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01-14-2004, 02:22 PM
  #26
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If you think we could get Jason Smith and Ryan Smyth for, say, Steen and a 1st rounder
Where did I say that? I think Steen and their 1st round pick would, in likelyhood, have to be part of the deal, but I'm sure someone like Bell or Kondratiev as well as another draft pick would have to be included. Maybe a Tellqvist, the Oilers fans just did a poll and a lot of them think they need a young goalie.

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01-14-2004, 09:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sluggo
Hes only willing to part with players who aren't important to the team as it stands right now, who aren't going to be good players in the future, and later round draft picks. That really opens it up to some good possible trades doesn't it?
Actually you misunderstood that completely....Some of us that are logical and rational when it comes to trades realize that ..

A) Leafs biggest need is on Defense and so Ryan Smyth does not fill that role and therefore IF and I say IF you have to part with Steen it will be in a package that brings what we need MORE...

B) The actual fact is that ....you are the one that has a VERY UNREALISTIC understanding of players values and are the one that refuses to part with roster players and always offer up Leafs prospects and picks and think you can get anyone you want..

C) All your situations always seem like you live in a Bubble and that there are never any outside things to consider ... If Ryan Smyth a young 27 year old power forward making under 3.5 mil and represented Team Canada will not come cheap and if THEY go on the market TORONTO simply does not have the Assets to acquire them considering they will have to put a Better package than all the other teams... You simply cant' say I offer Steen and 1st and prospect and pick and REALISTICALLY think that will be the Best offer... Many other teams would put their hat in the ring if they became available and you will have admit unless you don't even believe your own post that other teams have more depth and younger players than Toronto does and could offer a better package to get those players because teams like Detroit and Ottawa , Philly and NJ are also going for a Cup, and could use Smyth and Smith as well..

For example ..Ottawa could want Jason Smith veteran presence and along with Ryan Smyth offer a package and of inexpensive young players like say Chris Phillips, Peter Schaefer ( or A. Vermette, P. Schastlivy or other young ROSTER player, along with young goalie prospect Ray Emery and picks) that would make your Leafs offer look like chop liver ...so either ante up or offer better players or watch as these players will go to other teams... Just an example of my point but a trade like that certainly strengthens Ottawa even though they loose Roster players, but still have a better chance at the Cup..

D) You would think over anxious fans like your self would have learned from last year that when Toronto traded a significant amount for Nolan in a top Prospect Boyes and great Character kid in McCauley and a first in a real strong draft ...that it does not guarantee anything and the Leafs where easily eliminated by a better team in Philly... Well news for you .... If Leafs made a trade like the one you are suggesting here that the Leafs would still be underdogs IMO when it came to being matched up against NJ, Philly, Ottawa in the East and Detroit, Colorado and maybe even Vancouver in the West... So even if you make the trade your odds are still just 1 in 7 against the strong teams and even worse as the last few years have shown that Anaheim and Carolina could ride a hot Goalie and throw in Dallas and a few others and THERE IS NO GUARANTEE.... NO matter what Toronto does..

So what we are saying is that TORONTO is not in a position to throw caution to the wind and sacrifice all the Future and that Steen and Colaiacovo and Stajan, should not be sacrificed unless the players coming back are just too good to turn down or in my opinion fill a REAL NEED.... Toronto should wait till the deadline and they go looking for SALARY dump bargains at Kmart prices from teams unloading Salary ... They could add a Glen Wesley and another Steady dman like say Aaron Miller, Alexi Zhitnik once teams are eliminated from playoff contention and the cost would be less and still not sacrifice the Future.... Glen Wesley and Jason Smith may perform the same role both over 30 and UFA in the near future... but the cost of the first would be significantly less..

Motto being shop SMARTER not HARDER....

I know you dream about all these stud players that need to be brought in to replace the aging injury prone players like Jeff O'Neill or Ryan Smyth but those players in their prime do not come Cheap and OTHER teams will want them as well....

I think and so do others that I would sooner keep the kids add a couple of veteran Dman at the deadline (unless a Stud Dman becomes Available) and hope for the best... If Leafs get lucky and the Injury bug does not rip them apart then they have as good a chance as any of winning the Cup ....Same odds 1 in 16 once the playoffs begin and if they don't win .... MY Maple Leafs will be a lot better than yours after this year when I can proudly watch the Steens and Colaiacovo, Stajan's and Jeremy Williams and say that Leafs have finally turned the corner and now are focussing on Developing their own and not just always living in the now....

The best analogy that I can give you is ....the Stanley Cup is just like a lottery and takes a lot of Luck to win.... You are basically saying when the Lotto pot reaches 20 million you go out and spend all you money you have including savings and buy LOTS of tickets, while I go out and buy some but not that I can not pay my bills in the future .... Sure you will have more chances than I will because of more tickets but I could play safe and still win......but the mostly likely case would be that we neither win, since sometimes millions of people buy tickets and no one wins....

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TOMORROW ?????

That is no different in my opinion as you going out and sacrificing Leafs future for a must win this year, saying that they are replaceable so who cares... Well people that can balance both the present with the future are more successful than your all out reckless approach..

That is what we are saying not as you suggest only "players who aren't important to the team as it stands right now, who aren't going to be good players in the future" because that is the farthest from the truth and you missed the point and boat COMPLETELY.....


Last edited by Mess: 01-14-2004 at 09:25 PM.
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01-14-2004, 09:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by wasting time
One thing I have to hand to sluggo.

He is one relentless dude.

He is like the seagulls in Finding Nemo, "mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine."

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01-15-2004, 05:44 AM
  #29
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A) Leafs biggest need is on Defense and so Ryan Smyth does not fill that role and therefore IF and I say IF you have to part with Steen it will be in a package that brings what we need MORE...
And Jason Smith would address that defensive need. But we've also seen this year that the Leafs top players can be and are injury prone, if they get to the third round with a roster that looks like the team that faced the Sens they aren't going tot he finals. A young foward like Smyth (who has some speed and likes to the stand infront of the net, something the Leafs need) is insurence against that happening. If they have a player like him on the roster and Mogilny and Nolan get hurt in the playoffs that loss won't be be as big as if they didn't have him.

Quote:
B) The actual fact is that ....you are the one that has a VERY UNREALISTIC understanding of players values and are the one that refuses to part with roster players and always offer up Leafs prospects and picks and think you can get anyone you want..
Well, when I've talked about this kind of deal int he Oilers forum some (granted not all) of the people would take a package including Steen, Tellqvist and a first rounder for those players, so no its not very unrealistic. Oi'll say! - "I'd be on that like Oprah on a twinkie if the Oil dropped any further out of the playoff race. Maybe even right now" (that package was Steen, Tellqvist, Bell/White and a first rounder). So teh Leafs making a trade like that is realistic.

Quote:
C) All your situations always seem like you live in a Bubble and that there are never any outside things to consider ... If Ryan Smyth a young 27 year old power forward making under 3.5 mil and represented Team Canada will not come cheap and if THEY go on the market TORONTO simply does not have the Assets to acquire them considering they will have to put a Better package than all the other teams... You simply cant' say I offer Steen and 1st and prospect and pick and REALISTICALLY think that will be the Best offer... Many other teams would put their hat in the ring if they became available and you will have admit unless you don't even believe your own post that other teams have more depth and younger players than Toronto does and could offer a better package to get those players because teams like Detroit and Ottawa , Philly and NJ are also going for a Cup, and could use Smyth and Smith as well..
They might not be able to offer the Oilers what they want, but they need some good offensive players (steen) and a goalie (tellqvist), and they need young players since they aren't going for it now. YOu start with those two, add in a pick, a defensive prospect and you have a package that, at least the Oiler fans like. WILL they take it, maybe. But because its just a maybe I guess theres no point in making a trade with anyone right? I mean why would a team bother talking about a trade unless they knew before the talks that the trade would happen.

Quote:
For example ..Ottawa could want Jason Smith veteran presence and along with Ryan Smyth offer a package and of inexpensive young players like say Chris Phillips, Peter Schaefer ( or A. Vermette, P. Schastlivy or other young ROSTER player, along with young goalie prospect Ray Emery and picks) that would make your Leafs offer look like chop liver
Ya, better not even try. Forget that the Sens might not be interested, forget that the Oilers may just like the Leafs package better - forget anything else that could happen. Because another teams offer MIGHT be better the Leafs are better of not even trying. Maybe they should focus on getting Carins instead.

D) You would think over anxious fans like your self would have learned from last year that when Toronto traded a significant amount for Nolan in a top Prospect Boyes and great Character kid in McCauley and a first in a real strong draft ...that it does not guarantee anything

YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO GET A GUARANTEE. So if you're waiting for a guarantee before making a cup run then you are never going to do it. That is the STUPIDEST argument someone can make. Getting those two players greatly improves their chances at a cup and is the type of deal the NEED to go after.


Quote:
So what we are saying is that TORONTO is not in a position to throw caution to the wind and sacrifice all the Future
Yes they are. The Leafs future is not having another chance at a cup for a long while, so they are a position to do whatever it takes to win now. Like I said before, the only reason I can see for any fan to want to see the Leafs "float" this is that they don't want to see the Leafs win the cup.

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Toronto should wait till the deadline and they go looking for SALARY dump bargains at Kmart prices from teams unloading Salary ... They could add a Glen Wesley and another Steady dman like say Aaron Miller, Alexi Zhitnik
You call my ideas unrealistic and then say they could get Miller or Zhitnik at "kmart prices". Smith and Smyth are 27/30 years old and will be around for a while. As we saw last year, those "kmart price" players don't stay around, and often aren't the best players out there. And then the Leafs will be matching up against teams that did what they had to and got Smith and Smyth, how much of an advantage would the Sens have with those two players? Plus those "Kmart" prices your talking about are pretty much second round picks and down right? Well the Leafs don't have a 2004 secound round pick. So they might want Miller, but the Wings can offer more, so why both trying? The Canucks have a second rounder for Zhitnik, so again why bother and the Flyers have a 2nd rounder for Wesley - so teams can offer more then the Leafs for all 3 of those players so I guess theres no much point in going after them either is there?

Quote:
I think and so do others that I would sooner keep the kids add a couple of veteran Dman at the deadline (unless a Stud Dman becomes Available) and hope for the best
Then you don't want to see the Leafs win a cup, you'd think it'd be good if they did but thats it. This is their year, after this year they won't get a chance for a while.

Quote:
If Leafs get lucky and the Injury bug does not rip them apart then they have as good a chance as any of winning the Cup
So you rbring in players like Smith and Smyth so if they are unlucky and get hit by injuries it doesn't hurt them as much and their chances are still good. Its not a hard concept to understand.

Quote:
MY Maple Leafs will be a lot better than yours after this year when I can proudly watch the Steens and Colaiacovo, Stajan's and Jeremy Williams and say that Leafs have finally turned the corner and now are focussing on Developing their own and not just always living in the now....
And your team (like mine) won't have a franchise player and will pretty much have to finish at the bottome of the league to get one, meaning reguardless of where they have Steen and Tellqvist or not there is no cup any time soon for either and before they get to one there will be several seasons of finishing at the bottom of the league. After this year the leafs are going to have to "turn that corner" anyway, better to do it AFTER they have a cup.


Quote:
That is what we are saying not as you suggest only "players who aren't important to the team as it stands right now, who aren't going to be good players in the future" because that is the farthest from the truth and you missed the point and boat COMPLETELY.....
If you don't give up anything you don't get anything of value in return.


Last edited by sluggo*: 01-15-2004 at 06:06 AM.
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Old
01-15-2004, 08:25 AM
  #30
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Sluggo

It so difficult to discuss something with you, because you just don't seem to understand and live in your own world and just see things as Black or White...

You have to back up your discussions with facts from Newspapers or GM quotes not just what you would like...

The best example is this thread ...

First you are not a NHL GM and do not have a qualifications to say what a team is looking for or trading and what it would cost...

You make up this Ryan Smyth and Jason Smith trade as "A TRADE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE" and all of a sudden they are Leafs .... and the reason being Leafs have to go for it now and these players would Help...

Don't you understand that this is FICTITIOUS (NOT REAL) ... You made it up..

Show me ...

1) Where it was every written in a Newspaper or actual event that Ryan Smith was on the Market

2) That Toronto is interested in Jason Smith... Toronto had Smith already...Quinn was the coach and HE said he did not fit into the system and had Mike Smith trade him away as a result... What was even stranger is that it was the exact opposite of your argument in that it occurred at the trade deadline and the Leafs got a 2nd and a 4th round picks (Kris Vernarsky & Jon Zion) , yet let us assume that Leafs are going for the Cup each year...Then why trade away a healthy body before a Cup run, and get picks if you are serious about going for it. That trade could have been made at the entry draft after the playoffs just as easy..

3) How do you know what Edmonton would want your not Kevin Lowe, and a smart GM would wait as long as possible until the trade deadline and get the best offer for the players ...IF THEY ARE EVEN AVAILABLE....You say Oilers are rebuilding because they are not currently in a playoff position and therefore should blow up their team... Show me any paper where that has ever been said, other than yourself... YOU SAY Oilers want ....Prospects and Picks ....That doesn't make it true..., thats all you want to give up, because if you give up roster players than you defeat your own point of getting stronger.. so you offer Steen and picks... The most amazing thing is that Ryan Smith is just 27 years old ...Even when teams rebuild they rebuild around players like him, not trade them away for picks...If Toronto was to be blown up and rebuild it wouldn't be the 27 Darcy Tuckers or younger players it would be the old Vets...

If you can't afford a player like Calgary for example and are a small market team and can't afford Jerome Iginla and his 7.5 million salary than yes you can make a good case for having to part with him... There is nothing written that EDMONTON NEEDS to get rid of Ryan Smith , for financial reasons NOTHING...

4) You use other posters on HF to back you up and so you think it is true... That is the most unreasonable argument I have ever heard... You get some Young poster that may be 12 years old on an oilers board to say that they would be all over you offer like "I'd be on that like Oprah on a Twinkie if the Oil dropped any further out of the playoff race". ....That Doesn't MAKE IT POSSIBLE.... That poster has no power,experience, say, qualifications, or anything ...He does not work for the Oilers organization....all us coach potatoes can say anything on Message boards ...but that is FANTACY NOT REALITY... If I say the Leafs should draft Johan Fransson this year because they need a Number 1 dman and GO Pierre Hedin back me up and SAYS YES ... That doesn't make it a TRUE FACT as you are making it out to be... Give me a Source that says Bob Mackenzie or Pierre Maguire or John Fergy Jr says that this is what will happen and I will listen... Quote me a poster on a message board on a fictational situation and I will print it out and wipe my ass with it because that is how much value that has towards your argument...

That's so annoying to have to discuss something that you are using Hockey Futures poster to back up your arguments or statements.. or your trade situations that you made up ... Why not just say that I would like to see Ryan Smith in Blue and White and be done with it.. You can' back anything else up ...Cost, Availability, Want,...its just what Sluggo wants and may not be even close to reality..Fergy Jr probably has NEVER EVER discussed that topic with Kevin Lowe.... So why should we debate it ..its fruitless to even discuss it other than wouldn't it be great if it did happen..

4) Player Values... I think and I am not alone that you have no idea about this subject.... If Ryan Smyth in you example was available I believe the cost for a young player in his prime would be FAR higher than yours.. I don't even usually post names because I have NO IDEA what a NHL GM would want ...but using common sense and years and years of experience that the price would be high, and if Leafs had to part with a couple of younger ROSTER players would you still make the trade??? NO because you would be shooting yourself in the foot... If leafs had to Send Tucker and Stajan and a picks to Edmonton ...then does your Smyth is less likely to get injured theory and Leafs have a better chance at the cup ...STILL WORK??? Answer : NO of course not.. and that is why Fergy has not made trades yet in the fact that his team is doing well and NO need to tear players off the roster unless it fits a NEED or improves your team greatly... THAT IS WHY THESE TRADES ARE NOT HAPPENING IMO .... If Fergy Jr could add Ryan Smyth and give up Steen and 1st .... do you not think he would be all over that???? The reason he isn't picking up the phone and making the offer is ....BECAUSE HE CAN'T ...and the proof being that if he could it would be a no brainier for even posters on here to make that trade since it helps the team NOW, Smyth is still young to grow with and you are trading away two pieces that will not help you this year win the CUP... as much has some of us like Steen, we would part with him for the right player if we had to ..... but I will still go on record as saying that player should be a Stud Dman and not Ryan Smyth......Toronto is already Top 5 in goals for and have been ravished with injuries all year, where 3 of there top six forwards have been out on most occasions.. Now they are missing Mogilny and Nolan and still they are one the Highest scoring teams in the NHL , without them...

5) Your Ryan Smyth is younger so Less injuries are possible theory is also just a theory ...He has missed lots of games over the years due to injury and almost didn't make Team Canada as a result of a broken ankle....Is he Superman all of a sudden???... he can't break an Arm or Leg or get struck in the eye like Nolan did BECAUSE he is younger .... THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME... Every player in the NHL has the SAME CHANCE of getting Hurt ... the older ones may take longer to return but that doesn't mean that the younger ones are bullet proof ...Look at Antropov , now look at 18 year old Nathan Horton who may need season ending Shoulder surgery, what about Kabs, he is one of our youngest Dman and now has hurt both shoulders and is the farthest thing from a physical player....How about Barrett Jackman gone for the year, what about the accident that happened to Berard or even the Danny Heatley situation???

Things can happen on and off the ice so you can't say that you can go get a player and just because he is younger that he will be there when the Mogilny's and Nolan are not... That's a ludicrous argument... That injuries are based on age..

6) On top of that fact, Leafs could stock up all the Forwards they want in your Fictious world and add O'Neill and Smyth for prospects and picks and should Eddie the Eagle get hurt and Leafs have to go with Trevor Kidd in the playoffs I can tell you with 99.99% certainty that they are not going to win the cup... Now you have traded away all the future and still NOTHING... Belfour is older than many of the Leafs, so by your theory he is the most likely to get hurt... then why are you not saying that Leafs need to get a Playoff goalie in case of injuries, and just focussing on getting a forward in case ... By my thinking that is the exact opposite.. The goalie is the most important part of Stanley Cup Success and since you only have two on the team are real hard to replace.. If Nolan or Mogilny get hurt you have lots of other players to take up the slack and Leafs are proving it as they are #1 in the East and are missing those players... Your logic is backwards...

7) Do you even understand what I meant by Kmart shopping ???...by your response it certainly doesn't seem like it .... A player like Smyth in his prime is an expensive acquisition while and team out of the playoffs like in my example Buffalo or LA with all their injuries are far more likely to trade older and UFA players to be with bigger contracts particularly with a new CBA and Possible Salary Cap.. Leafs do not have the long term resources to go out and get Ferrari's they have to go out and buy Ford Mustangs and hope they get them from point A to point B as well... I find it remarkable that you question that or can't understand ....

... Robert Lang is one of the top scores in the NHL this year and because of his big $$$$ and age ...Washington can not give him away as a Salary dump even in light of all the injuries ... If Toronto could pick him up at KMART prices ...wouldn't that be better than selling the Farm and Furture for a Ryan Smyth???? A Lang goal on the scorsheet counts just as much as a Smyth goal last time I checked.

.. and you can't have your cake and eat it too... In one sentance you say Toronto is in trouble in the future with their age and retirement ...which I agree with in part , so you want to get a Ryan Smyth to replace them ...and in the next sentance you want to trade all the future doesn't matter who in order to win the cup THIS YEAR ... You have to pick a side and not bounce back and forth depending on which way the wind blows...Either you believe in going for it now or are concerned about the future ..pick a side and stop flipping around.. Those two things are mutally exclussive...


Last edited by Mess: 01-15-2004 at 01:14 PM.
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01-15-2004, 12:47 PM
  #31
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You make up this Ryan Smyth and Jason Smith trade as "A TRADE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE" and all of a sudden they are Leafs .... and the reason being Leafs have to go for it now and these players would Help...
Don't you understand that this is FICTITIOUS (NOT REAL) ... You made it up..
I never claimed this deal was in the works or anything like that, there is talk in the Oilers forum about both Smith and Smyth being traded this year, which is where I got that from, and if both of those guys are avaible, they are the type of players the Leafs need to go after. And since the leafs havn't made any deals this year hasn't EVERY conversation about a trade just been stuff that people made up?

Quote:
2) That Toronto is interested in Jason Smith... Toronto had Smith already...Quinn was the coach and HE said he did not fit into the system and had Mike Smith trade him away as a result
And right NOW Smith is the type of D-man the Leafs need. Quinn has shown with Team Canada that he'll do whats best for the team and not sit a good player who can get the job done because he like someone else (ie - sitting Cujo). Quinn isn't a teaching coach and couldn't get Smith to play better, the Oilers did that, and hes not turned into the type of hte players the Leafs need. Do you honestly think of Ferguson got him that Quinn would bench him?

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3) How do you know what Edmonton would want your not Kevin Lowe, and a smart GM would wait as long as possible until the trade deadline and get the best offer for the players
I guess that's why Comrie hasn't been traded yet.

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Show me any paper where that has ever been said, other than yourself... YOU SAY Oilers want
Go look in the Oilers forum, see what most of them think about their team. While Lowe isn't there, most fans have a good idea about where their team is and should be going. And as people love to point out with the Toronto media, just because its in a paper doesn't mean its true either, most trades aren't reported before they happen. When is Jagr going to the Rangers? When is Peca coming to the Leafs? When is Domi being traded? Wheren't all those rumors in that papers, well I guess they are all facts too.

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4) You use other posters on HF to back you up and so you think it is true... That is the most unreasonable argument I have ever heard
I never said that means its true, that means its not this loop-sided deal where the Leafs are stealing players from the Oilers. If the fans see a trade for two of their starters and like it, generally it means its a fair deal.

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Give me a Source that says Bob Mackenzie or Pierre Maguire or John Fergy Jr says that this is what will happen and I will listen
I NEVER SAID it will happen, but its a deal thats possible and the TYPE of deal the Leafs need. Just becaues its posted on a forum doesn't mean its a fact. Like I said the Leafs havn't made ANY trades this year so NOnvsersation about a possible trade is fact, and NO trade is a fact until it happens. So if you want FACTS wait until the deals happen until you talk about them.


Why not just say that I would like to see Ryan Smith in Blue and White and be done with it

I'm sorry, what was the name of this thread again? "The deal the Oilers and Leafs are working on" No that wasn't it. What was it agan...... Oh ya "A RADE I WANT TO SEE HAPPEN" - I ALREADY DID SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT YOU IDIOT, ITS THE NAME OF THE THREAD. How much more do you want it spelled out for you?

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So why should we debate it ..its fruitless to even discuss it other than wouldn't it be great if it did happen..
Thats what talk about EVERY trade is before it happens, so just stop looking at threads that deal with possible trades and trades people want to see happen then. If you don't want to deal with stuff that might now happen why would you even waist your time reading a thread called Trade I want to se happen?

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4) Player Values... I think and I am not alone that you have no idea about this subject.... If Ryan Smyth in you example was available I believe the cost for a young player in his prime would be FAR higher than yours
As I said, the Oiler fans seem to think it would be a fair trade value wise, and I'm not the only one whos used other teams fans as a tested for trade value. (thats your second #4 by the way)

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If Fergy Jr could add Ryan Smyth and give up Steen and 1st
Thats what YOU'VE said not me. I said it would take a package more like - Steen, Tellqvist, Bell/White and a first rounder.

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Toronto is already Top 5 in goals for and have been ravished with injuries all year
And yet since Nolan has gone down so has their production. they scored something like 3 goals in 3 games, and 4 of their last 6 have come from defensemen. The core of the Leafs fowards are old and injury prone, if they are serious about a cup run, they need to add another top 6 foward.



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5) Your Ryan Smyth is younger so Less injuries are possible theory is also just a theory ...He has missed lots of games over the years due to injury
He had 2 60 game seasons, which followed a 70 and two 80 game seasons. He has also played all the games the oilers have played this year. He doesn't have a bad hip or back etc.... that a lot of the current Leaf fowards do. And yes younger players can and do get hurt, but when you have a player's with CRONIC (see that means the injuries happen a lot) hip, back, knee and neck injuries, those players are MORE likely to get hurt then ones who could hurt because their body's are prone to injuries. Sure ANY player could get a concussion, but theres a bigger chancce Linrdros could get one.


Quote:
Now you have traded away all the future and still NOTHING... Belfour is older than many of the Leafs, so by your theory he is the most likely to get hurt
Belfour doesn't have the cronic injury problems that Mogilny, Nolan, Nieuwendyk etc... have, and the goalies don't face the same phyiscal contact, and if you really can't understand that simple logic you need to watch a lot more hockey. And anyone who has a brain in their head KNOWS the leafs will have to go through a rebuilding period ANYWAY, reguardless of whether they have Steen in the system or not, and hes not a Kovalchuk type player who can't be replaced.

And lets just say the Leafs go with the future. So ten years from the now the Leafs are in the same postion (only with Steen, Colaiacovo etc...), they are ready for a cup run but need a big trade or two to put them over that hump. But no, we don't want to risk the future so they don't, that group doesn't win a cup. So ten years after that samething happens, and again, and again. Get this through your head - TO IMPROVE TO THE POINT THEY ARE REAL CONTENDERS FOR THE CUP THE LEAFS WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP PART OF THEIR FUTURE.

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... then why are you not saying that Leafs need to get a Playoff goalie in case of injuries, and just focussing on getting a forward in case
Becaues you don't back up every position, but a top 6 is something the Leafs need anyway.

Quote:
If Nolan or Mogilny get hurt you have lots of other players to take up the slack and Leafs are proving it as they are #1 in the East and are missing those players
They've only missed Nolan for 3-4 games (and the offense hasn't been anywhere near as strong for those games). And as I have pointed out over and over again - the Leafs can beat up teamsiket he Caps, Canes and Penguins no problem and get points. But when they have played the other top teams in the East they have a 1-3-2 record (and have only scored 6 goals in 6 games), so its clear that the Leafs need to improve or they won't get out of the East. Its great to beat the Flames 4-1, but if they can't beat the Sens, the Flyers or the Devils they won't go anywhere, and so far this year they havn't shown that they can.

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01-15-2004, 01:16 PM
  #32
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I seem to remember a pretty good stay at home defenseman named Jason Smith who arrived here along with Steve Sullivan and Alyn McCauley in what could have been a brilliant trade.

I also remember that, despite obvious value to the team, both Smith and Sullivan were consistently on Quinn's s**t list and were dumped for next to nothing to Edmonton and Chicago where they have done quite well.

Quinn would never admit his mistake and let Smith back.

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01-15-2004, 02:49 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by wasting time
One thing I have to hand to sluggo.

He is one relentless dude.

He is like the seagulls in Finding Nemo, "mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine. mine."


*wipes tears*

I love that movie

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01-15-2004, 02:52 PM
  #34
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Would you mind pulling the shotgun sluggo out of your head?

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01-15-2004, 05:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Maple_Leafs_Forever
Would you mind pulling the shotgun sluggo out of your head?
He sure lives in his own world I will give him that ....You should try having a conversation with him .... He misunderstands everything and you have to spell it out and still he misses the point...

Never encountered a more frustrating person to have a conversation with...once he makes something up and gets it in his head ...he can't separate Fact from Fiction..

He makes me go like this ......


Last edited by Mess: 01-15-2004 at 05:54 PM.
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01-15-2004, 07:05 PM
  #36
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Yeah, it's almost pathetic.

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01-15-2004, 07:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
Yeah, it's almost pathetic.
Almost?

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01-15-2004, 09:49 PM
  #38
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Florida fond of Gator
By ROBIN BROWNLEE -- Edmonton Sun

Florida Panthers coach and GM Rick Dudley is looking for a big, physical defenceman, and sources close to the team are suggesting that Edmonton Oilers captain Jason Smith might be the guy to fill the bill in Dudley's mind.

While that remains to be seen, given that Smith will miss tonight's game because of a sprained left ankle, Dudley is said to be willing to part with either Kristian Huselius or Niklas Hagman, both forwards, to get what he wants.

Oiler GM Kevin Lowe inquired about Huselius, a left-winger who has just five goals this season but scored 20 goals in 2002-03 and 23 the season before that, in talks with Dudley when Mike Comrie was being shopped around.

Huselius, 26, drafted 47th overall by Florida in 1997, has struggled this season with 5-10-15 in the 41 games he's played, but has touch around the net, decent size at six-foot-one and 190 pounds and is affordable - he will earn $900,000 this season.

Hagman, 24, also a left-winger, is the son of former Oiler Matti Hagman. In his third season with Florida, Hagman plays with grit in his game, but is short on offence. He's scored 23-39-62 in 198 career games, including 5-6-11 this season.

Given the Oilers' need for scoring up front, Huselius is a better bet, assuming Lowe and Dudley choose to talk trade. Word is Dudley is also interested in Eric Brewer, but Smith, who'll earn $2.3 million this season, could be a better fit in the short term.

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01-16-2004, 05:56 AM
  #39
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Sluggo

The above article was taking from yesterdays Edmonton Sun ...While it is still rumours, it has a lot more Fact that Fiction to it...

This article tells me that you are way off base with your Lowe wants prospects and picks..... IF he wants a young inexpensive scoring forward for Jason Smith ....then that nearly makes Ryan Smyth UNTOUCHABLE, or would require even a more offensive/better NHL forward then him for Lowe to make the trade .... If Lowe is willing to trade Dman to get more offense he certainly is not trading Ryan Smyth for prospects and picks to help his lack of offense problem..

You can also break it down and say Leafs have really only 3 NHL forwards that with this requirement...

1) Matt Stajan - who is barely more than a prospect himself and if acquired really can not at 19 be expected to make an impact offensively to help Edmonton.. So let rule him out...
2) Darcy Tucker ... Born Mar 15 1975 .....will be turning 29 in a few months so that is stretching the YOUNG part a little but his goals might help and 1.6 million is about right for the Oilers...
3) Nik Antropov... he fits the price and age requirement, but he comes with the injury bug tag so whether Lowe would take a chance on him in a trade would be any ones guess.... and I doubt that Fergy jr would trade Nik for Jason Smith....He may for Brewer but not Jason

SO that's it ....

That's why we are telling you that you live in a fantasy world ...and that your are so way off when it comes to accessing what a team wants.. and bottom line ...

TORONTO simply does not have the assets to go out and get the players you would like, and this ACTUAL article should prove that to you... and that NON ROSTER prospects and picks are not what EDMONTON is looking for RIGHT NOW...

that situation may change if they are eliminated from playoff contention in a few months than they might chance their position , but now their stance is clear as day. IMO...

Articles like this should stop you dead in your tracks....from needing to convince you further that your trade proposal could happen NOW and look I don't need HF posters for a message board to back up by position on this situation..

Can't wait to see the spin you will put on this story ....but I know its coming because you always believe you are right on everything even if people prove you wrong over and over and over...

Heres that actual link to the article so you don't accuse me of making it up..

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam040113/nhl_edm3-sun.html


Last edited by Mess: 01-16-2004 at 06:00 AM.
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01-16-2004, 05:01 PM
  #40
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This article tells me that you are way off base with your Lowe wants prospects and picks
Ya, and every artical about Comrie said that Lowe would only trade him when he could do it and help the Oilers, which is why they held onto him for so long, and did they get that player to help the Oilers? No, they got picks and prospects. That artical means NOTHING. Like I said, a month ago there were all kinds of articals saying Jagr was about to be traded to the Rangers, or did I sleep through that deal? The Oiler fans have a better idea then you and I do about what their team needs and where they are going (just like we do about the Leafs), and at this point pretty much everyone on that board is looking for rookies and prospects. Does that make it "fact", no but its not a fantasy either.


Quote:
That's why we are telling you that you live in a fantasy world ...and that your are so way off when it comes to accessing what a team wants.. and bottom line ...
If you don't want to "live in a fantasy world" and see or talk about trades that others want to see happen DON'T READ THREADS CALLED "TRADES I WANT TO SEE". The ONLY trades that are fact are ones that have happened, if all you want to talk about is fact, then only talk about trades that have already happened. Hell even your ideas - "They could add a Glen Wesley and another Steady dman like say Aaron Miller, Alexi Zhitnik once teams are eliminated from playoff contention and the cost would be less and still not sacrifice the Future" - ARE FANTASY BASED. Show me an artical that says the Canes, Kings and Sabres are looking to move those players, that Ferguson is looking at them and that they would accept 3rd round+ picks for them.

Quote:
TORONTO simply does not have the assets to go out and get the players you would like, and this ACTUAL article should prove that to you
Your little artical proves nothing dude. Like I said, the same stuff was write about Comrie and look what he went for. Didn't Ferguson contact the Islanders about Peca? What happened to that deal? I mean it was in a paper, doesn't that make it a fact? I also find it funny that you trash the Leaf prospects when it comes to their trade value and whether or not its a fair trade, yet then talk about this great future the leafs have with these players. I mean, if they are going to bring this great future about wouldn't they have to be good players?

And before you go on about me in a "fantasy world" etc... lets look at some of the things I have said in this thread. "If both (or either) of these players is avaible the Leafs should jump on them". "But if they are willing to trade Smyth and Smith". "It would be very good for the Leafs if they could get those two players". See a lot of use of the word "IF". Not a lot of facts are stated with the word IF. So next time you want to try and claim I'm saying something WILL happen with no proof of it make sure thats what I'm doing. If you even bothed to read the first post in this thread you would know that the whole thing was based on opinions of other fans, and I never said anything to the contrary, in fact I said JUST THAT, that based on what some Oiler fans were talking about this kind of deal COULD happen. First your tried to say the Leafs didn't have what it took to get that deal done, I showed you it was possible so rather then say "ya, your right" you started this stupid argument about facts and newspaper articals.

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01-16-2004, 05:41 PM
  #41
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Jesus, give it up.

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