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Luc Bourdon vs Marc Staal

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Old
10-29-2007, 10:49 AM
  #51
Thirty One
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Originally Posted by Grabtastic View Post
Then you haven't seen him play this season.
only a couple games. enlighten me then, what is he? a #3? a #2? give me a ****ing break.

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Old
10-29-2007, 12:50 PM
  #52
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Brian Lee

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8 GP, 1 G, 8 A, 9 PTS, +3

He should probably be included in this debate, since he was drafted before these two.

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10-29-2007, 12:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DayQuil View Post
Staal is over-rated for the name on his back rather than his actual play... I have seen him play many time in the OHL, and nothing stands out about him, he is AVERAGE. To me, Bourdons upside is more than Staal, but many will disagree with me, because majority are bias with the name. If Luc Bourdon's name would be Luc Staal... this would be a different story.
He was the *Best* player in the entire OHL playoffs this year. Not bad for someone you claim is average.

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10-29-2007, 01:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Gohan44 View Post
Wasn't Staal the top defencemen in the 2006 WJC?
The way it worked out one was on the tournament team (Staal) and one was the d-man of the tourney (Bourdon). Atleast I think that's how it played out.

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10-29-2007, 01:28 PM
  #55
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you thought wroung

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Old
10-29-2007, 01:29 PM
  #56
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Brian Lee.

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On the topic though. You can't say that one player is better than the other just because one player is playing in the NHL and the other isn't. For one thing, the Ranger's blue-line is hardly as deep as the Canucks. Besides, when you are evaluating players, it's not exactly fair just to judge them on their first few years. Comparing players (esp. prospects), you have to look at potential as well as current results.

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Old
10-29-2007, 01:51 PM
  #57
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This is a bum rap!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Bourdon's offensive start is encouraging, but size/skills/tools were never the question with him.

The issue is his defensive play, which has to this point in his career been a massive disappointment. And in the 4-5 games I've seen of him this year in preseason and in the AHL, he's still struggling mightily with his decision-making in his own zone.

The player I'm continually reminded of in Bourdon is Jeff Jillson - another guy who had NHL size, skill, skating ability, mean streak, but simply couldn't think the game in his own zone. Hopefully Bourdon improves in his ability to think the game, but to me he's still touch-and-go as to whether he'll be an effective NHL player.

Regardless of stats, I'd still take Staal easily.
I don't know what vendetta you have for Bourdon however, much of what you quote is untrue. I have had the opportunity to watch 4 Moose games live this year (work has brought me to Winnipeg), and Bourdon has been outstanding.

This kid is a stud who has skating, toughness, and drive like no other player I have watched on any team he has competed against. Sure he takes risks once in a while but, I am glad that he does. He is learning at this level of hockey, and you will never become a great hockey player without taking risks and seeing what your limits are.

I can remember posters like you condemning Paul Coffey in his early years for the Oilers. This player always took risks, and did not conform to the typical stay at home defenseman. All Paul Coffey did in future years was help lead his team to multiple Stanley Cups and had a Hall of Fame career.

Will Bourdon become the next Paul Coffey? Only time will tell, and I would be happy if Luc turned out to be half the player that Coffey was. One thing I can say is that Bourdon has that same breakaway speed and drive that Coffey showed for many years. On top of that, Bourdon is very strong on the puck and is gritty.

I think that you are being very premature in writing this player off. I believe that the Canucks are doing just the right thing in not rushing this special talent. Give this kid another year and you will see a special player start to develop in Vancouver.

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Old
10-29-2007, 02:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickEaves View Post
Brian Lee.

--

On the topic though. You can't say that one player is better than the other just because one player is playing in the NHL and the other isn't. For one thing, the Ranger's blue-line is hardly as deep as the Canucks. .
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's all Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.

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Old
10-29-2007, 02:41 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's al Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.
I don't think there is a sane GM in the league that would take the Rangers top 6 defenceman over the Canucks top 6 defenceman. The first 10 games or so of the season doesn't change that.

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Old
10-29-2007, 02:47 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's all Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.
After years of the Cloutier-Crawford ordeal, I must say it feels damn good to hear that.

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10-29-2007, 02:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
I don't think there is a sane GM in the league that would take the Rangers top 6 defenceman over the Canucks top 6 defenceman. The first 10 games or so of the season doesn't change that.

That's probably true, but my point is not to get into a phallus measuring contest about who has more talent on the blueline, but rather that it's a pretty week argument to knock the ranger's defensive depth when they have been nothing short of excellent this year.

Staal is playing significant minutes in defensive corps that has been exceptional.

I have no interest in entering the Staal/Bourdon debate, I just want to point out, that so far this season, Marc Staal has done everything necessary to prove that he belongs in the NHL.


Last edited by xander: 10-29-2007 at 02:57 PM.
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Old
10-29-2007, 03:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I'm not saying what Dave Nonis should do (I have no problem with what's he's done), I'm just saying what he would have done if Bourdon were in fact NHL ready, similar to what Sather did for Staal.
That makes no sense whatsoever, you are backpedaling and contradicting yourself. Also, why would Nonis, a respectable GM, follow Glen Sathers model of constructing a hockey organization with your recent failures and players with monumental salaries that will hurt the club now and in the future. However, that is another argument and should not be risen again in the current topic.


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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
as for Krajicek being marginal, in my mind he's a good #4/#5, but he's not the kind of guy that should prevent a yound stud from getting his minutes.
In your mind based on what knowledge? I suggest you retract this statement since you have not researched enough on him but rather make a fallacious claim with no supporting reasons. Kraijeck, this season, has been the best Canucks defenceman and a bright spot on a team that has yet to gel. Kraijeck is an integral part to the Canucks D core with his offensive abilities, his new-found physical edge, and effortless skating. He is only 24 years old and is still honing his game so before you suggest Kraijeck is a marginal defenceman support your thesis with solid facts.

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Old
10-29-2007, 03:17 PM
  #63
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back to the topic....

granted i am a rangers fan and i have seen every rangers game this season....

i love the way marc staal plays.....i wouldnt trade him for any other young defenceman in the league, no matter who it is(on a 1 for 1 deal).......he is maturing with every game and he has good size and great skating ability......he is what this team needs.....

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Old
10-29-2007, 03:42 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's all Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.
The entire team has been garbage defensively at one point or another this season. Luongo has looked human in more games than he's looked like Luongo.

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Old
10-29-2007, 04:22 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's all Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.
(Psst. I'm not a Canucks fan.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
That's probably true, but my point is not to get into a phallus measuring contest about who has more talent on the blueline, but rather that it's a pretty week argument to knock the ranger's defensive depth when they have been nothing short of excellent this year.

Staal is playing significant minutes in defensive corps that has been exceptional.

I have no interest in entering the Staal/Bourdon debate, I just want to point out, that so far this season, Marc Staal has done everything necessary to prove that he belongs in the NHL.
Team defense =/= Individual defensive talent

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Old
10-29-2007, 06:08 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by membleypeg View Post
I don't know what vendetta you have for Bourdon however, much of what you quote is untrue. I have had the opportunity to watch 4 Moose games live this year (work has brought me to Winnipeg), and Bourdon has been outstanding.

This kid is a stud who has skating, toughness, and drive like no other player I have watched on any team he has competed against. Sure he takes risks once in a while but, I am glad that he does. He is learning at this level of hockey, and you will never become a great hockey player without taking risks and seeing what your limits are.

I can remember posters like you condemning Paul Coffey in his early years for the Oilers. This player always took risks, and did not conform to the typical stay at home defenseman. All Paul Coffey did in future years was help lead his team to multiple Stanley Cups and had a Hall of Fame career.

Will Bourdon become the next Paul Coffey? Only time will tell, and I would be happy if Luc turned out to be half the player that Coffey was. One thing I can say is that Bourdon has that same breakaway speed and drive that Coffey showed for many years. On top of that, Bourdon is very strong on the puck and is gritty.

I think that you are being very premature in writing this player off. I believe that the Canucks are doing just the right thing in not rushing this special talent. Give this kid another year and you will see a special player start to develop in Vancouver.
I can tell you now. Bourdon will not become the next Paul Coffey.

Defensive lapses can be excused for the 2nd greatest offensive defenseman ever. Bourdon doesn't have anything close to that potential in the opposition zone, so a comparison with Coffey is well off-base.

He was having big problems in his own end the last time I saw him play (WJCs), so if he hasn't cleaned up his game considerably, MS's assessment of Bourdon's AHL experience is probably pretty bang-on.

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Old
10-29-2007, 06:43 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
I can tell you now. Bourdon will not become the next Paul Coffey.
Thanks for the tip Kreskin.

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Old
10-29-2007, 06:51 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
That's probably true, but my point is not to get into a phallus measuring contest about who has more talent on the blueline, but rather that it's a pretty week argument to knock the ranger's defensive depth when they have been nothing short of excellent this year.

Staal is playing significant minutes in defensive corps that has been exceptional.

I have no interest in entering the Staal/Bourdon debate, I just want to point out, that so far this season, Marc Staal has done everything necessary to prove that he belongs in the NHL.
They're still breaking him in pretty slowly, are they not. He's 6th on the team among defenceman for even strength, powerplay and short-handed ice time. He's playing almost a full four minutes less than the next guy on the depth chart. I admittedly haven't really watched him this season, but, that's hardly the stats sheet of a guy tearing up the league.

And, without turning this into a pissing match about who has the best defensive core, the opportunity for a rookie to step into a defensive role has been pretty high on the Rangers. Defensive depth has been a known issue. I know the question has been raised in Ottawa, that had we drafted Staal instead of Lee, would he be any closer than Lee is to the NHL right now, and the answer is, likely not.

Staal has shown through 10 games that he may be a #6 defenceman on the Rangers, but, he still has a long way to go, just like Bourdon, or Brian Lee, that he is a full fledged NHL player.

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10-29-2007, 07:50 PM
  #69
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He's playing 13 minutes a night, including pk time, and he hasn't been riding the bench in the third period. I never said he's been tearing up the league, I said he's played like a guy who belongs on an NHL blueline.

And you have to understand that this is the Ranger's MO with young ayers, they always get broken in slowly. As someone who's seen every game this year, I've been very happy with his play. He's been smart, he's been very good in his own zone, and just generally hasn't looked like a rookie. He's done everything that has been asked of him.

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10-29-2007, 07:57 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by membleypeg View Post
Thanks for the tip Kreskin.
Any time. Bryan Little won't become the next Wayne Gretzky either.

I know. I'm surprised too!

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Old
10-29-2007, 09:57 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
Rangers GAA: 2.00

Canucks GAA: 3.08

Please explain to me how the Ranger's blueline is 'hardly as deep as the Canucks'? And don't give me the 'it's all Lundqvist argument', you guys have the best goalie in the world between the pipes.
Rangers' GF: 16

Canucks' GF: 32

Does this mean that the Canucks offence is 2x as good as the Ranger's? No, it's just a small sample size.

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Old
10-29-2007, 10:03 PM
  #72
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While I won't pretend that the Rangers D is individually as good/as deep as the Cannucks, the Rangers did make the conscious decision to give Staal the roster spot. It's not like he had no one at all to beat out and it was his by default.

And they pretty much gave up on Pock to do so. Not that Pock was some great defenseman they chose Staal over, but he played well at the end of last year for the Rangers and had a very good camp and preseason. Staal earning that spot over Pock kind of sealed Pock's fate with the Rangers, as he doesn't seem to have much of a chance of playing for them at this point. If he's called up, he'll probably get claimed off re-entry waivers.

I guess the point I'm making is that Staal wasn't just handed a spot on the Rangers. Sure it may have been easier for him to get in there, but only because the Rangers made space for him

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Old
10-30-2007, 12:35 AM
  #73
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You guys are comparing Bourdon with Staal?

First off Luc is mentioned in the same sentence as Paul Coffey. What has Staal ever done to be talked about in the same breath as an elite defenseman like Coffey?

Seriously though I would take Marc Staal in a heartbeat.

Luc Bourdon has yet to show he is a lock for an NHL career let alone a solid one. Hopefully 2-3 years in the AHL will be enough for Luc to be able to take a regular shift at the NHL level.

This is a serious debate?

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10-30-2007, 12:41 AM
  #74
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For the record...

Lukas Krajicek is an emerging top 4 defenseman that is starting to put it all together. Amazing skater and stickhandler that makes good reads and is starting to add a physical element to his game. Krajicek could realistically pass Kevin Bieksa on the depth chart if he keeps playing like he has since the 2nd round of the playoffs last season.

Luc Bourdon will never be as good a defenseman as Lukas Krajicek. Ever.

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Old
10-30-2007, 12:44 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Rangers' GF: 16

Canucks' GF: 32

Does this mean that the Canucks offence is 2x as good as the Ranger's? No, it's just a small sample size.
I am not trying to argue rangers defense > canuck's or vise versa. I was just responding to another poster's claim that the Canuck's blueline was substantially better, because there isn't a defensive corps in the league that's played substantially better than the ranger's blueliners since las February.

And again, that's not say their arn't better or more talented defensive corps out there, there are, but but the Ranger's belong in the conversation.

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