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departure of key players, which harmed the teams severly

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10-29-2007, 09:30 AM
  #1
Badger Bob
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departure of key players, which harmed the teams severly

Some are going to mention Gretzky leaving Edmonton, but the Oilers were still competitive after he departed (ie Cup win in '90).

No doubt Gordie Howe is Mr. Hockey, but the Red Wings lost a lot when Ted Lindsay was held accountable for trying to form a player's association.

To a smaller scale, the Sabres were among the league elite in the mid-70's. Rick Dudley was a role player, but a catalyst, and he was never effectively replaced after jumping to Cincinnati of the WHA. It was believed that the Sabres were still a great team, but then they became mediocre as a result of Scotty Bowman's moves as GM.

It'd be interesting to learn from Habs fans, but the trading of Kirk Muller to the Islanders helped accelerate their decline, which the organization hasn't fully recovered. He was one of the leaders from the '93 team, loved playing in the city. What did it bring them in return? A softie in Turgeon.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...19/ai_16820310

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I'm sitting between Eric Lindros and John LeClair in the Flyers locker room when word comes that the Canadiens have traded captain Kirk Muller, defenseman Mathieu Schneider and center prospect Chris Darby to the Islanders for center Pierre Turgeon and defenseman Vladimir Malakhov in what proved to be the biggest deal before the NHI's trading deadline last Friday.

"No way," LeClair says. "No way would the Canadiens trade Kirk Muller. No way."

"Way," says the teammate who delivers news of the trade.

"I just can't believe it," LeClair rays. "Pierre Turgeon? He would have to score 150 points in Montreal to come close to doing for the Canadiens what Kirk Muller did."
This contributed to them becoming a one line team during the finals days of Jacques Demers with Damphousse-Turgeon-Recchi. They eventually realized the mistake, by bringing Shane Corson back to add grit, but this deal, coupled with the LeClair to Philly trade, damaged the organization for years.

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10-29-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quebec trading Dale Hunter to Washington in `87 for a 1st round pick (Sakic). Getting Sakic payed huge dividends for Quebec/Colorado in the long run, but the first few years after that trade were brutal for Nords fans. Hunter was the teams heart and soul.

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10-29-2007, 01:29 PM
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Habs trading Roy in 1995. They never had a superstar goalie since - except for 1 year wonder Theodore. I've always wondered whether Roy could have taken another (not so great) Habs team to the promised land?

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10-29-2007, 02:53 PM
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This contributed to them becoming a one line team during the finals days of Jacques Demers with Damphousse-Turgeon-Recchi. They eventually realized the mistake, by bringing Shane Corson back to add grit, but this deal, coupled with the LeClair to Philly trade, damaged the organization for years.
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Muller had lost his hands and a step by that point,so it was a good trade for MTL to land Turgeon.He was very productive for 2 seasons, and the '95-'96 Habs really were a fast,young, high scoring, energetic and scrappy team to watch and play against.MTL lacked a suitable D replacement for Desjardins, and a real top notch G, so the Roy trade had a much greater impact of the team's fortunes than losing Muller.

You could make the case that the team began to unravel in 1994, after Carbo was dealt in the off season.Picking up Marc Bureau from Tampa just didn't cut it, and then there were the rumours of Bondra being traded for Racine and Bure but was nixed by the ever emotive Demers.It's a real shame that Savard dealt LeClair away before landing Turgeon, as that combo together could have been something special to watch, and a 2nd line of Damphousse-Koivu could have made the Habs a very scary, spoiler type team to face.


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10-29-2007, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Quebec trading Dale Hunter to Washington in `87 for a 1st round pick (Sakic). Getting Sakic payed huge dividends for Quebec/Colorado in the long run, but the first few years after that trade were brutal for Nords fans. Hunter was the teams heart and soul.
The fact that they Goose Gosselin's play went south after one good season, that they no other potable replacement guy (they had one, but they actually traded him with Hunter) and the departure of Normand Rochefort, killed the Nords much more than Hunter's departure in the end.

In fact, moving Malarchuk might have hurt the Nords more than the loss of Hunter.

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10-29-2007, 06:41 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Maple_Leafs

The serious decline started in July 1979, when Ballard brought back Imlach, a longtime friend, as general manager. With Ballard's support, Imlach moved to dismantle the roster and undermine Sittler's influence, despite many analysts viewing the team as having a promising future.

Sittler was apparently untouchable as he had a no-trade clause in his contract and, through his agent Eagleson, had insisted on $500,000 to waive it. When the Leafs traded Sittler's close friend Lanny McDonald to the moribund Colorado Rockies on December 29, 1979, a member of the Leafs anonymously told the Toronto Star that Leafs management would "do anything to get at Sittler"[3] and was bent on undermining the captain's influence on the team. Angry teammates trashed their dressing room in response, and Sittler temporarily resigned his captaincy. Eagleson called the trade "a classless act."[3]

Sittler himself was gone two years later, when the Leafs traded him to the Philadelphia Flyers. He left as the franchise's all-time leading scorer.

In 1979-80, they finished five games under .500 and only made the playoffs due to the presence of the Quebec Nordiques, a refugee from the WHA, in the Adams Division. For the next 12 years, the Leafs were barely competitive, not posting another winning record until 1992-93. They missed the playoffs six times and only finished above fourth in their division once (in 1990, the only season where they even posted a .500 record)


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10-29-2007, 07:50 PM
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Ron Francis being traded to Pittsburgh pretty much destroyed the Whalers franchise if you hear some Whaler fans tell it. In hindsight, I'm inclined to believe them.

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10-29-2007, 07:51 PM
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10-29-2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider View Post
Muller had lost his hands and a step by that point,so it was a good trade for MTL to land Turgeon.He was very productive for 2 seasons, and the '95-'96 Habs really were a fast,young, high scoring, energetic and scrappy team to watch and play against.
We can agree to disagree on this one. Turgeon was undeniably skilled, and put points on the board, but he brought little else to the table in terms of intangibles - particularly heart, winning and leadership. Having him accept the torch, at the closing of the Forum, was intended to literally light a fire under him. He didn't belong among those legends.

If Muller had lost that much, there were teams willing to accept what he was still able to contribute.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players.../00003839.html

He remained in the NHL for 8 more years after leaving Montreal.

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10-30-2007, 12:07 AM
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We can agree to disagree on this one. Turgeon was undeniably skilled, and put points on the board, but he brought little else to the table in terms of intangibles - particularly heart, winning and leadership. Having him accept the torch, at the closing of the Forum, was intended to literally light a fire under him. He didn't belong among those legends.

If Muller had lost that much, there were teams willing to accept what he was still able to contribute.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players.../00003839.html

He remained in the NHL for 8 more years after leaving Montreal.
At that point in their careers, Turgeon was the better player.

The trade that ended up hurting the Habs (among many others) was the Turgeon (+ Conroy and I believe Fitzpatrick) for Corson (+Murray Baron?).

They won the Turgeon for Muller deal.

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10-30-2007, 07:29 AM
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Ken Dryden leaving the Habs after the 1979 season. The Habs were still a really good team, but mediocre goaltending cost them a chance to defend their cup. People lambaste Grundman for the Wickenheiser pick and the Langway trade, but IMO the biggest diservice he did to the Habs was not adequately replacing Dryden or giving Dryden a reason to stay a couple of more years. Apparantly the word is, Dryden might have stayed if the Habs had ponied up more cash.


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10-30-2007, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
We can agree to disagree on this one. Turgeon was undeniably skilled, and put points on the board, but he brought little else to the table in terms of intangibles - particularly heart, winning and leadership. Having him accept the torch, at the closing of the Forum, was intended to literally light a fire under him. He didn't belong among those legends.

If Muller had lost that much, there were teams willing to accept what he was still able to contribute.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players.../00003839.html

He remained in the NHL for 8 more years after leaving Montreal.
There was no doubt he was still able to contribute, but he just wasn't the go to offensive guy that he was previously in Montreal, and Serge Savard felt he needed that guy to complement Damphousse and Recchi. No doubt the Habs missed his heart and soul (Muller cried when told he was being traded), but I think the Roy trade, and trading Desjardins (more so than Leclair) hurt the franchise more.

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10-30-2007, 07:53 AM
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There was no doubt he was still able to contribute, but he just wasn't the go to offensive guy that he was previously in Montreal, and Serge Savard felt he needed that guy to complement Damphousse and Recchi. No doubt the Habs missed his heart and soul (Muller cried when told he was being traded), but I think the Roy trade, and trading Desjardins (more so than Leclair) hurt the franchise more.
That's exactly it. The Muller trade might have hurt, but, trading their #1 d-man and arguably the greatest goalie ever are what killed the team.

In the no duh catagory, Buffalo went from 2nd in the division to last when Hasek left, but, they still posted a .500 record.

Me being me, I have to point out the drop in the Canucks from 96-97 to 97-98, they went from a middle of the road team to 3rd worst with Linden losing power and eventually leaving and Messier taking power.

One that I wonder about, the Calgary Flames from 90-91 to 91-92. Now, we all know the effects of the midseason trade (Giving up Gilmour, Macoun, Nattress and Wamsley for Leeman, Petit, Berube, Reese and Godynyuk. Wow, Macoun is probably the 2nd best player in the deal...) but that trade was made to try and breathe some life into a struggling team. They did trade Mark Hunter and Dana Murzyn at the '91 deadline and struggled in the post season that year (7 game upset in the 1st round) Could that have been it? Crisp had already left as coach. Any Flames fans know?

Trading Clark and Lefebrve for Sundin was a step back for the Leafs, surprisingly.

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10-30-2007, 09:06 AM
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Montreal trading Rod Langway, Brian Engblom, Doug Jarvis, and Craig Laughlin to Washington in exchange for Rick Green and Ryan Walter definitely set Montreal back defensively for a few seasons.

The next season they still possessed the second best offense in the league behind Edmonton, but gave up 60 more goals and were bounced in the playoffs by Buffalo in 3 straight games.

To Montreal's credit, Chelios, Svoboda, and Kurvers were on the way to rebuild and some goalie named Roy turned out to be okay.

However, can you imagine an 80s defense featuring Chelios, Langway, Engblom, Ludwig, Kurvers, and a still effective Larry Robinson?

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10-30-2007, 09:12 AM
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Montreal trading Rod Langway, Brian Engblom, Doug Jarvis, and Craig Laughlin to Washington in exchange for Rick Green and Ryan Walter definitely set Montreal back defensively for a few seasons.

The next season they still possessed the second best offense in the league behind Edmonton, but gave up 60 more goals and were bounced in the playoffs by Buffalo in 3 straight games.

To Montreal's credit, Chelios, Svoboda, and Kurvers were on the way to rebuild and some goalie named Roy turned out to be okay.

However, can you imagine an 80s defense featuring Chelios, Langway, Engblom, Ludwig, Kurvers, and a still effective Larry Robinson?
Hurt in the early years after the trade, but Engblom didn't last in the NHL much longer and by the mid to late 80's, Green was outplaying Langway.

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10-30-2007, 09:28 AM
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Roy being traded away from Montreal is what killed that team. No team can trade away a franchise player of that caliber, receive little nothing in return and expect to contend

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10-30-2007, 09:32 AM
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Montreal trading Rod Langway, Brian Engblom, Doug Jarvis, and Craig Laughlin to Washington in exchange for Rick Green and Ryan Walter definitely set Montreal back defensively for a few seasons.

The next season they still possessed the second best offense in the league behind Edmonton, but gave up 60 more goals and were bounced in the playoffs by Buffalo in 3 straight games.

To Montreal's credit, Chelios, Svoboda, and Kurvers were on the way to rebuild and some goalie named Roy turned out to be okay.

However, can you imagine an 80s defense featuring Chelios, Langway, Engblom, Ludwig, Kurvers, and a still effective Larry Robinson?
That trade helped Montreal win a cup though. The others won nothing in Washington. Langway wanted out of Montreal at the time because of a contract dispute, Jarvis was being forced out by a similar but yet better player in Carbonneau, Engblom was a defensive defenseman...but I would rather have Rick Green.

Habs got off to a great start in '82. Despite having below average goaltending. That team had good chemistry. Even made Steve Penney look like Ken Dryden for a couple of months

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10-30-2007, 09:33 AM
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Hurt in the early years after the trade, but Engblom didn't last in the NHL much longer and by the mid to late 80's, Green was outplaying Langway.

Injuries derailed both Engblom and Langway later in their careers.

The Caps, however, were able to turn Engblom into Larry Murphy who added much needed skill to a hard working, yet stagnant offensive team.

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10-30-2007, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
At that point in their careers, Turgeon was the better player.

The trade that ended up hurting the Habs (among many others) was the Turgeon (+ Conroy and I believe Fitzpatrick) for Corson (+Murray Baron?).

They won the Turgeon for Muller deal.
Regardless of whether Montreal won the deal, there's no question that the Islanders lost that deal. Bigtime.

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10-30-2007, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Ken Dryden leaving the Habs after the 1979 season. The Habs were still a really good team, but mediocre goaltending cost them a chance to defend their cup. People lambaste Grundman for the Wickenheiser pick and the Langway trade, but IMO the biggest diservice he did to the Habs was not adequately replacing Dryden or giving Dryden a reason to stay a couple of more years. Apparantly the word is, Dryden might have stayed if the Habs had ponied up more cash.
I met Scotty Bowman once (in '01), and there was some Q&A afterwards. If there was another opportunity to speak with him again, it'd be interesting to know his opinion on whether Tony Esposito or Rogie Vachon could've achieved the same success in Mtl. as Dryden. Those two shined on mediocre teams, and might have been able to accomplish more if they'd remained.

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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
There was no doubt he was still able to contribute, but he just wasn't the go to offensive guy that he was previously in Montreal, and Serge Savard felt he needed that guy to complement Damphousse and Recchi. No doubt the Habs missed his heart and soul (Muller cried when told he was being traded), but I think the Roy trade, and trading Desjardins (more so than Leclair) hurt the franchise more.
The reason for mentioning Muller was because it signaled the decline of the franchise. By the time Roy was traded, they were already an average team, which had to have contributed to his frustration. Jacques Demers allowed him to come and go as he pleased. By the time Roy had left, it was Rejean Houle as GM with Mario Tremblay as coach. When Roy heard that those two were placed in those roles, he said that he thought it was a joke. So, that should give some indication as to what the situation was like during that period. It was just destined to fail.

Interesting perspective on LeClair and Desjardins though. LeClair obviously really blossomed in Philly, and not everything he accomplished was simply because of Lindros. LeClair was damn effective for Team USA in the '96 World Cup. One wonders if he would've really gotten much of a chance outside of the checking line, if he'd remained in Mtl.


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One that I wonder about, the Calgary Flames from 90-91 to 91-92. Now, we all know the effects of the midseason trade (Giving up Gilmour, Macoun, Nattress and Wamsley for Leeman, Petit, Berube, Reese and Godynyuk. Wow, Macoun is probably the 2nd best player in the deal...) but that trade was made to try and breathe some life into a struggling team.
Other factors were involved, and Gilmour forced the situation. It will go down as one of the worst all-time trades, and a horrible way for Doug Risebrough to have begun his GM career. Ironically, the Flames were still contenders for another few years after that trade, but the first round tankings hurt badly. They had Nieuwendyk & Reichel at center, Roberts, Fleury and still had MacInnis & Suter with Vernon in net. Then the mass exodus took place, and all of those names ended up elsewhere.

On the subject of Fleury, the Avs gave up a nifty package to acquire him. He was sent with Chris Dingman to Colorado for Wade Belak, Rene Corbet and a choice of either Martin Skoula or Robyn Regher. Regher would've been all that the Avs could've hoped for to replace Adam Foote.

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10-30-2007, 05:09 PM
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To Montreal's credit, Chelios, Svoboda, and Kurvers were on the way to rebuild and some goalie named Roy turned out to be okay.

However, can you imagine an 80s defense featuring Chelios, Langway, Engblom, Ludwig, Kurvers, and a still effective Larry Robinson?
Let's just say I would take Svoboda anyday ahead of Tom Kurvers... Heck.. They even had Jyrki Lumme in the system by then.

What was even more unbeleiveable was that, ultimately, it cost the Devils Andrew McVicar for three years of Kurvers and Scott Niedermayer.

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10-30-2007, 06:19 PM
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This thread needs more Pronger.

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10-31-2007, 09:59 AM
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Definitely the Nordiques trade of Dale Hunter in 1987, while that trade got them Joe Sakic, they where a long time before they got back to respectability.

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10-31-2007, 02:46 PM
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Ken Dryden leaving the Habs after the 1979 season. The Habs were still a really good team, but mediocre goaltending cost them a chance to defend their cup. People lambaste Grundman for the Wickenheiser pick and the Langway trade, but IMO the biggest diservice he did to the Habs was not adequately replacing Dryden or giving Dryden a reason to stay a couple of more years. Apparantly the word is, Dryden might have stayed if the Habs had ponied up more cash.
I was going to mention this one. Went from Cup champion to a cup favorite, but the clutch goaltending wasn't there.

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10-31-2007, 02:48 PM
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This thread needs more Pronger.
Yes Pittsburgh was never the same after Sean left.

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