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ATD Draft Summary

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Old
11-01-2007, 05:51 PM
  #1
Rick Middleton
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ATD Draft Summary

Shameless stealing here, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own. I'd like each GM's opinion on the following questions. Kudos to EagleBelfour for starting this up in the draft thread.

Biggest Steal of the draft
Biggest Reach of the draft
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
Biggest blunder selection of the draft
A Player finally getting respect in the draft
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
A player you've discovered in this draft
Most underrated player taken
Most overrated player taken
Favourite line of the draft
Best assembled line of the draft
Worst assembled line of the draft
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft

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Old
11-01-2007, 08:11 PM
  #2
Hockey Outsider
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This should be fun. Good idea for a thread.

Biggest Steal of the draft
- Bill Cowley at 144. Two-time Hart winner, top ten scorer eight times. A dominant playmaker who will make his linemates better.
- Tommy Gorman at 562. I realize that he's not an ideal fit for several teams, but how is he the 24th coach taken (after Lindy Ruff and Ted Nolan, among others)? Simply one of the best defensive coaches of all-time.
- Roy Worters at 563. Won the Hart in 1929 and was a two-time all-star (almost certainly would have been an all-star in '29 as well). Led the league in GAA twice (runner-up once) playing for some bad defensive teams.

Biggest Reach of the draft
- I agree with EB here. Butch Goring simply wasn't talented enough offensively to be a #1 centre.
- Steve Smith on the top defense pair. I realize he'll be used as a complement to Leetch, but I'm not sure that he can handle so many minutes against opponents' best players. Smith is good defensively, but not good enough to consistently hold down the fort for Leetch (who is underrated defensively but still takes a lot of risks).

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
- Not a pick, but a trade. Laperriere re-unites the French Connection line. Pappyline makes some good choices with the selections he receives, but the highest pick is Toppazzini.
- Twice for the same GM. Nice to see Laperriere re-unite Secord, Savard and Larmer. This is one of the best third lines in the draft. I would have taken Secord had he been available at 491.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
- Hate to keep picking on him, but Pete Mahovlich at 242 was way too early. To his credit, he does have a lot of positives (playoff experience, size, being a LW), but his stats are really inflated due to his team and era.
- VanIslander, I'm surprised you took Andreychuk when Kerr was still available. They're very similar players, but Kerr was much better in his prime.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
- Marty Barry at 278. He wasn't even picked in ATD #6 and went #383 in ATD #7. Has to be one of the most underrated players ever. Won a retro Conn Smythe; led the playoffs in scoring twice; top ten scorer six times; one year as a Hart finalist; known for great work ethic and durability.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
- Zdeno Chara at 264 is still too high, but he got picked at 178 and 182 the last two times. Even as recently as ATD 7, Chara was taken ahead of guys like Ching Johnson, Bill White and Eric Desjardins.

A player you've discovered in this draft
- Cy Wentworth. I was all set to take him at 340, but BM67 took him at 337. Wenworth was rated the best defensive player of the decade and led the playoffs in scoring one year.

Most underrated player taken
- Hard to call him underrated, but the lack of respect for Johnny Bucyk is puzzling. How does he go at 96 and 101? Bucyk may have won some Byngs, but he was still a tough, grinder forward who was one of the best at gathering lose pucks along the boards or in the crease. He played with truly awful linemates for most of his career but still finished in or just outside of the top ten scorers most of his career (before Orr arrived). Was a five-time all-star at LW if we include third teams.

Most overrated player taken
- Here's an unpopular opinion. I think that Vlad Konstantinov is a bit overrated (possibly because he retired in tragic circumstances, and possibly because we've all watched him play). I'm surprised he was taken in the 5th during the last two drafts. I don't understand why he's always taken ahead of Johnson, Howell and Reardon, among others.

Favourite line of the draft
- This is almost unfair. How could any Habs fan not choose MXD's top line?

Best assembled line of the draft
- Hard to beat GBC's top line. Great mix of speed, stickhandling ability and strong playoff performances. Neely provides the much-needed toughness while the Bentleys should have incredible chemistry.
- Arrbez's second line is also well-assembled. Klukay makes the room while Oates and Hull will score at will. Klukay is one of the best defensive wingers in the draft will Oates' defensive game has always been underrated.

Worst assembled line of the draft
- Seventieslord, your top line has three great players but I just don't see them working together in real life. Dionne, Denneny and Stewart were all primarily goal-scorers; the latter two appear to have been surprisingly weak playmakers given their roles on their teams. Three players with a shoot-first mentality won't work. Stewart and Denneny were also apparently terribly slow skaters, which isn't what you want on the top line. Your forwards have good potential but the current top line is just too slow and shooter-heavy.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft
- I read about Bullet Joe Simpson's encounter with an elephant, which was pretty amusing. Guys, don't get drunk near a circus.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 11-01-2007 at 08:32 PM.
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Old
11-01-2007, 08:25 PM
  #3
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Biggest blunder selection of the draft
- VanIslander, I'm surprised you took Andreychuk when Kerr was still available. They're very similar players, but Kerr was much better in his prime.
Kerr had five (5) great seasons - his only full seasons - and played less than 700 NHL games. Andreychuk became quite disciplined at backchecking and developed leadership qualities as well (not to mention the chemistry he had with Gilmour). I thought of Kerr as a phenomenal fourth liner in an all-time context to sub when needed (or when could) or visa versa, could play on a top line only if a very capable reliable fill-in was drafted.

(I'll later edit this post to flesh out my response to this thread's categories.)


Last edited by VanIslander: 11-01-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
11-01-2007, 11:44 PM
  #4
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A request: Can we put team evaluations in this thread, too? That way, we don't have to go through extensive essays on the main page. (And with long-winded guys like me chiming in all the time [I promise, I won't evaluate every team this draft], those evaluations do become essays).

Anyways, on to my evaluations:
Biggest Steal of the draft: The one that stands out to me the most is Frank Boucher going to Guelph at 108. If we didn't get Bentley at 67, we were going to pick Boucher. The four centres on our list at that point were Bentley, Kennedy, Apps and Boucher (in that order). The fact that Boucher lasted to 108 shocked me. One of the best playmaking centres ever, and very reliable defensively.

Biggest Reach of the draft: If we're talking about a guy playing out of role, Goring probably tops the list (although Murphy can still make changes). This might be one of those "wait until everything shakes out" categories. Petr Svoboda and Al Iafrate on Dartmouth's second pairing is also a big reach. Svoboda's a 6/7 d-man, IMO, and I'm not a fan of Iafrate at all. Too inconsistent. A flake.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft: If HO wants to applaud the reunion of the French Connection and the Party Line (is that what they were actually called? I can't see that fitting with the ultra-quiet Larmer), then I'll applaud the Eagle for reuniting the well-rounded Kraut Line.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft: I think I can forget about VCL/Tricolere's support with this one, but I'll say their first two picks. raleh and I were saying "Imagine picking at 28 and 29, and getting two of Hall, Lindsay and Trottier." Jagr and Brodeur just didn't do it for me.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft: One stands out: Norm Ullman. I think he's a top 100 player of all-time. I never understand how players like Sundin and Modano go ahead of him, other than a modern bias. He's still a steal at 139, but at least he's not going at 200-something.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft: There's many modern players who fit this bill. Just thinking of one? Joe Thornton

A player you've discovered in this draft: Don't know if there is one, but some of BM's west coast pro players are impressive. Never heard of Lloyd Cook, either.

Most underrated player taken: I'm going to say Sweeney Schriner. Not many offensive LWs out there with his portfolio. 173rd overall? Way too late. Ratelle continues to go much too late.

Most overrated player taken: Pavel Bure. No-brainer. A liability in the locker room, and when the puck wasn't on his stick. Explosive, gifted, but a lot of weaknesses in his game.

Favourite line of the draft: Not one of my own? Obviously the MXD top line fits here and in the next category. Kraut Line is another.

Best assembled line of the draft: Eagle's line of Tremblay-Backstrom-Provost. They'll be impossible to score against. pappy's top line of Hull-Boucher-Nedomansky could be very, very dangerous. Same with S. Howe-Gretzky-Bathgate.

Worst assembled line of the draft: Kharlamov-Morenz-Hedberg could be in a lot of trouble against a mobile two-way line or a smart, well-positioned defensive pairing.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft: Well, VCL didn't try to pick a player twice, so that's out of the question. I'm sure arrbez must have done something zany at some point.

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Old
11-02-2007, 02:33 AM
  #5
ck26
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I really hope this doesn't result in tit-for-tat voting / rating and devolve into a turf war.

Biggest Steal of the draft
- Lindsay at 30 was the 2nd best player at the weakest position slipping into the 2nd round. Amazing.
- Simpson at 621. Never heard of him before the draft, but he sounds like someone I would have taken 100 picks prior, which is something I can't say about anyone else.

Biggest Reach of the draft
- Jagr at 28. Probably only went about 10 picks early, but I can't justify him being a team's only skater chosen in the top 83 picks, especially with Lindsay and Trottier still on the board.
- Derian Hatcher as a 1st-pairing defenseman. This guy is vulnerable in any era except the clutch-and-grab 90's.
- Markus Naslund. Lighting in a bottle for a couple years. No chance he's better than Dumart, Dye, Tocchet or Hextall. Him as a 1st line winger gives me pause.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
This is hard ... Richard/Richard/Moore and Pronger/Niedermayer are up there.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
- Same as "biggest reach" I guess

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
- Red Kelly
- Bruce Stuart
- Coach Ken Hitchcock

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
- Paul Coffey went ahead of Scott Stevens in ATD 1-6, but that's been rectified for 7 & 8.
- One-dimensional guys like Dionne and Stastny have been corrected the last couple drafts

A player you've discovered in this draft
- Joe Simpson (half the guys from his era are probably half-urban legend at this point, but he looks remarkable)
- Bryan Trottier (always had him mentally labeled as a Bossy clone; never knew how good a two-way player he was until he fell to me and I did an hour of research)
- Busher Jackson (folks, he's not here to carry sticks)

Most underrated / overrated player taken
Same as steal / reach I guess.

Favourite line of the draft
- Richard / Richard / Moore 1st line ... three great Habs from the same era, wow.
- Gretzky / Bathgate / Howe 1st line ... Bathgate and Howe are perfect on this line
- Heatley / Modano / Kurri 2nd line (shameless plug) ... Modano and Kurri together has always been a little dream of mine

Best assembled line of the draft
Worst assembled line of the draft
- I'll re-attack this later when I'm not so tired


Last edited by ck26: 11-02-2007 at 06:08 AM.
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Old
11-02-2007, 04:44 AM
  #6
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Allright, my takes (I'll just omit opinions on my own team):

Biggest Steal of the draft

I praised the pick at the time, and I'll do it again: Alexander Yakushev. How he gets into the 9th round is really beyond me. The guy is big, a plus skater, a great goal-scorer in the slot, played at his best in pressure situations and had a nice, long career. He was the consistently the best Soviet player against team Canada for pretty much his entire international career, and that is saying something considering the talent mother Russia could ice during that period.

Yakushev doesn't get enough credit if you look at his Russian League hardware because he didn't play for the Red Army team. I think Yakushev went two rounds too late, and at that point in the draft, two rounds is huge. The only reason I didn't pick Bobrov here is because the Big Yak went even later. It was close for us between Kariya and the two Russians, and that was in the 7th round. I have voiced some reservations about how the play of some of the smaller, less physical commies will translate into our rough-and-tumble league, but with Yakushev, I don't have those questions.

Biggest Reach of the draft

I mentioned this one before, as well, and I hate to pick on one of "my guys", but Ken Morrow is a third pairing defenseman and the 10th round is not where you draft those guys. In no way, shape, or form should Morrow be selected with Jean-Guy Talbot (honorable mention for biggest steal) still on the board.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft

This one is tough, because you really have to take the whole team into perspective, but Jiri Bubla in the 13th (reunited with Pospisil in St. Louis) was a very shrewd move. To begin with, I think Bubla is pretty underrated in this forum (again with the Europeans...), but putting that pairing back together adds more value. I think Pospisil-Bubla is one of the best second pairings in the league.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft

Rob Blake. Ugh...he's a rich man's Ed Jovanovski - a defenseman who can do it all when he's on, but a guy who can kill you with idiotic mistakes when he's off. He'd be a good second pairing anchor (I mean, the guy does have a lot of skill), but in the 4th round?! There are guys as low as the 8th round (including on guy I drafted) who I'd prefer to Rob Blake.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft

It's been said before, but I'll repeat it: Marty Barry. Nalyd and I were going to take him with the very next pick. He's one of those healthy, consistent types that I really like and his peak as a playoff performer was very impressive.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft

Alexander Mogilny. Great offensive talent at his peak, but boy are there question marks. The 12th round seems a lot more appropriate for Almo than where he went in ATD#7.

A player you've discovered in this draft

Lots, but Herbie Lewis stands out. Very nice little player.

Most underrated player taken

Probably Lars-Eric Sjoberg. I think Sjoberg is a nice 2nd pairing offensive defenseman who not a lot of NHL fans know about because he was mostly a WHA guy in North America and played on a lesser team Sweden (not as good as the Russians and Czechs is what I mean) during the golden age of European international hockey. The 15th round is too late for Sjoberg.

Most overrated player taken

Tough one here, because I'm not sure what everyone actually thinks of all the players. Going by how hard the drafting GM sold him, I'd say Vlad Krutov is the most overrated player of the draft, but I have my doubts that anyone outside of Flin Flon is actually drinking the Kool Aid on that one. Chemistry is nice, but no way would I take Krutov ahead of Martin, Tonelli, Smith, Bobrov or Yakushev at a minimum, and that is only talking about other left wings.

As far as players who I believe are overrated by a majority of GMs, I'd say any of the goalies not named Benedict who were taken between Hall and Brimsek. I think the goalies who were taken shortly after Hainesworth were also picked too early.

Favourite line of the draft

Tonelli - Tkaczuk - Aurie

My favorite 3rd line in the league, and there are some good ones. Third lines are important, and the good doctor made a real committment to building his into a dynamite unit.

Best assembled line of the draft

Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky

It's a lethal unit with the right mix of talents, and both Boucher and big Ned were nice values where they were taken.

Worst assembled line of the draft

I have to agree that Denneny - Stewart - Dionne is the wrong mix of talent on Regina's first line. Probably, Regina would be better off switching Dionne and Dye and fielding a unit of Denneny - Stewart - Dye, none of whom can skate. If they're all slow skaters, at least Dionne's speed won't be wasted and they do have a lot of talent for playing a half-court cycling offensive game.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft

I learned that when the Leafs did "King Clancy Day" towards the end of old Francis' career, that they made him an Irish green Leafs jersey with a shamrock in the front in place of the maple leaf and that he played in the jersey for the first period before the players on the other team complained about it and the King switched back to a normal sweater.

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Old
11-02-2007, 07:27 AM
  #7
Rick Middleton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Biggest Reach of the draft
- Steve Smith on the top defense pair. I realize he'll be used as a complement to Leetch, but I'm not sure that he can handle so many minutes against opponents' best players. Smith is good defensively, but not good enough to consistently hold down the fort for Leetch (who is underrated defensively but still takes a lot of risks).

Brian Leetch played his best hockey with Jeff Beukeboom as his defensive partner, hence I tried to match his strengths and weaknesses with another players strengths and weaknesses. In the end I came up with Steve Smith as being a good fit for Leetch and someone who brought significantly more to the table than Beukeboom. He's not exactly a tool offensively either. He hit 50+ points 3 times, including once with the Blackhawks (ergo he wasn't just a product of the Oilers system).

I don't see him as being a bad fit for my 1st line. I'm not loading up one line, I spread out my talent over all three lines. That way I can continue to apply offensive pressure regardless of which pairing is on the ice.

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Old
11-02-2007, 07:37 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Worst assembled line of the draft: Kharlamov-Morenz-Hedberg could be in a lot of trouble against a mobile two-way line or a smart, well-positioned defensive pairing.
Morenz isn't exactly a liability defensively

http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2006...ie-morenz.html

Quote:
Toe Blake, who played with and against Morenz and played with and coached Richard, agrees the comparisons are accurate.

"They (Morenz and Richard) had that flair that would just lift the people right out of their seats. That's the best way I can explain it. You can take any era of hockey and the stars of yesterday would be stars of today. And Morenz is right up there at the top of the class. I don't think from end to end I ever saw a guy like Morenz. He was small, stocky, with the most powerful legs you've ever seen. He'd make rush after rush - at least 20 a game - and it never mattered how hard he got hit. Most players, after they were hit, you'd think 'Oh, he can't take that again,' but it didn't matter with him. Shot up into the seats in one rush, by killers like Eddie Shore and Taffy Abel and the like, and he'd come right back as if they didn't exist. And I'll tell you another thing, one of the greatest backcheckers I ever saw. He was just a terrific hockey player."

Nels Stewart, an legend of hockey himself, thought a little higher of Morenz when he said "They don't come like Morenz very often, about one in a century. He had everything, could rush, score goals, backcheck. You couldn't put the Rocket in the same breath as Howie, and that goes for everybody else, including Bill Cook. None of them were in the same stable
And regardless of the pairing, they're going to have to catch them first. These are three of the fastest players to have ever laced them up. Their one weakness is their lack of size, but regardless, you have to be able to hit them to make their size an issue, and good luck to the defensive pairing that can do that.

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11-02-2007, 08:12 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Biggest Reach of the draft

I mentioned this one before, as well, and I hate to pick on one of "my guys", but Ken Morrow is a third pairing defenseman and the 10th round is not where you draft those guys. In no way, shape, or form should Morrow be selected with Jean-Guy Talbot (honorable mention for biggest steal) still on the board.
I agree that Morrow shouldn't go that high, I had planned to take Pitre, but I doubt that if I passed on him he would have lasted more than a round or so. So if you want him, you have to take him near there.

He's a righty shot. This moves him up the pecking order due to demand, plus I already had 3 lefty D. He's 6'4" and mobile/positionally smart enough to excel on international size ice and not rack up big penalty minutes. He is a defensive defenseman without much offense, but he stepped up his production in the playoffs. He scored 12 points in one playoff, and scored 3 OT winners. His goals, assists, points, and GWG's all came at an increased rate in the playoffs. He scored more points in one playoff than Moose Vasko (pick 255) did in his career, and had more career playoff points than Brad McCrimmon (pick 261).

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11-02-2007, 08:20 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
I agree that Morrow shouldn't go that high, I had planned to take Pitre, but I doubt that if I passed on him he would have lasted more than a round or so. So if you want him, you have to take him near there.

He's a righty shot. This moves him up the pecking order due to demand, plus I already had 3 lefty D. He's 6'4" and mobile/positionally smart enough to excel on international size ice and not rack up big penalty minutes. He is a defensive defenseman without much offense, but he stepped up his production in the playoffs. He scored 12 points in one playoff, and scored 3 OT winners. His goals, assists, points, and GWG's all came at an increased rate in the playoffs. He scored more points in one playoff than Moose Vasko (pick 255) did in his career, and had more career playoff points than Brad McCrimmon (pick 261).
(...) playing in an high-scoring era, where it was common for d-mens to attack as opposed to Vasko's era.

The statement is now more complete.

EDIT : Nothing against Ken Morrow, though. And I agree that if you want a player that is likely to be gone at your next pick, you should him, no matter how early the pick looks after on. I don't know when you're next pick was, but if it was, let's say, 40 picks after the spot where you picked Morrow, he would likely have been gone.


Last edited by MXD: 11-02-2007 at 08:55 AM.
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Old
11-02-2007, 08:26 AM
  #11
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I'll preface the following with a note that I'm a rookie in this type of draft. Hence I won't try and state definitively that player X is so much better than player Y but will state whom I like and dislike.

Biggest Steal of the draft

59 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Sprague Cleghorn
80 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
87 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Peter Stastny
101 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Johnny Bucyk

Biggest Reach of the draft

44 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Tim Horton

Sorry, but as much as I love Timmy's coffee I can't rationalize Horton being selected so high over the likes of Bernie Geoffrion, Sprague Cleghorn, Newsy Lalonde, King Clancy, etc. A very good defensive defenceman and decent offensively but not someone who I would choose with a 3rd round pick. Too many more important components out there at the time.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft

144 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Bill Cowley

I made a trade for Cowley and gave up Larionov, whom I had selected earlier with the 135th pick, along with a couple of bump ups in later rounds just to acquire him. At that stage Cowley was a veritable steal.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft

28 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Jaromir Jagr

Jagr ahead of Valeri Kharlamov, Joe Sakic, Jari Kurri, etc. I'm not a Jagr fan. Great when he wants to be. Invisible when he's pouting. Too much of a headcase to burn a first rounder on.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft

I'll opt out of this one given it's my 1st draft.


A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft

Ibid.

A player you've discovered in this draft

Half of my defense corps. Did a lot of reading on the Soviet players, learned to appreciate their talents, especially considering their exploits versus the best of the NHL in the 1970's. They played with the big boys and matched them game for game.

Most underrated player taken

87 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Peter Stastny

I loved Stastny as a kid. He was 2nd to Gretzky in scoring in the 80's. Let me emphasize that again, 2nd to Gretzky. How fricking impressive is that? Plus he was defensively sound and had a mean streak. Add on top of that he had to defect from behind the Iron Curtain just to make it to the NHL. Bundle all those together and you have someone who is deservedly a 2nd round selection IMO.

Most overrated player taken

49 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Billy Smith

Yes, he has plenty of Stanley Cup rings on his fingers. Yes, he was a mean bugger. And yes, he was a money goalie. But in terms of pure talent Smith is taken before literally a half-dozen goalies I would rate higher. I may be alone on this one but I just don't value Smith as highly as others. He was as much a product of that dominant team as he was an individual talent.

Favourite line of the draft

Props to nik jr. and Agent Dale Cooper's line of Roy Conacher-Norm Ullman-Gordie "Mr. Hockey" Howe. Excellent two way first line.

Best assembled line of the draft

Hockey Outsiders line of Don Marcotte - Doug Jarvis - Pit Martin

Great shutdown line.

Worst assembled line of the draft

Don't mean to lump on but Hockey_Guy_18's defensive pairing of Petr Svoboda-Al Iafrate. Who the hell knows what those two could do together? It could be good, it could be ugly.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft

None really.

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Old
11-02-2007, 09:39 AM
  #12
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A few quick points:

*ck, I picked Red Kelly at No. 20 in the last draft, so I don't think he's "finally getting respect." I think he's worth a pick in the top 16-20, because he was so good at two positions. I think Ken Hitchcock has been a head coach in the main draft.
*Sturm, I think Mogilny still goes too high. But that might be because I have no use for the guy. And I believe this is the second-latest that Rob Blake has ever been picked. When I picked him in the last draft, that was the latest.
*RM, Horton is definitely worth a top 50 pick, especially when you consider the way in which defencemen went in this draft. He's one of the best defencemen ever, and he would have put up very big point totals if he would have started 20 years later, when defencemen were encouraged to jump into the rush. Excellent skater, good puck-mover, bullet shot. One of the strongest players ever, too. I got him 50-ish in ATD #6 and thought it was a great pick. I'll put Horton in the top 15 defencemen ever. The 1960s Leafs are considered by some to have the best defence ever. Horton was the No. 1 defenceman. That says a lot.
*I'm a big Howie Morenz fan, but I'm not sure how the Kharlamov-Morenz-Hedberg line will work. I'm a huge Morenz fan (I think he's worthy of a top 20 pick) but I think Kharlamov goes too soon in each draft. (I wouldn't pick Kharlamov ahead of Mahovlich, and, based on what each player brings to a team, I'd maybe look at Dickie Moore ahead of Kharlamov). Kharlamov's an all-time great, but I think he gets that extra cred because there is so much mystery associated with him. I'd like to see that crash-and-bang winger on that line instead of Hedberg.

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11-02-2007, 10:18 AM
  #13
Rick Middleton
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
*RM, Horton is definitely worth a top 50 pick, especially when you consider the way in which defencemen went in this draft. He's one of the best defencemen ever, and he would have put up very big point totals if he would have started 20 years later, when defencemen were encouraged to jump into the rush. Excellent skater, good puck-mover, bullet shot. One of the strongest players ever, too. I got him 50-ish in ATD #6 and thought it was a great pick. I'll put Horton in the top 15 defencemen ever. The 1960s Leafs are considered by some to have the best defence ever. Horton was the No. 1 defenceman. That says a lot.
There are still a half-dozen defencemen I'd rather go with over Horton (to note Leetch, Cleghorn, Niedermayer, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe and Pronger). Horton's defensive prowess is elite, but when you're selecting a #1 defenceman I'd rather go with someone who can headman the puck and provide me with solid D. Horton is more of a rock-solid #2 or an elite #3 than a true #1 in my books.

Quote:
*I'm a big Howie Morenz fan, but I'm not sure how the Kharlamov-Morenz-Hedberg line will work. I'm a huge Morenz fan (I think he's worthy of a top 20 pick) but I think Kharlamov goes too soon in each draft. (I wouldn't pick Kharlamov ahead of Mahovlich, and, based on what each player brings to a team, I'd maybe look at Dickie Moore ahead of Kharlamov). Kharlamov's an all-time great, but I think he gets that extra cred because there is so much mystery associated with him. I'd like to see that crash-and-bang winger on that line instead of Hedberg.
Gretzky-Kurri-Anderson or whomever were there to score, as is my top line. I'm not putting them out against another team's top line to shut them down. I'm putting them out against whomever to light it up.

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11-02-2007, 10:51 AM
  #14
ck26
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*ck, I picked Red Kelly at No. 20 in the last draft, so I don't think he's "finally getting respect." I think he's worth a pick in the top 16-20, because he was so good at two positions. I think Ken Hitchcock has been a head coach in the main draft.
I meant finally as in the last couple drafts. He was going in the 30's for a while (36 and 39 once wow) and low-20's is more appropriate.

Hitch has been in a couple drafts, completely omitted in others ... I think he belongs roughly where he was taken, on the lower end of main draft coaches. Here's hoping we get rid of these stupid assistant coaches and he stays in the 550-650 range.

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11-02-2007, 11:06 AM
  #15
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Biggest Steal of the draft
Ted Lindsay. A guy picked 10 picks later than he should is a HUGE steal in the 1st round.

Bullet Joe Simpson. Not much to add on this one.
Shrimp Worters. Rollins, Dzurilla, Worters. I had it in that order as far as backup goes. They went in that order, but no way Worters should go 100+ picks later than the two guys I mentionned. He was maybe 5'3, but he was adept a stopping pucks, right?

Tommy Gorman. Much later than he should. But more on him later...
Biggest Reach of the draft

Nels Stewart. Won't make any friends with this one, but he just comes with negatives that shouldn't be overlooked.
HM : Kenny Reardon. Reck's pick was really much further down, and Reardon wouldn't have been available. Reardon's prime is indeed good, but he had an awfully short career - the war hurt him, however - , and roughly missed 15% to 20% of the scheduled games every year to injuries. Being on All Star Teams 5 years in a row is quite a feat, but he comes with too much "what ifs" to be taken this early. On the spot, I really did "WTF?!?!?". I think it's a little better now that I think of it. Not that it's actualy a huge reach, it's just one nodoby will point out (I think).

HM : Lennard Svedberg. Nothing against Svedberg, I just think he would have been available in the 14th round for your pick 367, BlueBleeder.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft

Hull, then Oates, then Klukay. Which is the smartest is up to you.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
There's no Handzus this time around... But there's a Maurice.

Bryan Murray. BlueBleeder... Drop him, and pick someone else at the end of the draft. I wouldn't consider Bryan Murray for the JLD (that is, the Junior League Draft), let alone MLD and ATD. There's certainly a good guy remaining (look in the MLD 6 or 7 if you don't know where to start). LL's pick of Paul Maurice last draft suddenly looks great.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
Jack Darragh. He had nothing to do in the 500+ last draft.
Jack Crawford/Cyclone Wentworth. They went 100 picks later last draft. Excellent "dual" picks by BM67.

HM to Sylvio Mantha.
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
Cam Neely. As in... AFTER Boris Mikhailov. Guy Carbonneau, as in, AFTER Dave Keon. Both of them still goes a little too high for my tastes, but they're much closer to their true "rank", if such thing exists, or their rank relative to another player at his position.
A player you've discovered in this draft
Someone I haven't drafted, and that is not drafted (yet). I considered the guy on par with the one I picked for my 7th D-Men spot (Gary Bergman), but just not as complete as Bergman, and I wanted a guy who could take someone's spot in the roster with the "lesser loss, regardless of who's out of the lineup". I knew about him before, but not that much, and I hope he will get drafted.... Or not, I'd like him in my MLD team and will likely be my 1st pick. (this is if I participate in the MLD, of course)

The said player was Glen Harmon.
Most underrated player taken
Bernard Parent. Don't know if he's a steal or if he's underated, but should go before he did for sure.

Vic Hadfield. Could score goals out of nothingness. Should go much before.
Most overrated player taken
Usual suspects. Konstantinov and Foote. A bit of Chara... Great on the special teams, just not much everywhere else, and a pitful playoff record. I think he should go a little later, but not much, and he makes sense where he was picked, and on the team he was picked ; LL have a good and deep Top-4, so I won't consider Chara to be often on the ice at ES.
Even if his death circumstances were tragic, and that he was quite good for the short time he played, Pelle Lindberg shouldn't go in the "Major" ATD. There are two guys (who ain't drafted yet) who had extremely similar career patterns and stats that played more seasons than Lindberg.
And MARTIN BRODEUR. I often say that Sawchuck is overrated, but Brodeur is even worst. He shouldn't have ANY Vezina, and shouldn't even have been NOMINATED for the Vezina those years.
Favourite line of the draft
Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky. I already made my comments about them earlier on.
While I don't necessarily want to pimp my guys, I have to make the following comment : I see that my 1st line gets lots of respect, and that was the point of setting up that line. However, I really like what I was able to do with my third line, by setting up three guys that played together. While I might have "overpicked" Pocket Rocket (I think he shouldn't go ahead of Syl Apps Sr.), that was something of a "dream line" to ice. But I was able to do the same with my third line without reaching for anybody.
Considering what I said about my third line, I think Tremblay - Backstrom - Provost line might be even better at avoiding goals (but not quite as good for scoring them).
Best assembled line of the draft
Hull - Boucher - Nedomansky. They're my favorite because they're well assembled.
As far as "economic" pairing are concerned, Denis Potvin/Harry Howell is right there, with Serge Savard/Phil Housley to a lesser extent. Those teams will have all they want from a 1st pairing, at the lesser cost.
HM to Gillies - Petrov - Darragh. This line could be faster, but that's pretty much there is to say about them.


Worst assembled line of the draft
It's not a line, but...I won't make any friends with this, but I think that's an extreme case of mis-castitis...
Tommy Gorman. My point : He was Head Coach, but even more, he was GM, and slightly megalomaniac considering what I knew about him. I just don't see him being an Assistant Coach, and even less with Cecil Hart. On the other hand, Gorman is something of a steal as far as the "pick" is concerned. I just think he's COMPLETLY miscasted.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft
A fan offering 5$ per bodycheck to Bucko McDonald during a game. The game goes in multiple-OT, and Bucko registered 38 hits during the game.
Something else while looking for a player I haven't drafted yet, and that I might not even draft. I'll update whenever he's picked, or by the end of the draft.

GM having weirds selctions order

With pick 153, Arbez selects Fern Flaman. With pick 184, Arbez selects Alex Ragulin.

- Fern Flaman is a reach as far as I am concerned at 153. And Ragulin is a little steal at 184. Thus, why somebody would pick Flaman ahead of Ragulin is really above me. Ragulin would have been a great pick at 153, and Flaman ... well, he probably wouldn't have been available at 184, as I think Murphy would have taken him. But seeing those two guys taken in such order is a bit mind-boggling. I understand why teams would go for NHLers instead of Euro players (the playoff factor), but it's not like Flaman was a monster playoff performer, and was pretty much neutral in this aspect -- 3 cups in 17 years isn't really that much in the O6 era, even though, to be fair, he was playing with the wrong team.


Last edited by MXD: 11-02-2007 at 07:52 PM.
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Old
11-02-2007, 11:23 AM
  #16
arrbez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post

With pick 153, Arbez selects Fern Flaman. With pick 184, Arbez selects Alex Ragulin.

- Fern Flaman is a reach as far as I am concerned at 153. And Ragulin is a little steal at 184. Thus, why somebody would pick Flaman ahead of Ragulin is really above me. Ragulin would have been a great pick at 153, and Flaman ... well, he probably wouldn't have been available at 184, as I think Murphy would have taken him. But seeing those two guys taken in such order is a bit mind-boggling. I understand why teams would go for NHLers instead of Euro players (the playoff factor), but it's not like Flaman was a monster playoff performer, and was pretty much neutral in this aspect -- 3 cups in 17 years isn't really that much in the O6 era, even though, to be fair, he was playing with the wrong team.
I think you just answered your own question . I wanted both guys, and I figured Ragulin was more likely to drop, and I was right by the look of it. Flaman may not have been the best all-around defenseman at that point, but that's the sacrifice that often has to be made to get a player who's so incredibly dangerous physically. For instance, Scott Stevens was the 7th defenceman taken...which I find far more dubious than Flaman as the 44th (if my counting is right).

Being called the toughest guy to play against by Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau says an awful lot, and I thought Flaman would be an ideal second pairing guy to go with one of the more offensive-minded European defensemen I planned on taking in the next round.


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11-02-2007, 11:54 AM
  #17
nik jr
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Biggest Steal of the draft
f boucher, gorman, lalonde, bucko mcdonald, finnigan, clancy, cowley

Biggest Reach of the draft
taffy abel
i, too, wouldn't pick andreychuk ahead of kerr.
numminen
foote
i wouldn't take niedermayer ahead of cleghorn, clancy, gadsby and a few others.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
tarasov and chernyshev, hitchman

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
punch imlach is too dictatorial for most teams, and that team especially, imo.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
gerard, finnigan, klukay

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
hard to say as this is my 1st draft, but i think chara qualifies.

A player you've discovered in this draft
bruce stuart, lloyd cook, joe simpson

Most underrated player taken
shadrin, wentworth, klukay

Most overrated player taken
konstantinov was 1 of my favorite players, but i think he's almost always taken too high.
i have a low opinion of red horner. he was never an all star, and was a penalty machine.
i think gerry cheevers is overrated.
smyth, doan.

Favourite line of the draft
hull-boucher-nedomansky
blake-taylor-lafleur
tremblay-backstrom-provost
marcotte-jarvis-martin

Best assembled line of the draft
tremblay-backstrom-provost
moore-richard-richard
marcotte-jarvis-martin

Worst assembled line of the draft
pass

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft
babe siebert is the only coach to have never won or lost a game. he drowned after being named coach of the habs, but before actually coaching a game.

re rob blake:
he was the last guy on our list (of about 10 dmen), so we didn't really take him intentionally. we weren't expecting a run. rookie mistake i guess.

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Old
11-02-2007, 02:01 PM
  #18
pitseleh
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Biggest Steal of the draft
Hextall Sr. at 215 is still too low for him. Sid Abel went too late too, IMO. Clancy would have been a good pick 10 spots earlier, which is pretty big that early in the draft. Babe Dye was also a good pick where he went. I'm not a fan of his, but to get his offensive talent that late in the draft is a steal.

Biggest Reach of the draft
Punch Broadbent is a great player, but I think where he went was too early. I wouldn't pick Gary Suter where he was picked either, especially ahead of some of the great defensemen taken in round #8.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
Getting Hainsworth was a great move by ES, IMO. He's in a division stacked with goalies, and making the move to ensure he picked a starter who is at least middle of the pack in the draft was a smart move. It'll stop him from getting overmatched in that area.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
I don't know if blunder is the right word, but I was very surprised that nik jr and Agent Dale Cooper didn't opt to pick Lindsay when he was still around at their second pick. Re-uniting the Production Line would have been fantastic. I understand them not wanting to get stuck without a goalie, but I think it would have been worth it, personally.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
Without a doubt it's Roy Conacher for me. This guy has been a steal where he's been picked in every draft, IMO. He finally went where deserved. Honorable mention to Marty Barry and Bucko McDonald (damn you guys for stealing them from me).

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
Joe Thornton went much too high last draft.

A player you've discovered in this draft
Lloyd Cook came out of left field.

Most underrated player taken
Ott Heller (plus a lot of players who had the misfortune of playing on crappy teams - Gadsby is another that comes to mind).

Most overrated player taken
Dale Hunter. He's a good fourth line player and all, but I still don't get the immense love he gets personally.

Favourite line of the draft
Love the Conacher-Ullman-Howe line in terms of players. I'm a bit worried about the ability of the three phenominal goal scorers to work together (especially without a strong playmaker on defense), but in terms of players it is fantastic.

Best assembled line of the draft
Can't believe no one mentioned Mahovlich-Abel-Geoffrion. That's an outstanding line combo, IMO. Firsov-Fedorov-Mikhailov will be something to watch too. Hull-Boucher-Nedomansky will be a sight to see as well.

Worst assembled line of the draft
Ovechkin-Lemaire-Mogilny seems like an odd collection of players to me.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft
If I think about one, I'll add it.

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Old
11-02-2007, 02:40 PM
  #19
nik jr
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Favourite line of the draft
Love the Conacher-Ullman-Howe line in terms of players. I'm a bit worried about the ability of the three phenominal goal scorers to work together (especially without a strong playmaker on defense), but in terms of players it is fantastic.
i see your point, but we think this line will be very effective.

before i saw howe on film, i never knew that his vision and playmaking were so good. he was a great playmaker. he did the NHL in assists 3 times.
apparently, ullman's big year when he led the NHL in goals came after howe told him to stop trying to make the perfect pass and shoot more.
conacher did finish 2nd in assists (only 1 behind the leader) when he won the art ross, so we think it'll be OK.


i don't really know which way to go on dman to run the offense with the 1st line. hod stuart was great at it, but some will think he's not up to it. siebert finished in the top 10 in assists as a dman when he won the hart, so he might be the best bet.

i really wanted to take lindsay, but my co-GM was set against it, especially since we traded up to get a goalie.

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11-02-2007, 02:43 PM
  #20
pitseleh
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i see your point, but we think this line will be very effective.

before i saw howe on film, i never knew that his vision and playmaking were so good. he was a great playmaker. he did the NHL in assists 3 times.
apparently, ullman's big year when he led the NHL in goals came after howe told him to stop trying to make the perfect pass and shoot more.
conacher did finish 2nd in assists (only 1 behind the leader) when he won the art ross, so we think it'll be OK.


i don't really know which way to go on dman to run the offense with the 1st line. hod stuart was great at it, but some will think he's not up to it. siebert finished in the top 10 in assists as a dman when he won the hart, so he might be the best bet.

i really wanted to take lindsay, but my co-GM was set against it, especially since we traded up to get a goalie.
I agree, all of them are good playmakers, my concern is that it may draw them away from their strength (goal scoring) a bit to compensate. Even with that though, it's still one of the top offensive lines in the draft.

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11-02-2007, 05:15 PM
  #21
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(...) playing in an high-scoring era, where it was common for d-mens to attack as opposed to Vasko's era.

The statement is now more complete.

EDIT : Nothing against Ken Morrow, though. And I agree that if you want a player that is likely to be gone at your next pick, you should him, no matter how early the pick looks after on. I don't know when you're next pick was, but if it was, let's say, 40 picks after the spot where you picked Morrow, he would likely have been gone.
Fine. Using pnep's adjusted playoff stats, Morrows 12 points becomes 10.22 and Vasko's 9 points becomes 15.72, but we're still comparing ONE YEAR to an ENTIRE CAREER.

I'm not trying to knock Vasko, scoring is neither player's strong point, but he's the polar opposite of Morrow when it comes to playoff points. Morrow goes from 0.03 gpg, 0.16 apg and 0.19 ptspg in the regular season to 0.09 gpg, 0.17 apg, and 0.26 ptspg in the playoffs. Vasko goes from 0.04 gpg, 0.21 apg and 0.25 ptspg to 0.03 gpg, 0.09 apg, and 0.12 ptspg. Vasko's scoring drops by 55% while Morrow's climbs by 36%.

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11-02-2007, 05:28 PM
  #22
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Fine. Using pnep's adjusted playoff stats, Morrows 12 points becomes 10.22 and Vasko's 9 points becomes 15.72, but we're still comparing ONE YEAR to an ENTIRE CAREER.

I'm not trying to knock Vasko, scoring is neither player's strong point, but he's the polar opposite of Morrow when it comes to playoff points. Morrow goes from 0.03 gpg, 0.16 apg and 0.19 ptspg in the regular season to 0.09 gpg, 0.17 apg, and 0.26 ptspg in the playoffs. Vasko goes from 0.04 gpg, 0.21 apg and 0.25 ptspg to 0.03 gpg, 0.09 apg, and 0.12 ptspg. Vasko's scoring drops by 55% while Morrow's climbs by 36%.
And Morrow scored important goals at playoff time. He had 3 OT winners, the most famous being the one that won the deciding game against the Rangers in `84. Are there any other defencemen with three playoff OT winners?

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Old
11-02-2007, 07:05 PM
  #23
seventieslord
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And Morrow scored important goals at playoff time. He had 3 OT winners, the most famous being the one that won the deciding game against the Rangers in `84. Are there any other defencemen with three playoff OT winners?
Nicklas Wallin? I think he has three career playoff goals, all in OT.

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Old
11-02-2007, 07:22 PM
  #24
pappyline
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Biggest Steal of the draft
Lindsay was a definite early steal. D Bentley should have went a round earlier, Ulf Nilsson was an incredible late round steal.

Biggest Reach of the draft
Boivan @ 156. There were many better Dmen still out there.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
Canít really say for sure. I think trading up to get a specific player is risky. Never do it (except for Hull, of course)

Biggest blunder selection of the draft
Agree with several others regarding Jagr & Brodeur before Lindsay

A Player finally getting respect in the draft
Good to see Murray Oliver, Rene Robert, Camille Henry finally picked in the main draft. Also good to see Norm Ullman, Fern Flaman, Bill White, Bert Olmstead Walt Tkaczuk getting picked closer to where they belong.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
Players like Huddy, Foote, Ciccarelli, Elias. Dale Hunter were, IMO, always picked too high in past drafts. Maybe still too high.


A player you've discovered in this draft
Actually there were many. Several old-timers plus some Europeans that I must do some more research on. Very impressed with the research some GMís have done. Bullet Joe Simpson jumps out at me but there are several others.

Most underrated player taken
I agree with others on Bucyk. Busher Jackson is another I consider under-rated. He should be ranked much closer to linemate Conacher.

Most overrated player taken
Gainey. Ferguson,Shutt. I really think quite average players on Habs dynasties get way over-rated.

Favourite line of the draft
Favorites are the Krauts & the Jackson-Trottier- Hextall line.
Also like
Mahovolich-Abel-Geoffrion
Bentley-Bentley-Neeley
Moore-Richard-Richard
French Connection

Best assembled line of the draft
Bentley-Bentley-Neeley. Have a soft spot for the Bentleys & think Neeley was a good pick for the RW.
Also, really like the Big M-Abel-Geoffrion line.

Worst assembled line of the draft
Several fall into this category but will keep my comments for the match ups.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft
There are a couple but they have already been mentioned.

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Old
11-02-2007, 07:35 PM
  #25
vancityluongo
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I'll post mine later...and we've already had this discussion but:

I can see how getting Lindsay was a steal...I quite frankly agree. What I don't agree on is how taking Jagr can be a blunder. You might not like the guy for whatever reason, but he has offensive talent, and he knows how to play. Okay, maybe taking him at 28 is early...so where should he be picked? 40? 50? Meh.

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