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trade I want to see

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01-13-2004, 06:18 PM
  #1
sluggo*
 
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trade I want to see

I've seen some talk in the Oilers forum about both Ryan Smyth and Jason Smith being delt this year for prospects and picks, so they could hopefully/probably get them without giving up roster players. If both (or either) of these players is avaible the Leafs should jump on them, both fit what the Leafs need. Ryan Smyth is that younger foward who can produce and help the Leafs out when/if injuries strike in the playoffs. Jason Smith (while not a #1 D-man) is a solid #3 who plays a very physical game (clear the net etc...), and could easly step onto the Leafs #1 or #2 pairing. If they cuold get both without giving up any roster players I think their lines would look something like this.

Roberts-Sundin-Mogilny - As we've seen in the past, this line can produce as much as any other top line in the league.

Tucker-Nieuwendyk-Nolan - A good tweeiner liner. Tucker and Nolan can both score and play a checking role. Nieuwendyk is a good set up man, can put some pucks in the net, a good two-way player and great on the draw.

Smyth-Antropov-Ponik/Stajan - Another tweeiner line. Depending on what you need, either put Stajan or Ponik on the RW. Both Smyth and Antropov can both score, and play phyiscally. If you want more speed you put Stajan in, if you want more physical play (say against the Flyers?) you put Ponik in. Druken could also fit in on this line well.

Fitzgerald/Johsson-Reichel-Domi - A pure checking line, plan and simple.

McCabe-Smith - I'd rather put McCabe with a more solid defensive D-man. Being paired with someone like Smith would allow McCabe to take a couple more chances and join the rush more often, and those two would be a tough phyiscal defensive pair.

Klee-Kaberle - Basically the same idea as pairing #1. Klee being the more stable, stay-at-home guy and Kaberle being the offensive player in the pairing.

Any combo of - Marchment/Pilar/Berg/Jackman/Hedin, depending on whos healthy and what the Leafs need in any given game.

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01-13-2004, 06:28 PM
  #2
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A trade that would involve Smyth and Smith would cost us Steen, plus...

No thanks.

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01-13-2004, 06:31 PM
  #3
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Ya a deal that would improve both their offense and D, and really improving their chances at a cup is a bad idea.

Really, do you think they are going to find a magic trade where they only give up Renberg or Reichel and really improve their team?

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01-13-2004, 06:39 PM
  #4
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How about they don't give up their top prospect?

How about they deal picks and pluck players off non playoff teams?

Adding on Smyth and Smith doesn't guarentee us anything... and take into consideration that Steen's 20 and one of the top 2 prospects in the system... it's too much of a risk.

The current team, the #1 overall team in the NHL is doing pretty well... no need to blow the future up for a guy like Ryan Smyth who's really not all that necessary.

A player like Jason Smith could be had for much less then Steen.

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01-13-2004, 06:47 PM
  #5
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How about they don't give up their top prospect?
Colaiacovo is the only prospect I wouldn't give up in that deal, keeping their top prospect.

Quote:
How about they deal picks and pluck players off non playoff teams?
The Leafs did that last year with guys like Wesley and didn't get that job done.

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Adding on Smyth and Smith doesn't guarentee us anything... and take into consideration that Steen's 20 and one of the top 2 prospects in the system... it's too much of a risk.
Steens also not on the team. And NO deal will EVER guarentee the team anything (theres no guarentee Steen will ever play more then 20 games in the NHL), but Smyth and Smith does make their chances much better. Plus they can replace Steen, its not like hes Kovalchuk or Nash. The Leafs won't get a chance this good at the cup again for a while, they need to do what they have too in order to give themselves the best possible chance at winning.

Quote:
The current team, the #1 overall team in the NHL is doing pretty well... no need to blow the future up for a guy like Ryan Smyth who's really not all that necessary.
In 6 games with the Sens, Flyers and Devils they have a 1-3-2 record. Not what to you want to see against the 3 teams the Leafs will have to get through in order to win the cup, and thats not including the finals. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be saying "if only the Leafs hadn't been hit by injuries again they could have made it to the finals, a guy like Smyth is insurence against their older players getting hurt. Leaf fans needs to stop thinking they can have their cake and eat it too - if you want a cup you have to give up part of your future. The future, while better then its been in the past, isn't looking like a long parade of cups. NOW is the time to win for the Leafs and they need to do what they have to do to win. You can't steal second with your foot on first.


Last edited by sluggo*: 01-13-2004 at 06:51 PM.
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01-13-2004, 06:50 PM
  #6
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I've read your **** before... I'm already done with this thread.

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01-13-2004, 06:53 PM
  #7
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go pierre hedin - It seems like you just don't want to see the Leafs win. I'm sure you'd be happy if they did, but you're completely unwilling to see them do what they have to in order to win.

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01-13-2004, 06:54 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
go pierre hedin - It seems like you just don't want to see the Leafs win. I'm sure you'd be happy if they did, but you're completely unwilling to see them do what they have to in order to win.
r u trying to slowly drive go peirre hedin insane man

settle down now ya here

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01-13-2004, 07:04 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
I've seen some talk in the Oilers forum about both Ryan Smyth and Jason Smith being delt this year for prospects and picks, so they could hopefully/probably get them without giving up roster players.
Cmon now. Even you know that you won't get those two players for so little. Yes if it was possible then the Leafs should jump on it but it will never happen regardless of whatever you may have heard in a forum.

Smith I could see since he's getting older, approaching free agency and seems to have been mostly replaced by Staios. But Smyth is worth much more than that.

Look at the deals for Niinimaa and Carter last season, at the time most people thought the Oilers got the shaft and yet they still got Dvorak, Isbister, Torres, and Pisa for them.

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01-13-2004, 07:58 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by loveshack2
Cmon now. Even you know that you won't get those two players for so little. Yes if it was possible then the Leafs should jump on it but it will never happen regardless of whatever you may have heard in a forum.

Smith I could see since he's getting older, approaching free agency and seems to have been mostly replaced by Staios. But Smyth is worth much more than that.
I think a combo of Steen, one of the "top 4" defensive prospects (not Colaiacovo) and a pick or two could get that deal done.

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01-13-2004, 08:04 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by sluggo
I think a combo of Steen, one of the "top 4" defensive prospects (not Colaiacovo) and a pick or two could get that deal done.
Just stop typing.

Go sleep... you need some rest.

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01-13-2004, 08:12 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
Just stop typing.

Go sleep... you need some rest.
Dude, use your head. When they brought in Isbister, Dvorak, Torres and Cross (27,27,20,32) they weren't thinking rebuilding, they were dumping some salary and trying to get players who could replace the ones they were giving up at that time. But if they are willing to trade Smyth and Smith (27,30 and their Captain) they are giving up on this season and rebuilding. As you said Smith alone could be had for a lot less then Steen (probably a couple later round picks), you add in a top offensive prospect and middle defensive prospect and yes, you could get both of them.

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01-13-2004, 08:16 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Dude, use your head. When they brought in Isbister, Dvorak, Torres and Cross (27,27,20,32) they weren't thinking rebuilding, they were dumping some salary and trying to get players who could replace the ones they were giving up at that time. But if they are willing to trade Smyth and Smith (27,30 and their Captain) they are giving up on this season and rebuilding. As you said Smith alone could be had for a lot less then Steen (probably a couple later round picks), you add in a top offensive prospect and middle defensive prospect and yes, you could get both of them.
Take your own advice.

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01-13-2004, 08:28 PM
  #14
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go pierre hedin - Let me know when 1) You want to see the Leafs win the cup and 2) you understand/learn that the Leafs future isn't excatly looking like that of the Thrashers or the Panthers and isn't something that needs be guarded at all costs.

The bottom line is that for the Leafs to win a cup part of the future will be the cost - picks and/or prospects. This idea that they can get the players they need without giving up anything is stupid. Look at the Flyers, they added a very good, young center at the cost of a couple draft picks and a good defensive prospect, those are the types of deals the Leafs need to make if they are going to win. If all you want to see them give up a 5th round pick then all they are going to get are players like Cairns.

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01-13-2004, 08:44 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
go pierre hedin - Let me know when 1) You want to see the Leafs win the cup and 2) you understand/learn that the Leafs future isn't excatly looking like that of the Thrashers or the Panthers and isn't something that needs be guarded at all costs.

The bottom line is that for the Leafs to win a cup part of the future will be the cost - picks and/or prospects. This idea that they can get the players they need without giving up anything is stupid. Look at the Flyers, they added a very good, young center at the cost of a couple draft picks and a good defensive prospect, those are the types of deals the Leafs need to make if they are going to win. If all you want to see them give up a 5th round pick then all they are going to get are players like Cairns.
a) The Leafs are winning games.
b) Philadelphia hasn't won the cup making the deals they have made.

The addition of Smyth and Smith doesn't guarentee anything... that's all I'm saying. And if you're giving up Steen (the closest thing we've seen to a "sure thing" prospect since Wendel Clark) is too risky.

And I'm all for making moves to compete in the playoffs... but not when it's going to kill you in 5 years... when Steen's a great two-way forward and a leader on the Edmonton Oilers, both on and off the ice.

What if you move Steen for Smyth (hypothetically)... and Smyth has 4 bad games... the Maple Leafs are eliminated in the first round... and you've shipped off your top offensive prospect for 4 games of Ryan Smyth... because Ed Belfour, Joe Nieuwendyk, Gary Roberts, Tom Fitzgerald, Mikael Renberg (back to Sweden), Robert Reichel, Bryan Marchment, and Tie Domi will all be gone if there's a lockout.

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01-13-2004, 08:57 PM
  #16
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a) The Leafs are winning games.
As I told you before, they are 1-3-2 this year against the teams they need to beat to even get to the finals. Against the teams they need to measure themselves to, they aren't winning.

Quote:
b) Philadelphia hasn't won the cup making the deals they have made.
No, but getting Comrie gets them a lot close then they were with Woywitka.

Quote:
The addition of Smyth and Smith doesn't guarentee anything... that's all I'm saying. And if you're giving up Steen (the closest thing we've seen to a "sure thing" prospect since Wendel Clark) is too risky.
You are NEVER going to get a guarentee. NEVER, EVER. So should the Leafs just stop making trading altogether? Since no trade will ever guarentee them a cup whats the point? Getting Smyth and Smith gives much better chances, and yes Steen is a very good prospect, but its not like he's a Kovalchuk or Heatly.

Quote:
And I'm all for making moves to compete in the playoffs... but not when it's going to kill you in 5 years... when Steen's a great two-way forward and a leader on the Edmonton Oilers, both on and off the ice.
You need to get a more realistic idea of the Leafs future, this is the best chance they will have at a cup for a while, and they don't have that future franchise guy int heir sytem (and no, Steen is NOT that player) and unless they get extremelly lucky and steal another one they are going to have to draft him, which pretty much means finishing at the bottom of the league. Moving Steen isn't going to kill some amazing future the Leafs have to look foward to in 5 years.

Quote:
What if you move Steen for Smyth (hypothetically)... and Smyth has 4 bad games... the Maple Leafs are eliminated in the first round... and you've shipped off your top offensive prospect for 4 games of Ryan Smyth... because Ed Belfour, Joe Nieuwendyk, Gary Roberts, Tom Fitzgerald, Mikael Renberg (back to Sweden), Robert Reichel, Bryan Marchment, and Tie Domi will all be gone if there's a lockout
You're right, all those players will be gone after this year, and Sundin and Nolan won't be in their primes after the lock out. So the Leafs have two options. 1) Go for it now, pull out all the stops and do what they have to in order to win a cup (including bringing into two players like Smyth and Smith) so they at least going into the downtime thats coming after breaking their 36 year drought or 2) trade off all those players to contending team's and build for the future. Floating inbetween won't get them anything but 2nd round exit and 28th-30th overall pick (probably two). At the start of the season I'd rather have seen them rebuild, but they won't and given there they are right now they should be going after option 1.

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01-14-2004, 03:41 AM
  #17
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One thing I have to hand to sluggo.

He is one relentless dude.

He is like the seagulls in Finding Nemo, "mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine."

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01-14-2004, 05:04 AM
  #18
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I would like to get Smyth and Smith, but I would'nt trade lets say Colaiacovo, Steen and a 1st rounder. But I would trade lets say Steen, Bell, 2nd and 3rd rounder for him. Sluggo has a point that plug-in players won't do the trick here and its either we go for it this year or rebuild.

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01-14-2004, 05:05 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by wasting time
One thing I have to hand to sluggo.

He is one relentless dude.

He is like the seagulls in Finding Nemo, "mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine."
Dude, didn't your hand get tired typing that ("mine.") over and over and over again? BTW -- the seagulls gave me the biggest laugh in that movie (fell out of my chair laughing while watching the DVD -- but I digress).

I have too agree with wasting time though. I may not necessarily agree with all of what sluggo says (especially about Kaberle), but he is relentless as well as one of the most knowledgeable Maple Leafs posters on this forum.

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01-14-2004, 05:29 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
A trade that would involve Smyth and Smith would cost us Steen, plus...

No thanks.
Is there anyone that you would ever be willing to part with?

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01-14-2004, 06:55 AM
  #21
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I think it would be a good deal for the leafs to get a player like Smyth and Smith.
It fills two things Toronto needs Speed on the forward lines and a talented LW. Adding Smith would give the leafs a true warrior who does what ever it takes to win and is a rock on defense. It would suck for the leafs to lose a player like Steen but ya gotta give something to get something. And just picture these lines
1: Roberts, Sundin, Mogilny
2: Smyth, Newey, Nolan
3: Tucker, Antropov, Renberg
4: Fitzgerald, Reichel, Stajan/Domi
---------------------------------
Defense:
McCabe/ Kaberle
Klee/Berg/Smith
Smith/Berg/Marchmant/Pilar.
---------------------------------
Goal:
Belfour
Kidd/ Brent Johnson * I could only wish *

I like Steens potential as much as anyone and I think he will be a good player one day maybe even a star. But teams that want to win have to make moves that improve there teams at that point and time and in order for Toronto to become one of the elite and if a deal like this was in place I would give up Steen in a heart beat. And as most of you know I am not one for giving up on the youth but we could still hold onto Ryan Smyth for a few years and Smith so it's not like we would be useing Steen and who ever else would be included in the deal to get a rent a player.

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01-14-2004, 06:58 AM
  #22
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BTW, sluggo, I'm just having fun with you...no offense

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01-14-2004, 08:48 AM
  #23
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Bill Watters was speculating on Leafs Lunch today about the Canes trading away a lot of their players if they miss the playoffs and a Bob Boughter/Jeff O'Neill package would be just as good as a Smyth and Smith one.

Quote:
Is there anyone that you would ever be willing to part with?
Hes only willing to part with players who aren't important to the team as it stands right now, who aren't going to be good players in the future, and later round draft picks. That really opens it up to some good possible trades doesn't it?

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01-14-2004, 02:06 PM
  #24
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Quote:
1: Roberts, Sundin, Mogilny
2: Smyth, Newey, Nolan
3: Tucker, Antropov, Renberg
4: Fitzgerald, Reichel, Stajan/Domi
---------------------------------
Defense:
McCabe/ Kaberle
Klee/Berg/Smith
Smith/Berg/Marchmant/Pilar.
---------------------------------
Goal:
Belfour
Kidd
I'm not sure if Quinn would use that configuration (I'm not saying its bad, I think the two big scoring lines), he might switch Smyth and Tucker to spread out the scoring, but even with the lines you put up there if you switch Renberg for Ponik that makes that 3rd line a very hard hitting line that could really take a toll on teams like the Flyers. I'd also prefer to see Smith with McCabe, giving McCabe a more solid defensive partner allowing him some more freedom on the offensive side of things.

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01-14-2004, 02:09 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by sluggo
go pierre hedin - Let me know when 1) You want to see the Leafs win the cup and 2) you understand/learn that the Leafs future isn't excatly looking like that of the Thrashers or the Panthers and isn't something that needs be guarded at all costs.

The bottom line is that for the Leafs to win a cup part of the future will be the cost - picks and/or prospects. This idea that they can get the players they need without giving up anything is stupid. Look at the Flyers, they added a very good, young center at the cost of a couple draft picks and a good defensive prospect, those are the types of deals the Leafs need to make if they are going to win. If all you want to see them give up a 5th round pick then all they are going to get are players like Cairns.
If you think we could get Jason Smith and Ryan Smyth for, say, Steen and a 1st rounder, I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you.

Stop making yourself sound like a total idiot.

 
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