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Scoring among Defensemen all-time?

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Old
11-01-2007, 11:17 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
Man, thinking about Bourque's record for all-time points by a D makes it seems almost as unbreakable as Gretzky's overall points record.

1579?!

Lidstrom needs another career to catch that.
I think Lidstrom could land 1000 regular season points which is still far away, but I could see Lidstrom actually reach third all-time in playoff points.

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Old
11-01-2007, 11:46 AM
  #27
pnep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Quackenbush, it's all about era. He didn't play in a low scoring era so adjusting won't help him like it would help Shore, or Lidstrom, but, he played in an era where scoring for defensemen was really low. So, to get his numbers up, you might have to do the adjusting based solely on scoring by d-men, which is an insane amount of work that I wouldn't blame you if you never wanted to even try.
SeasonAdj. Games (DEF only)Adj. PTS (DEF only)Adj PTS per 82 Adj. Games (DEF only)
1917-1871528933,13
1918-1966923228,49
1919-20104328422,32
1920-21111335926,43
1921-22110948736,02
1922-2374630333,27
1923-24100349040,05
1924-25152149626,74
1925-26210673628,64
1926-27279491626,87
1927-28276897528,88
1928-29278169820,58
1929-30315486422,47
1930-31336677618,91
1931-32264463919,81
1932-33292774220,80
1933-34312271318,73
1934-35283468419,79
1935-36255765721,07
1936-37269065319,91
1937-38272965019,53
1938-39255158818,90
1939-40244369523,33
1940-41234067623,69
1941-42241568023,09
1942-43189344619,32
1943-44169749824,06
1944-45194555023,19
1945-46209053320,91
1946-47209655321,63
1947-48219559522,23
1948-49233056119,74
1949-50253662220,11
1950-51252265321,23
1951-52240458920,09
1952-53231662922,27
1953-54239772524,80
1954-55230668024,18
1955-56233766923,47
1956-57235164822,60
1957-58231058920,91
1958-59244264121,52
1959-60231061121,69
1960-61243160220,31
1961-62237264022,12
1962-63251463820,81
1963-64242866522,46
1964-65243667122,59
1965-66258068021,61
1966-67253766721,56
1967-685054127320,65
1968-694976139522,99
1969-705002143623,54
1970-716086182824,63
1971-726140194726,00
1972-737008197723,13
1973-746955208624,59
1974-758024240324,56
1975-768132236123,81
1976-778036254125,93
1977-788218262926,23
1978-797791254926,83
1979-809791304725,52
1980-819912306125,32
1981-8210065303124,69
1982-8310469329725,82
1983-8410601338426,18
1984-8510844348626,36
1985-8610726331525,34
1986-8710593340026,32
1987-8810544350527,26
1988-8910548335826,11
1989-9010594340126,32
1990-9110343349927,74
1991-9211052361826,84
1992-9312071392226,64
1993-9413174443527,61
1994-9513052431827,13
1995-9613134406725,39
1996-9712945396425,11
1997-9813321430926,52
1998-9913618406124,45
1999-0014226442325,49
2000-0115167463425,05
2001-0215197454924,55
2002-0315112451624,50
2003-0414820477526,42
2005-0615111479626,03
2006-0715182468825,32
Total51036715523224,94




DEFPeak Adj. PTS (entire league)Peak Adj. PTS (DEF)
Bobby "Number Four" Orr 121119
Paul "Coff" Coffey 10193
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore 7893
Brian "Leetchie" Leetch 8580
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin 7974
Ray "Bubba" Bourque 8174
Al "Chopper" Macinnis 7973
Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom 7673
Red "Cornflakes" Kelly 6472
Francis "King" Clancy 6970
Phil "Howie" Housley 7568
Sergei "Sarge" Gonchar 6866
Brad Park 6765
Sergei "Zubie" Zubov 7065
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey 5564
Larry "Big Bird" Robinson 6364
Borje "King" Salming 6363
Gary Suter 6863
Larry "Murphs" Murphy 6962
Bill "Gads" Gadsby 5661
Doug Wilson 5960
Rob "Blakey" Blake 6360
Scott "Nieder" Niedermayer 6359
Lionel "The Big Train" Conacher 5659
Chris "Cheli" Chelios 6458
Sandis "Ozo" Ozolinsh 6258
Steve "Duke" Duchesne 6458
Chris "Prongs" Pronger 6058
Guy "Pointu" Lapointe 5856
Reed "Otis" Larson 5656
Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote 5656
Frank "Flash" Hollett 4856
Kevin Hatcher 5954
Scott "Captain Crunch" Stevens 5954
Ian "Bull" Turnbull 5654
Paul "Rhino" Reinhart 5553
Mathieu "Schneids" Schneider 5653
Jeff "Brownie" Brown 5853
Tomas "Kabby" Kaberle 5553
Eric "Rico" Desjardins 5553
Sylvio Mantha 5152
Ron "Gresh" Greschner 5252
Bryan "Caber" McCabe 5451
Teppo "Repo Man" Numminen 5350
Babe "The Honest Brakeman" Pratt 4550
Randy "Kitty" Carlyle 5150
Dave "Babs" Babych 5250
Albert "Babe" Siebert 4150
Brian "Raffy" Rafalski 5250
Fredrik "Freddy" Olausson 5450
Mark Howe 5450
Robert Svehla 5250
Carol "Vad" Vadnais 5150
Earl "SI" Seibert 4150
   
Bill "Quack" Quackenbush 3339


Last edited by pnep: 11-01-2007 at 12:06 PM.
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Old
11-01-2007, 11:51 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by lemieux32 View Post
A bit off topic, but Pnep, where do you get the nicknames from?
database compiled from various sources....

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Old
11-01-2007, 12:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Boucher probably is underrated. A very good argument can be made that he's top 20. That said, adjusting pre29-30 stats is impossible and the results will always be unreliable.
I already solved this problem.....
Use "Assists per Goal per Team", not season total "Assists per Goal" (seasons: 1917-56).

Reason: big difference by "AST per G" per teams in early NHL seasons (1917-56):

Example:

1930-31

Team G AST "AST per G"
BOS 143 109 0,76
CHI 108 114 1,06
DET 102 88 0,86
MTL 129 100 0,78
MTM 105 74 0,70
NYA 76 85 1,12
NYR 106 106 1,00
OTT1 91 87 0,96
PTP 76 69 0,91
TOR 118 142 1,20
Total 1054 974 0,92


And for comparison:


1959-60

Team G AST "AST per G"
BOS 176 292 1,66
CHI 198 343 1,73
DET 195 321 1,65
MTL 254 410 1,61
NYR 204 334 1,64
TOR 234 379 1,62
Total 1261 2079 1,65






Max and Min "AST per G", Season

SEASONMAX "AST per G"Franch.MIN "AST per G"Franch.AVER.Stand. Dev.
1917-180,50OTT10,24MTW0,351,04
1918-190,49OTT10,41MTL0,460,22
1919-200,54HAM0,39MTL0,460,36
1920-210,49OTT10,36MTL0,440,33
1921-220,65OTT10,52MTL0,590,16
1922-230,69OTT10,52MTL0,600,20
1923-240,54OTT10,44TOR0,480,18
1924-250,62MTM0,47BOS0,540,24
1925-260,56OTT10,27BOS0,350,68
1926-270,57BOS0,33MTL0,460,46
1927-280,62CHI0,33NYA0,470,50
1928-290,80TOR0,43NYA0,570,36
1929-301,09TOR0,66MTL0,820,17
1930-311,20TOR0,70MTM0,910,19
1931-321,21CHI0,94BOS1,050,09
1932-331,38TOR1,04BOS1,200,08
1933-341,34CHI0,95MTM1,130,09
1934-351,58NYA1,13MTM1,310,08
1935-361,59CHI1,17TOR1,400,07
1936-371,40MTM1,03BOS1,260,08
1937-381,58CHI1,15BOS1,400,08
1938-391,68NYA1,30BOS1,550,06
1939-401,67MTL1,34BOS1,470,05
1940-411,65CHI1,36TOR1,500,06
1941-421,70DET1,44BOS1,550,04
1942-431,66MTL1,34DET1,510,05
1943-441,56MTL1,29DET1,420,05
1944-451,29CHI1,09DET1,200,05
1945-461,23CHI1,02NYR1,120,05
1946-471,37DET1,20NYR1,300,04
1947-481,45TOR1,29BOS1,360,04
1948-491,49CHI1,28DET1,360,04
1949-501,54CHI1,34DET1,450,04
1950-511,52TOR1,36NYR1,430,03
1951-521,56CHI1,41DET1,500,03
1952-531,66MTL1,42CHI1,510,04
1953-541,62MTL1,42TOR1,530,03
1954-551,67MTL1,48BOS1,540,03
1955-561,66CHI1,50DET1,580,03
1956-571,65BOS1,56TOR1,610,01
1957-581,73BOS1,58TOR1,650,02
1958-591,70MTL1,56DET1,620,02
1959-601,70BOS1,60NYR1,660,01
1960-611,73CHI1,61MTL1,650,02
1961-621,71CHI1,56TOR1,660,02
1962-631,71BOS1,56TOR1,620,02
1963-641,73NYR1,58TOR1,650,02
1964-651,68NYR1,59BOS1,620,01
1965-661,70NYR1,60TOR1,650,01
1966-671,75DET1,58BOS1,650,02
1967-681,68CHI1,55DAL1,620,02
1968-691,75PIT1,59MTL1,650,02
1969-701,69CHI1,54DET1,610,02
1970-711,75BOS1,55LA1,630,02
1971-721,70BOS1,52MTL1,610,02
1972-731,74NYR1,56MTL1,640,02
1973-741,70NYR1,54MTL1,620,02
1974-751,72NJ1,56WAS1,630,01
1975-761,72NJ1,55WAS1,630,02
1976-771,75NYR1,56PIT1,630,02
1977-781,72VAN1,54WAS1,630,02
1978-791,73STL1,53PIT1,640,02
1979-801,73COL1,55NJ1,620,02
1980-811,69PHO1,56DET1,630,01
1981-821,71COL1,55TOR1,650,02
1982-831,73PHI1,55CGY1,650,02
1983-841,72LA1,57MTL1,640,02
1984-851,75COL1,57TOR1,660,02
1985-861,73EDM1,60VAN1,650,01
1986-871,72CHI1,46TOR1,650,02
1987-881,79COL1,61VAN1,660,02
1988-891,75COL1,59CHI1,670,02
1989-901,78PIT1,62VAN1,670,01
1990-911,75WAS1,57BUF1,680,02
1991-921,74LA1,59SJ1,680,01
1992-931,75LA1,61NYR1,680,01
1993-941,77PHI1,57ANA1,670,02
1994-951,75LA1,53OTT1,660,02
1995-961,78PIT1,57STL1,660,02
1996-971,74PIT1,55NYI1,650,02
1997-981,79NYR1,55ANA1,660,02
1998-991,77DET1,59VAN1,680,02
1999-001,77PIT1,59NYI1,690,02
2000-011,78PIT1,60CLB1,700,01
2001-021,78CHI1,56ATL1,690,02
2002-031,78COL1,62ATL1,700,02
2003-041,77DAL1,60NYI1,700,02
2005-061,80DAL1,60WAS1,730,02


Last edited by pnep: 11-02-2007 at 10:41 AM.
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Old
11-01-2007, 12:25 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100mph slapshot View Post
What about Paul Reinhart? He had seasons of 75, 69, 69, 67 and 61pts. I never see his name mentioned anywhere when people talk about offensive D-men. His career PPG is also very impressive: 0,86p/g for regular seasons and 0,94p/g for playoffs. I also see that he retired at 30yrs. Was it because of injuries? He missed quite alot of games during his 10-year NHL career.
Reinhart was terrific. Watched him a lot in his last two seasons in Vancouver. In terms of the level of play achieved with the team, he's likely the best defenceman the Canucks ever had. And that was with a wonky back that ended his career.

Terrific on-ice vision, and he could do it all offensively. The near point-per-game pace in the playoffs is indicative of how good he really was.

When Vancouver acquired him in 1988, everyone knew Reinhart's career was on borrowed time. Calgary was smart - they knew Reinhart could still be a difference-maker, so the one stipulation in the trade was that the Canucks couldn't trade him to the Edmonton Oilers.

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11-01-2007, 01:04 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Calgary was smart - they knew Reinhart could still be a difference-maker, so the one stipulation in the trade was that the Canucks couldn't trade him to the Edmonton Oilers.
LOL. I didn't realize that. Good stuff.

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11-01-2007, 01:41 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Reinhart was terrific. Watched him a lot in his last two seasons in Vancouver. In terms of the level of play achieved with the team, he's likely the best defenceman the Canucks ever had. And that was with a wonky back that ended his career.

Terrific on-ice vision, and he could do it all offensively. The near point-per-game pace in the playoffs is indicative of how good he really was.

When Vancouver acquired him in 1988, everyone knew Reinhart's career was on borrowed time. Calgary was smart - they knew Reinhart could still be a difference-maker, so the one stipulation in the trade was that the Canucks couldn't trade him to the Edmonton Oilers.
Thanks for the info. I guess Reinhart is one of those forgotten "semi-star"-players from the 80s. When you have guys like Coffey, Bourque, MacInnis, Chelios, etc. playing at the same time, it's easy to not notice players that were still very very good. The competition from mid-80s to mid-90s between D-men was insane. So many HHOFers playing at the same time.

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Old
11-01-2007, 05:22 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
So, to get his numbers up, you might have to do the adjusting based solely on scoring by d-men, which is an insane amount of work that I wouldn't blame you if you never wanted to even try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
HO, do you adjust your stats with relation to defenseman only? or the entire league?
You're both right, probably. I only adjust relative to the entire league. (I have to type in players' positions manually, and it's just not worth it to go through 30,000+ lines of player-seasons).

Obviously this works against blueliners that play in eras where defensemen are less active in the offense. This hurts Quackenbush and Pilote, though I don't know the full extent.

Thanks, Pnep, for posting those numbers. Maybe I can copy those and see how much it changes my results.

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