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New Year's Eve 1975, CSKA Moscow vs Montreal Canadians.

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11-04-2007, 11:02 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Wow what a biased homer opinion and from a mod too. Way to overrate one of the dirtiest, unskilled POS teams EVER in the history of hockey. In what universe would the broad street bullies be able to beat ANY soviet team on international ice with refs who actually called penalties. That game was an embarrassment for North American hockey and hockey in general and the CSKA players showed great appreciation of the fans and the game by 1) actually returning to play in a WWF like environment and 2) not coming out swinging sticks after the cheap shots on Kharlamov. Philly is very lucky Russian teams weren't aloud to play dirty.

This is the most overrated meeting of cold war hockey EVER! Its status as being a great game only shows that people from the west don't actually like hockey but like big booms and loud whistles and shiny lights.

Please explain why CSKA Moscow wouldn't be able to win the stanley cup. I would love to hear this.

The only unskilled player on the Flyers was Schultz. Do some research on the Flyers before you start mouthing off at how unskilled they were. You don't win back to back Stanley Cups with a team full of Dave Schultz's.

They left the ice after 10 minutes of play, imagine a full game seven series versus the Flyers? They wouldn't be getting paid like they did in that series so they wouldn't have come back onto the ice. The Flyers would win by forfeit. What a Stanley Cup final that would be.


Last edited by canucksfan: 11-04-2007 at 11:07 AM.
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11-04-2007, 11:16 AM
  #52
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vladnyc those 1990 stats are pretty much worthless. The soviet players had everything to gain by playing the best they could for nhl scouts. People in NA by that time did not care about international matches by club teams.

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11-04-2007, 12:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
The only unskilled player on the Flyers was Schultz. Do some research on the Flyers before you start mouthing off at how unskilled they were. You don't win back to back Stanley Cups with a team full of Dave Schultz's.

They left the ice after 10 minutes of play, imagine a full game seven series versus the Flyers? They wouldn't be getting paid like they did in that series so they wouldn't have come back onto the ice. The Flyers would win by forfeit. What a Stanley Cup final that would be.
I back up your comments. The Flyers weren't an exceptionnaly skilled team, but everybody was so aggressive and gritty that they would eventually score. Case in point : Gary Dornhoefer.

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11-04-2007, 05:43 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hockeynomad View Post
C'mon VladNYC, don't throw these stupid stats in here. They are almost meaningless. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

The CSKA teams in those eras under Tikhonov raided top players from around that infamous Soviet Union. So really they represented almost a national team in itself. Other teams like the Soviet Krila(Wings) were bolstered by four recruits.

The NHL on the other hand is setup to strengthen its weaker teams where the worst team is up to pick the top prospect.

Should the Habs of the 70s and the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s made a tour of the Soviet league, the NHLrs also would win the majority of the games by a large margin.
Only westerners would call stats stupid. I give facts. You blab nonsense.

Here is a comparison of Soviet Clubs vs NHL clubs that would be the Stanley Cup Winners that year.

1975 - 1976

CSKA TIED the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadians

CSKA LOST to the Stanley Cup Winning Flyers in that infamous game.

1978

Sparktak beat the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadian 5-2

1980

CSKA Moscow Beat the Stanley Cup Winning NY Islanders 3 -2

1986

CSKA Moscow Beat the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadians 6 to 1

1989
Dinamo Riga who never won a championship in the Soviet Union TIED the Stanley Cup Winning Calgary Flames

1990

Khimik LOST to the Stanley Cup Winning Edmonton Oilers

1991
Dynamo Moscow BEAT the Stanley Cup Winning Pittsburg Penguins 4 to 3



Soviet clubs went 3 Wins 2 Ties and 3 Losses against Stanley cup winners. To say these soviet teams wouldn't be able to win the cup is BASELESS ********.

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11-04-2007, 05:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Caged Wisdom View Post
vladnyc those 1990 stats are pretty much worthless. The soviet players had everything to gain by playing the best they could for nhl scouts. People in NA by that time did not care about international matches by club teams.
Obviously either you didn't read what i wrote or you have no reading comprehension. The 34-6-16 record comes from the 70s and 80s. NOT THE 90S! The record with the 90s games is

59-10-29! Basically the record of the Detroit Redwings last year.

I love this fantasy world people in the west live in. Stop using excuses to try to bash soviet hockey accomplishments.


Last edited by VladNYC: 11-04-2007 at 08:16 PM.
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11-04-2007, 05:57 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
The only unskilled player on the Flyers was Schultz. Do some research on the Flyers before you start mouthing off at how unskilled they were. You don't win back to back Stanley Cups with a team full of Dave Schultz's.

They left the ice after 10 minutes of play, imagine a full game seven series versus the Flyers? They wouldn't be getting paid like they did in that series so they wouldn't have come back onto the ice. The Flyers would win by forfeit. What a Stanley Cup final that would be.
The majority of the team, including the teams POS star Bobby Clarke had more PIMS then points. With an unbiased ref, the soviet clubs would spend the whole game on the 2 man advantage. What a final THAT would be.

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11-04-2007, 05:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hockeynomad
The CSKA teams in those eras under Tikhonov raided top players from around that infamous Soviet Union. So really they represented almost a national team in itself. Other teams like the Soviet Krila(Wings) were bolstered by four recruits.
Soviet Wings had some players from other Soviet teams playing in 75-6 (I don't know if it was four), but I don't know if this was so for other teams in the other series'.


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The NHL on the other hand is setup to strengthen its weaker teams where the worst team is up to pick the top prospect.
That is because the weaker teams won't survive without winning, especially in US cities.


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Should the Habs of the 70s and the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s made a tour of the Soviet league, the NHLrs also would win the majority of the games by a large margin.
Maybe, but you are assuming this and if this would be so, it would not mean that the Soviet teams were worse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
For the Flyers it was a non-league game in he middle of a long regular season. Didn't mean half as much as a playoff game.
See 1:07 here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1_jFoB3RQM


Quote:
At that time they showed they weren't close to the NHL's two best teams at the time in Philadelphia and Montreal.
Because they got blown out in those games?
It does not matter that Montreal dominated. They blew two goal leads and could not win on home ice. It was only one game anyway.
You want to be proud of that Flyer win, be so, but it is not much to be proud of.



Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
They left the ice after 10 minutes of play, imagine a full game seven series versus the Flyers? They wouldn't be getting paid like they did in that series so they wouldn't have come back onto the ice. The Flyers would win by forfeit. What a Stanley Cup final that would be.
If the Flyers would have continued to be allowed to play as dirty, then it would have been justified.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Caged Wisdom
1990 stats are pretty much worthless. The soviet players had everything to gain by playing the best they could for nhl scouts. People in NA by that time did not care about international matches by club teams.
That is your opinion. What about the fact that Soviet players started leaving for the NHL at the time?
You don't like 1990 then there are plenty others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Series


Last edited by YMB29: 11-04-2007 at 06:15 PM.
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11-04-2007, 06:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
The majority of the team, including the teams POS star Bobby Clarke had more PIMS then points. With an unbiased ref, the soviet clubs would spend the whole game on the 2 man advantage. What a final THAT would be.
...Every team had more PIMs than points in that time. Era Bias. I'd rather have Serge Savard to play with Big Bird than ANY russian D-Men of the '70. Yet he only posted twice more points than PIMs.

And I'd rather have Big Bird as well.

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11-04-2007, 06:35 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...Every team had more PIMs than points in that time. Era Bias. I'd rather have Serge Savard to play with Big Bird than ANY russian D-Men of the '70. Yet he only posted twice more points than PIMs.

And I'd rather have Big Bird as well.
And that's why soviet clubs had such good records against NHL clubs. Because the NHL in those days was more goon orientated then hockey orientated. Dynamo Riga which was the Pheonix Coyotes of the soviet league tied the stanley cup winner. Think about that before you guys go jumping to conclusions and over rating teams that wouldn't stand a chance on international ice with unbiased refs.


Last edited by VladNYC: 11-04-2007 at 08:18 PM.
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11-04-2007, 07:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
And that's why soviet clubs had such good records against NHL clubs. Because the NHL in those days was more goon orientated then hockey orientated. Dynamo Riga which was the Pheonix Coyotes of the soviet league beat the stanley cup winner. Think about that before you guys go jumping to conclusions and over rating teams that wouldn't stand a chance on international ice with unbiased refs.
Anybody qualifiying a guy who logged roughly 45 PIMs a year a goon shouldn't be allowed to post on the History Forum.

Moreso if the player is Serge Savard, who doesn't any presentation, whether it's on the "local" or the "international" stage of the game...
You know... the guy who played the five games Canada didn't lost in the Summit Series?

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11-04-2007, 08:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Anybody qualifiying a guy who logged roughly 45 PIMs a year a goon shouldn't be allowed to post on the History Forum.

Moreso if the player is Serge Savard, who doesn't any presentation, whether it's on the "local" or the "international" stage of the game...
You know... the guy who played the five games Canada didn't lost in the Summit Series?
Does a guy or two not being a goon on a team somehow mean that the Soviet Clubs wouldn't be able to win a cup. Who the **** cares how many PIS 1 guy had? The flyers were a goon team and not just by international standards, that moniker was tagged on them here in west.

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11-04-2007, 08:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Does a guy or two not being a goon on a team somehow mean that the Soviet Clubs wouldn't be able to win a cup. Who the **** cares how many PIS 1 guy had? The flyers were a goon team and not just by international standards, that moniker was tagged on them here in west.
Serge Savard was a Flyer?

Every team would benefit having a Gary Dornhoefer, a Ed Van Impe or a Joe Watson.
The Flyers won the cup because they had lots of scrappy guys who could play and the best goalie of the league at that time. They would spend time in the box? Who cares, Bernie Parent stopped the pucks.
I'm not necessarily a fan of this Flyers squad, but come on, they had a few great individual talents, namely Clarke, Parent and Barber, and would play as a team. They were tough, but it was part of their identity.


Last edited by MXD: 11-04-2007 at 08:34 PM.
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11-04-2007, 08:51 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
The majority of the team, including the teams POS star Bobby Clarke had more PIMS then points. With an unbiased ref, the soviet clubs would spend the whole game on the 2 man advantage. What a final THAT would be.
Booby Orr has more PIMS in his career than points. I guess that makes Orr unskilled as well. For whatever reason I can see that you don't like Clarke but there are only three other players that have more Hart Trophies than him so he must be doing something right. The Flyers were a great team. They were physical but they also had skill.

The game would be reffed under NHL rules and NHL refs since it would be for the Stanley Cup. Gilmour would be an option to ref the series. The fact is that night the Flyers eased off. If the Soviets ran away then they would definately run away under NHL rules.

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11-04-2007, 08:54 PM
  #64
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If the Flyers would have continued to be allowed to play as dirty, then it would have been justified.
Just so you know the Flyers eased up that game. They weren't near as physical as they would be playing an NHL team.

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11-04-2007, 10:51 PM
  #65
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In the 75' game with MTL and RA...the Kharlamov goal tells you all you need to know about what the Russians were capable of. Watch that sequence and tell me they weren't amazing. It was mesmerizing. Sadly,it was the one sequence where it all came together for the Army in that game. Most other possesions for them were broken up with SAVAGE stickwork...and...some excellent checking.
But still...the string of passing that orchestrated the Kharlamov goal was/is as impressive as anything you will ever see on the hockey rink.

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11-04-2007, 11:27 PM
  #66
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point - VladNYC

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11-05-2007, 01:02 AM
  #67
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I wasn't referring to Savard or how many PIMS one ****ing player had, that doesn't matter. As much as you guys would like to take this on a semantics tangent, i won't follow. The bottom line is you guys said these Soviet teams wouldn't be able to win the cup and i burst your baseless fantasy bubble with clear cut stats from games where these teams beat the Stanley cup winners on their own home ice, in front of a hostile crowd, on the smaller ice and with **** reffs.

Stop being such homers. Give props where props is due. You think that you are doing some one a diservice by appreciating teams with guys like Tretiak, Kharlamov, Makarov, Fedorov, etc?

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11-05-2007, 01:11 AM
  #68
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Quote:
1978

Sparktak beat the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadian 5-2
In your original post you said that Montreal won 5-2.

Quote:
Super Series 1978

Spartak Moscow versus the NHL

Spartak won a series against NHL teams with 3 wins, 0 ties, 2 losses. The scores were:

* Vancouver Canucks beat Spartak 2 to 0
* Spartak beat Colorado Rockies 8 to 3
* Spartak beat St. Louis Blues 2 to 1
* Montreal Canadiens beat Spartak 5 to 2
* Spartak beat Atlanta Flames 2 to 1

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11-05-2007, 06:53 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Only westerners would call stats stupid. I give facts. You blab nonsense.

Here is a comparison of Soviet Clubs vs NHL clubs that would be the Stanley Cup Winners that year.

1975 - 1976

CSKA TIED the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadians

CSKA LOST to the Stanley Cup Winning Flyers in that infamous game.

1978

Sparktak beat the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadian 5-2

1980

CSKA Moscow Beat the Stanley Cup Winning NY Islanders 3 -2

1986

CSKA Moscow Beat the Stanley Cup Winning Montreal Canadians 6 to 1

1989
Dinamo Riga who never won a championship in the Soviet Union TIED the Stanley Cup Winning Calgary Flames

1990

Khimik LOST to the Stanley Cup Winning Edmonton Oilers

1991
Dynamo Moscow BEAT the Stanley Cup Winning Pittsburg Penguins 4 to 3



Soviet clubs went 3 Wins 2 Ties and 3 Losses against Stanley cup winners. To say these soviet teams wouldn't be able to win the cup is BASELESS ********.
VladNYC, first of all labelling "Westerners", are you trying to stir up another cold war?

A few things.

First you have your stats out of wack. In 19878 the Canadiens did play the Spartak but the score was 5-2 in favour of the Habs. I know because I was there live.

Secondly, I said the Soviet league talent was stacked on the Moscow based teams, particularly the CSKA. The focus was to quickly gather the players for the national team, and not achieving parity in the Soviet league. Therefore teams like CSKA were extremely powerful. The NHL the focus was on spreading the talent and strengthing the weak teams.

Third, The Soviet Wings team was bolstered by the top forward line of Moscow Dinamo and the four player.


Lastly, I never said the top Soviet clubs would never win the Stanley Cup.

The way Tikhonov raided players throughout the CCCP onto the CSKA made them a powerful force, probably the strongest club team anywhere. But I have provided you the circumstances.

Nas Drovje!

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11-05-2007, 08:51 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
I wasn't referring to Savard or how many PIMS one ****ing player had, that doesn't matter. As much as you guys would like to take this on a semantics tangent, i won't follow. The bottom line is you guys said these Soviet teams wouldn't be able to win the cup and i burst your baseless fantasy bubble with clear cut stats from games where these teams beat the Stanley cup winners on their own home ice, in front of a hostile crowd, on the smaller ice and with **** reffs.

Stop being such homers. Give props where props is due. You think that you are doing some one a diservice by appreciating teams with guys like Tretiak, Kharlamov, Makarov, Fedorov, etc?
Read my post history. I might be one of the biggest Mikhailov fan in NA.
I even think it's funny you didn't mentionned his name, considering his close-to-500 goals scored with the CSKA.
He would spend time in the penalty box for sure, but who cares? He was the most effective russian player of all time, bar none.

Oh, and about Savard... I just wanted to point out there were some great players who notched more PIMs than points in the NHL.

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11-05-2007, 09:12 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
Just so you know the Flyers eased up that game. They weren't near as physical as they would be playing an NHL team.
Did you watch the game?
Why would they even be less physical?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeynomad
First you have your stats out of wack. In 19878 the Canadiens did play the Spartak but the score was 5-2 in favour of the Habs. I know because I was there live.
I think that was a typo. He did say the totals were 3-3-2, not 4-2-2.


Quote:
Secondly, I said the Soviet league talent was stacked on the Moscow based teams, particularly the CSKA. The focus was to quickly gather the players for the national team, and not achieving parity in the Soviet league. Therefore teams like CSKA were extremely powerful. The NHL the focus was on spreading the talent and strengthing the weak teams.
Teams other than CSKA won more than lost also.


Quote:
Third, The Soviet Wings team was bolstered by the top forward line of Moscow Dinamo and the four player.
Again this was for the 75-6 series and not all the time.
Vasiliev and Maltsev from Dynamo played for CSKA and the Yakushev line from Spartak played for the Wings.
But this was more so that North America would see more of the best Soviet players than the Soviets being worried about losing.


Quote:
The way Tikhonov raided players throughout the CCCP onto the CSKA made them a powerful force, probably the strongest club team anywhere. But I have provided you the circumstances.
It was not only Tikhonov. That was the policy then.


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Nas Drovje!
?

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11-05-2007, 04:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Did you watch the game?
Why would they even be less physical?
Yes, I have the game on DVD and watched it many times. I don't know why they were less physical but they were. They did ease up after the Soviets ran away due to 'questionable hits'. How many Flyers games have you watched that happened between 74 and 76?

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11-05-2007, 05:19 PM
  #73
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Nas Drovje!
isn't it "na zdorovye?"

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11-05-2007, 09:29 PM
  #74
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I appreciate soviet hockey, and I was not trying to belittle it's accomplishments. YOU vlad were trying to belittle what you call western accomplishments ( the flyers dominating victory of cska ).

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11-06-2007, 07:56 AM
  #75
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The Soviet fans were the envy of the sport as in North America we did not have the luxury of having an ongoing national sport as was in the USSR.

So we got to watch Lemieux on the same line as Gretzky only for the few games in 1987, but the KLM was together for a decade.

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