris Campoli: 9GP, 2G, 7A, 9P, -5 +/-, 4 PIM

Now by your absurdly faulty logic, Chris Campoli is a better player than Willie Mitchell? And it's not debatable, since statistics are unbiased and "tools to measure how a player is performing"? And naturally, opinions from people who have actually WATCHED the two defenceman play absolutely useless and always biased, and thus should be disregarded in favour of the "almighty statistic."

Or could it be that Willie Mitchell plays DEFENSE, where Chris Campoli lacks in that area but excels at offense? Kinda like how Marc Staal plays DEFENSE (and offense, for that matter) whereas Luc Bourdon lacks in that area? What statistics show that?

Give your head a shake.
Whats interesting here is that you listed two different style of defenceman and compared their stats to validate your pathetic point. Willie Mitchell is a defensive-defenceman and Chris Campoli is an offensive-defenceman.

Marc Staal and Luc Bourdon both possess the same qualities and play a similar style of game and both are labelled as two-way defenceman which is why I am comparing their stats.

You claim that statistical evidence is a weak argument well in arbitration when the player and coach are debating over their salaries the main tool the arbitrator has is the players statistics. The arbitrator then proceeds to look at players that play the similar style of game and find an equilibrium point for the deciding salary.

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10-28-2007, 08:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
Whats interesting here is that you listed two different style of defenceman and compared their stats to validate your pathetic point. Willie Mitchell is a defensive-defenceman and Chris Campoli is an offensive-defenceman.

Marc Staal and Luc Bourdon both possess the same qualities and play a similar style of game and both are labelled as two-way defenceman which is why I am comparing their stats.

You claim that statistical evidence is a weak argument well in arbitration when the player and coach are debating over their salaries the main tool the arbitrator has is the players statistics. The arbitrator then proceeds to look at players that play the similar style of game and find an equilibrium point for the deciding salary.


Whats interesting here is that YOU listed two different styles of defenceman and compared their stats to validate YOUR pathetic point. Marc Staal is a defensive-defenceman with solid offensive insticts (I.E. Mattias Ohlund) whereas Luc Bourdon is an offensive-defenceman with bad defensive skills and poor decision making (I.E. Ed Jovanovski). Are Ohlund and Jovanovski comparable by statistical evaluation? No.

If you're trying to claim that Marc Staal and Luc Bourdon are the same type of defenceman, than...well I'm just not going to bother arguing with you, because that's just hopeless.

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10-28-2007, 08:47 PM
  #35
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I'd take Marc Staal but I think that Bourdon will become a solid NHL defender someday. As for Rangers' fans saying how great Staal is playing in the NHL, how great can you look playing just 13 min/game? It's not like he's playing tough minutes.

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10-28-2007, 08:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You claim Marc Staal is playing great but in truth his play is below-average thus results in his statistics. Remember this, statistics are tools to measure how a player is performing; 10GP, 0G, 0A, -2, 7 shots, 0PIM
I was going to say that this was the dumbest thing I've seen someone say on hfboards, but then I realized what message board I was talking about. Still, it's pretty far up there. A very ignorant statement.

What is more interesting to me, however, is what exactly was the purpose of this thread. It's not for information, that's for sure. You seem like you were spoiling for an argument and ready to put Staal down to anyone who talked about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
As for Rangers' fans saying how great Staal is playing in the NHL, how great can you look playing just 13 min/game? It's not like he's playing tough minutes.
What? He's playing the PK, he's playing a pretty regular shift. Just because the coaches aren't throwing him into the fire and forcing him to play 20 minutes a night doesn't mean he can't be having a good start to the season. He looks good when he's on the ice, how hard is that to understand?

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10-28-2007, 08:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck5056 View Post


Whats interesting here is that YOU listed two different styles of defenceman and compared their stats to validate YOUR pathetic point. Marc Staal is a defensive-defenceman with solid offensive insticts (I.E. Mattias Ohlund) whereas Luc Bourdon is an offensive-defenceman with bad defensive skills and poor decision making (I.E. Ed Jovanovski). Are Ohlund and Jovanovski comparable by statistical evaluation? No.

If you're trying to claim that Marc Staal and Luc Bourdon are the same type of defenceman, than...well I'm just not going to bother arguing with you, because that's just hopeless.
Tell me on what basis is Luc Bourdon exclusively an offensive-defenceman and Marc Staal solely being a defensive-defenceman. When Luc Bourdon was drafted, Nonis specifally said Luc Bourdon does a bit of everything and will be a good two-way defenceman. Marc Staal established himself as a two-way defenceman in the OHL when he consistently scored and put back-to-back 60 point seasons.

If your main thesis of your argument is that Luc Bourdon is like Jovonovski and Marc Staal is like Mattias Ohlund therefore we cannot compare them then you made it quite clear that I am wasting my time even debating with you.

Luc Bourdon was a very good defenceman in the minors who was a top plus player in the QMJHL while consistently putting up points. hmm that seems to mirror Marc Staals Junior career so if you evoke your theory that these two defenceman are completely different then you should give your head shake and not spew blatant pointless statements with no foundation.

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10-28-2007, 08:59 PM
  #38
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Bourdon is probably going to suck.

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10-28-2007, 08:59 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You should read the debate before you make accusations that I do not have any evidence. I was mainly pointing out on how -31- said Dave Nonis should build around for Bourdon and I basically stated that it does not make sense.

Also, think of this as an arbitrary meeting, you can only provide a case with documented evidence, in this case its statistics and not a biased opinion on how the player is performing. You claim Marc Staal is playing great but in truth his play is below-average thus results in his statistics. Remember this, statistics are tools to measure how a player is performing; 10GP, 0G, 0A, -2, 7 shots, 0PIM

a whole lot of doughnuts...
So, based off of statistics, than Lundqvist is a better goaltender than Luongo and Rozsival is a better defenseman than Ohlund.

Do you see this? Do you see how stupid it is to base an entire argument off of statistics?

Marc Staal is a much better player. Statistics or not. Using statistics is THE WORST way to analyze players.

It's actually laughable that you look at Staal's statistics and say his play is "below average".

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10-28-2007, 09:01 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
What? He's playing the PK, he's playing a pretty regular shift. Just because the coaches aren't throwing him into the fire and forcing him to play 20 minutes a night doesn't mean he can't be having a good start to the season. He looks good when he's on the ice, how hard is that to understand?
Apparently it's EXTREMELY hard...

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10-28-2007, 09:02 PM
  #41
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At this point in time I think you would have to take Stall. But Bourdon still has all the potential to be just as good as Stall. In fact he has the skillset to be a more dominant dman.

The comparison between Jovanovski(Bourdon) vs Ohlund(Stall) are very accurate.
At the top of his game, Jovanovski is easily the more dominant dman. But he plays a far more risky and inconsistant game. Jovo was unable to play at that high level of play very often as a result most people would rather have Ohlund.

Lets also not forget that Bourdon shattered his ankle, and while he was still able to play.. his next year in the Qmjhl was essentially wasted as he had very limited mobility.

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10-28-2007, 09:02 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Malik Fan View Post
Bourdon is probably going to suck.
ah yes, a great post with substance

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10-28-2007, 09:08 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
So, based off of statistics, than Lundqvist is a better goaltender than Luongo and Rozsival is a better defenseman than Ohlund.

Do you see this? Do you see how stupid it is to base an entire argument off of statistics?

Marc Staal is a much better player. Statistics or not. Using statistics is THE WORST way to analyze players.

It's actually laughable that you look at Staal's statistics and say his play is "below average".
Well you see the players you have listed are established players in the NHL therefore they already have established their repuatation and accomplishments. Luc Bourdon and Marc Staal are 20 year old rookies and are playing to prove their worth and establish themselves the players they are ought to be.

Also, Luongo has not played like the typical Luongo and his on-ice play has affected his statistics. Ohlund has had played poorly so far in this season and guess what? his blunders on the blue-line, his shaky puck-handling has affected his stats in a negative direction. Who ever thought that logic would work?

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10-28-2007, 09:17 PM
  #44
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Bourdon is gonna end up being an offensive dman type, and Staal is gonna end up being a defensive type, Adam Foote, at this point I think Staal is better then Bourdon. They both have their own abilities. Bourdon can skate as fast as anyone, and hit, and play offence, Staal does not have Bourdon's speed, or offensive instints but gets the job done in his own end.

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10-28-2007, 10:07 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
You have not replied back with any substanial evidence rather you reply back with scenarios on what Dave Nonis should do, or a simple "please". It's quite ovbious I am wasting my time.
it is obvious, but it's not because of me. your right all I'm bringing is my opinion on watching them play, while you're bringing a small sample of statistics for a defenseman whose value can't be represented by statistics, and a biased look on which statistics can be used.

I'm not saying what Dave Nonis should do (I have no problem with what's he's done), I'm just saying what he would have done if Bourdon were in fact NHL ready, similar to what Sather did for Staal.

as for Krajicek being marginal, in my mind he's a good #4/#5, but he's not the kind of guy that should prevent a yound stud from getting his minutes.

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10-28-2007, 11:58 PM
  #46
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as for Krajicek being marginal, in my mind he's a good #4/#5, but he's not the kind of guy that should prevent a yound stud from getting his minutes.
Then you haven't seen him play this season.

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10-29-2007, 01:08 AM
  #47
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Staal is over-rated for the name on his back rather than his actual play... I have seen him play many time in the OHL, and nothing stands out about him, he is AVERAGE. To me, Bourdons upside is more than Staal, but many will disagree with me, because majority are bias with the name. If Luc Bourdon's name would be Luc Staal... this would be a different story.

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10-29-2007, 01:42 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DayQuil View Post
Staal is over-rated for the name on his back rather than his actual play... I have seen him play many time in the OHL, and nothing stands out about him, he is AVERAGE. To me, Bourdons upside is more than Staal, but many will disagree with me, because majority are bias with the name. If Luc Bourdon's name would be Luc Staal... this would be a different story.
canuck fan here. I don't get to watch much junior games, but i did watch the WJCS. And i have to say that Staal and Parent were as good a shutdown pair as i've ever seen in their age group. And i don't care much about his name. I remember thinking letang was better than bourdon back then too.

I think Bourdon has more physical attributes like strength and speed but his stint in Vancouver was VERY poor. He was so bad, AV played him like 8 minutes a game. He really seems like he lacks the hockey sense to be in the NHL.

Although it is still early, but you got to take staal before bourdon at this moment, no doubt in my mind.

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10-29-2007, 01:49 AM
  #49
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canuck fan here. I don't get to watch much junior games, but i did watch the WJCS. And i have to say that Staal and Parent were as good a shutdown pair as i've ever seen in their age group. And i don't care much about his name. I remember thinking letang was better than bourdon back then too.

I think Bourdon has more physical attributes like strength and speed but his stint in Vancouver was VERY poor. He was so bad, AV played him like 8 minutes a game. He really seems like he lacks the hockey sense to be in the NHL.

Although it is still early, but you got to take staal before bourdon at this moment, no doubt in my mind.
I think the thing is a lot of people saw Bourdon last year and have a pretty negative opinion about him. Apparently his ankle was not healed and it caused him problems all year. The WJC prior Bourdon was the D-man of the tournament.

Which is the real Bourdon? Only time will tell.

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10-29-2007, 04:59 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by jin View Post
I think the thing is a lot of people saw Bourdon last year and have a pretty negative opinion about him. Apparently his ankle was not healed and it caused him problems all year. The WJC prior Bourdon was the D-man of the tournament.

Which is the real Bourdon? Only time will tell.
Wasn't Staal the top defencemen in the 2006 WJC?

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