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Old
11-05-2007, 06:42 PM
  #76
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by LapierreSports View Post
Biggest Reach of the draft

Lindros at #114
Eight (8) dominant seasons isn't enough of a peak?

Bobby Orr only had nine (9) wonderful seasons in Boston.

It's amazing how different we view a career that ends early due to injury and a career that continues at a fraction of a percentage of the great past.

If Lindros had retired in 2000 we would be esteeming him as a top-100 talent whose career was tragically ended by injury. Instead he stayed around and looked a painful shell of his former self, allowing our disappointment at the situation tarnish the memories of a man who shouldn't be remembered for the last few years.

The knock on Lindros is that so many expected him to have a top-10 or top-5 all-time type of career. He is in the 101-149 range all-time in terms of all-time career and given the sort of skills he brings to the Raiders it was important to take him AT MOST one round earlier than he should. One of the biggest reaches of the draft? Not even close.

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Old
11-05-2007, 06:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Eight (8) dominant seasons isn't enough of a peak?

Bobby Orr only had nine (9) wonderful seasons in Boston.
That is one weak argument, I mean really look at what Bobby Orr accomplished in those 9 years with the Bruins, then look at what Lindros did in those 8, sure he had all the talent in the world but his attitude and injuries held him back... he had one season in which he was the best player in the league and past that he was an oft injured center that I don't think lived up to the expectations that were put on him. Everyone expected a player who could see the ice like Gretzky while being able to hit as hard as anyone in the game and if you take it into context even during his prime having just three seasons with more than 40 goals isn't that good, especially when you consider Lindros played in the early 90s, which with expansion resulted in a huge rise in the goals scored across the league.

Without injuries you are right but you need to take them into consideration when determining Lindros's place in hockey history.

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Old
11-05-2007, 07:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Frightened Inmate #2 View Post
...look at what Lindros did in those 8, sure he had all the talent in the world but his attitude and injuries held him back..
How did his attitude detract from his style of play or success at it?

1992-93 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 61 41 34 75 147
1993-94 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 65 44 53 97 103
1994-95 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 46 29 41 70 60
1995-96 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 47 68 115 163
1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 52 32 47 79 136
1997-98 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 63 30 41 71 134
1998-99 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 71 40 53 93 120
1999-00 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 55 27 32 59 83

2001-02 New York Rangers NHL 72 37 36 73 138

There is his first nine (9) seasons, I extending an extra year for comparison purposes, though of course his retiring after his season off would have been natural and preserve his legacy. He was of course much more than a goal scorer over those first 8 seasons.

He was great for 8 to 9 seasons and while he may not have have played 82 game seasons it did not prevent him from having among the best of seasons over the eight (8) year span he was a Flyer.

I never for a moment said he was as great as Orr. An analogy shouldn't be taken too far! It was a counterfactual argument: If orr played another five years with bad knees and gave up his end-to-end rushes, playing smart first passes and being dominant at the point on the powerplay, his drop to 70% of his former self would have tarnished his legacy. Mike Bossy is more legendary for retiring after 10 seasons than if he kept playing until he was 39 years old.

If you think Lindros did not have a 101-149 all-time type of career then say so. Then indeed he would be one of the biggest reaches of the draft.

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Old
11-05-2007, 07:47 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
How did his attitude detract from his style of play or success at it?

1992-93 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 61 41 34 75 147
1993-94 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 65 44 53 97 103
1994-95 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 46 29 41 70 60
1995-96 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 47 68 115 163
1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 52 32 47 79 136
1997-98 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 63 30 41 71 134
1998-99 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 71 40 53 93 120
1999-00 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 55 27 32 59 83

2001-02 New York Rangers NHL 72 37 36 73 138

There is his first nine (9) seasons, I extending an extra year for comparison purposes, though of course his retiring after his season off would have been natural and preserve his legacy. He was of course much more than a goal scorer over those first 8 seasons.
For comparison purposes look at where he was relative to other players in the league...

1992-93: 2 players scored over 70 goals and Lindros wasn't even the top scorer on his team.
1993-94: Once again Lindros not in the top 10 in goal scoring/points and was second on his team in points
1994-95: Lindros tied for the lead in points and was 6th in a shortened season, this I would qualify as a great season but there does need to be a bit of an astrix just because of the lockout and the shortened season.
1996-97: Lindros 9th in goals and 6th in points.
Then the injuries hit
1998-99: 7th in goals and 7th in points.
2001-02: 9th in goals.

I understand that there is more than points in the game of hockey but Lindros wasn't a dominant defensive player and while he did have a physical side, I don't see him stacking up so well in an all time draft from an offensive standpoint to justify selecting him where he was selected. 175-200 is likely the right spot and while it isn't the biggest reach he was picked to early. Personally I think he does a much better job as a second line center than he does a first due to the injury concerns and the fact he really hasn't lead a team to much of anything.

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Old
11-05-2007, 08:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Frightened Inmate #2 View Post
Personally I think he does a much better job as a second line center than he does a first due to the injury concerns
That is exactly why I drafted big, talented Hlinka for the bench.

Gilmour is a great second line centre since that position is usually the guy who is matched up against the opposition's top line centre.

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11-05-2007, 08:14 PM
  #81
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I wouldn't say Lindros had eight dominant seasons. And I certainly wouldn't say his dominance for those eight seasons was on a level of Orr's dominance. If you're looking for that big, skilled centre who can dominate in every possible way, and you're willing to look past his character and attitude flaws, take the Big E. I wouldn't pick him, but he isn't a reach at 114.

I'd say he had four, maybe five, dominant seasons (1995, 1995-96, 1996--97, 1998-99, maybe 1997-98), and one dominant playoff (the first three rounds in 1997). He was really good in 1992-93, and okay in 1993-94 (a lot of people wanted a lot more from him that year), and all right in 1997-98. Don't let the stats blind you for his performance in 1999-2000: he apologized to his teammates partway through the season for letting his feud with Bobby Clarke affect his play.

He won a Hart in 1995, was a second-team all-star in 1996 (in what was likely the best year for centres in the last 15 years), was dominant in 1996-97 after missing the first few weeks with an injury, was the best player in the first three rounds of the 1997 playoffs, and was playing what some believed to be the best hockey of his career in 1998-99 before the collapsed lung injury. (And that was the real turning point in his career).

He's good enough to be a first line centre, and good enough for the 114th pick in the draft, when you consider what he brings on the ice.

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Old
11-06-2007, 11:05 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Eight (8) dominant seasons isn't enough of a peak?

Bobby Orr only had nine (9) wonderful seasons in Boston.

It's amazing how different we view a career that ends early due to injury and a career that continues at a fraction of a percentage of the great past.

If Lindros had retired in 2000 we would be esteeming him as a top-100 talent whose career was tragically ended by injury. Instead he stayed around and looked a painful shell of his former self, allowing our disappointment at the situation tarnish the memories of a man who shouldn't be remembered for the last few years.

The knock on Lindros is that so many expected him to have a top-10 or top-5 all-time type of career. He is in the 101-149 range all-time in terms of all-time career and given the sort of skills he brings to the Raiders it was important to take him AT MOST one round earlier than he should. One of the biggest reaches of the draft? Not even close.

Im not the biggest Eric Lindros fan and would never draft him on my team. Especially when Sid Abel, A.Delvecchio and even Keon and Ullman are available. The fact that Lindros continued to play after 2000 has no impact on how I feel about him. Yes, he had dominants season, but Lindros would never be the 1st center I would take on my team, give me someone who had a longer consistent peak. And anyone who refuses to play in Quebec City, where they live and breed hockey, after being drafted out of juniors should be banned from hockey. Who in their right mind would turn down an opportunity to play hockey in the NHL in Canada when you are a JUNIOR player. I dont want that crybaby-primadonna attitude on my team ,especially at pick #114


Last edited by LapierreSports: 11-06-2007 at 11:55 AM.
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Old
11-06-2007, 02:04 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LapierreSports View Post
...anyone who refuses to play in Quebec City, where they live and breed hockey, after being drafted out of juniors should be banned from hockey. Who in their right mind would turn down an opportunity to play hockey in the NHL in Canada when you are a JUNIOR player.
Gee, the grudge runs deep in Montreal.

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Old
11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Gee, the grudge runs deep in Montreal.
Well, the fact that he refused to play with the team that drafted him is condemnable, wherever is was. And it was still Quebec --- not a big market, but a team where people are really hockey-passioned.

I think he's a 1st center. He'd just rather have a darn solid/proven/leader/intangibled to play behind him. Regardless of questions surrounding him, Gilmour is such a guy. Absolutely not the best in that regards, but fits the bill.

Furthermore, he's way too big for Keira Knightley.

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Old
11-06-2007, 02:26 PM
  #85
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I think he's a 1st center. He'd just rather have a darn solid/proven/leader/intangibled to play behind him. Regardless of questions surrounding him, Gilmour is such a guy. Absolutely not the best in that regards, but fits the bill.
Yeah, I picked up Dougie and Eric close together in the same round, and you'll notice that Lindros is NOT a captain. Gilmour and Brind'amour are alternate captains for the Raiders and Stevens the captain. Tons of solid/proven/leader/intangibles. With one of the greatest Czech centres, 6'2 strong Hlinka able to step in to cover any injury or suspensions.

Quote:
Furthermore, he's way too big for Keira Knightley.
now THAT's a good one!

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Old
11-06-2007, 02:34 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Eight (8) dominant seasons isn't enough of a peak?

Bobby Orr only had nine (9) wonderful seasons in Boston.
VanI, for mentioning the Big E's name with our Lord and Saviour, his Royal Highness, Bobby of the Golden Stick, you deserve a kick in the junk. Just be happy we're not in the same city, elsewise I'd be jumping in my car now.

All praise Bobby!

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Old
11-06-2007, 02:52 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rick Middleton View Post
...our Lord and Saviour, his Royal Highness, Bobby of the Golden Stick, you deserve a kick in the junk. All praise Bobby!
a decent rookie and sophomore season and then - whammo - a perfect six (6) seasons from him

clearly the most respected 6 seasons of play in hockey history (from age 21 to 27 he was a hockey god)

sorry for asking one to imagine him keep playing at 60-70% of his former self (due to injury) past age 27, well into his thirties... i realize that's blasephemy

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11-06-2007, 02:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Gee, the grudge runs deep in Montreal.
Alright ive calmed down. You guys make good points with Gilmour wich are tough to argue with. Your lucky you drafted Gilmour VanI !

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Old
11-06-2007, 03:02 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by LapierreSports View Post
Alright ive calmed down. You guys make good points with Gilmour wich are tough to argue with. Your lucky you drafted Gilmour VanI !

Raider Extraordinaire

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Old
11-06-2007, 06:21 PM
  #90
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Biggest Steals of the draft
Newsy Lalonde #70-If I get a low 1st rounder, don't be surprised to see Newsy shoot up 50 spots. Belongs in the same range as Lafluer and Esposito.
Cyclone Taylor #80-Dynamic game breakers shouldn't slip to the 3rd.
Frank Boucher #108-The prototype for the modern center should go in the top 80.
Frank Nighbor #150-People say Dave Keon always goes low, but Nighbor is a rich man's Keon and goes even lower.
Moose Johnson #248-Possibly the best d-man of his era, could rise 100 spots.
Al Arbour (Coach) #333-Could go rounds earlier.
Hap Holmes #449-Clutch goalies like Fuhr and Cheevers go very high, but this 4 time cup winner gets no love as a potential starter.
Frank Mcgee #540-Probably a very good #2 center, but lack of info is a hindrance.
Viktor Konovalenko #613-A high end back-up. With a pick this astute I'd drop Bar******* and fill in holes elsewhere...
Vladimir Martinec #649-How does one of the top 40 RWs of all time slip to the last round?
Biggest Reaches of the draft
Paul Coffey #42-Not diverse enough to be a #1.
Frank Mahovlich #61-A malcontent who's the perfect example of what a choker looks like on a great team. You have to really build around him and he's just not worth the effort.
Bob Gainey #69-Taking a specialist this early handicaps your team from the word go.
Vladimir Krutov #193-Too risky to be top 200.
Sydney Crosby #251-WAAAAAAAY too soon.
Dick Irvin (Coach) #393-This might be controversial, but I wouldn't touch him with a 2 thousand foot pole in the last round of the minor league draft if I needed a coach. There is simply no way in hell a Dick Irwin coached team can survive 80 games and 4 playoff rounds. None. His teams frequently hit the wall after 50-70 games and 2 playoff rounds. He asks too much of his players and he gets it. Then they don't have anything left in the tank after 10 games of playoff hockey. There's a reason that his teams are notorious chokers, him. He has 3 times as many finals losses than any other coach in history. That is huge.
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft
Norm Ullman #139-It's difficult to get a legitimate fist line center after the 4th round, but, by reuniting Ullman and Howe, Seattle got a viable #1 at the end of the 5th.
Biggest blunder selection of the draft
The aforementioned Dick Irwin pick. If BM67 took Gorman, I would concede defeat, I just don't see how anyone could beat Gorman coaching that defense. But with Irwin, I now see no way they can possibly win.
A Player finally getting respect in the draft
Johnny Gottselig #410-He deserves to be a #2 LW, a very good clutch performer.
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft
Tretiak.
A player you've discovered in this draft
Mostly guys Sturminator pushed for behind the scenes like Jack Adams, Bruce Stuart and Billy Boucher.
Most underrated player taken
Frank Nighbor.
Most overrated player taken
Mark Messier
Favourite line of the draft
Howe-Gretzky-Bathgate
But, being unbiased.
Kharlamov-Morenz-Hedberg-Has it's problems, but DAMN! That'd be fun to watch.
Best assembled line of the draft
Jackson-Trottier-Hextall
Hull-Boucher-Nedomansky
Metz-Otto-Smith
Bailey-Broten-Mullen-Would likely end up the most underestimated line of the draft.
Conacher-Ullman-Howe
Bentley-Bentley-Neely
Firsov-Fedorov-Mikhailov
Klukay-Oates-Hull
Smith-Kennedy-Mosienko
Worst assembled line of the draft
Whatever line Messier's on. I HATE MARK MESSIER!

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Old
11-06-2007, 06:28 PM
  #91
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Quote:
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Whoa. I'm sure Douggie wants that picture buried and never dug up again. Yikes.

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Old
11-06-2007, 06:30 PM
  #92
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Quote:
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Whoa. I'm sure Douggie wants that picture buried and never dug up again. Yikes.
I've been searching for years now for a picture of Douggie wearing cow pants for the Got Milk? ads. Anybody have one?

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11-06-2007, 06:59 PM
  #93
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I've been searching for years now for a picture of Douggie wearing cow pants for the Got Milk? ads. Anybody have one?
I know the ad, but I am pretty sure it was not a part of the "got milk?" campaign.

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11-06-2007, 07:10 PM
  #94
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I know the ad, but I am pretty sure it was not a part of the "got milk?" campaign.
You could be right. Maybe Gilmour just likes cow-pants? And as a faithfull disciple of The Douggie, who am I to question that?

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11-06-2007, 11:43 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Biggest Reaches of the draft
Dick Irvin (Coach) #393-This might be controversial, but I wouldn't touch him with a 2 thousand foot pole in the last round of the minor league draft if I needed a coach. There is simply no way in hell a Dick Irwin coached team can survive 80 games and 4 playoff rounds. None. His teams frequently hit the wall after 50-70 games and 2 playoff rounds. He asks too much of his players and he gets it. Then they don't have anything left in the tank after 10 games of playoff hockey. There's a reason that his teams are notorious chokers, him. He has 3 times as many finals losses than any other coach in history. That is huge.
Biggest blunder selection of the draft
The aforementioned Dick Irwin pick. If BM67 took Gorman, I would concede defeat, I just don't see how anyone could beat Gorman coaching that defense. But with Irwin, I now see no way they can possibly win.
Strange how:

Irvin won as many Stanley Cups as your two coaches combined.

He won more Stanley Cup Final games than your two coaches won playoffs games.

Your two coaches 6 first place finishes resulted in 1 Stanley Cup and no other Finals appearances, while Irvin's 8 first place teams won 2 Cups and made the Finals 6 times.

Irvin was voted to the all-star teams 9 times (3 first, 6 second), while your coaches were only voted twice (once each, both as 2nd team).

Neither Chicago or Toronto made the Finals the year after he left them. Toronto even had Hap Day as coach and Turk Broda in nets.

Getting your team to the Finals 16 times over 24 years is a bad thing.

Irvin is such a bad selection that you don't even have to look at the rest of my roster.

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11-07-2007, 12:38 AM
  #96
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Quote:
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I know the ad, but I am pretty sure it was not a part of the "got milk?" campaign.
it was indeed part of the got milk campaign

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11-07-2007, 12:40 AM
  #97
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Getting your team to the Finals 16 times over 24 years is a bad thing.
When you make 16 trips to the finals and have 3 wins, that is one massive black flag. There's no other way to look at it.

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11-07-2007, 01:30 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
When you make 16 trips to the finals and have 3 wins, that is one massive black flag. There's no other way to look at it.
I'm with BM67 on this one ... making 16 trips to the finals, regardless of outcome, is pretty decent. Just making the playoffs 16 times is pretty decent.

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11-07-2007, 04:23 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
When you make 16 trips to the finals and have 3 wins, that is one massive black flag. There's no other way to look at it.
i think he won 4 times, not 3.

i would definitely not go as far as you regarding irvin, but it is an interesting argument. considering all the great players he had, 4 wins is not very many.

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I'm with BM67 on this one ... making 16 trips to the finals, regardless of outcome, is pretty decent. Just making the playoffs 16 times is pretty decent.
making the playoffs in irvin's time wasn't really a great accomplishment, imo. think only 1 or 2 teams (of 8 or 6 teams) missed the playoffs.


i'm not sure about this, but nalyd's point is very interesting.

getting to the finals 16 times is certainly a great accomplishment, but i would also say that the purpose of a great coach is supposed to be to put strong teams (like the 30s maple leafs and the mid 40s-early 50s habs), that were already talented enough to go deep in the playoffs, over the top. it seems to me that irvin's teams often underperformed.

irvin coached really good teams, but probably didn't win as much as he should have and had a terrible record in the finals. it seems to me that if you just covered up irvin's name and showed the rosters and the playoff results, many doubt the coach's ability.

irvin coached great maple leafs teams that featured all star team regulars clancy and the kid line, plus day and horner, but they only won the cup once.
in the '38 finals, they lost to chicago, the 2nd worst team in the league, with the worst offense and 2nd worst D. i think that chicago team is often considered the worst to ever win.
it seems that toronto team could have been a dynasty, but it wasn't. in irvin's time with a consistently very good toronto team, 6 other teams (habs, red wings, rangers, maroons, blackhawks, bruins) won the cup. they were not always just losing to better teams.

(seems to me to be sort of similar to the 60s blackhawks single win.)

irvin did better with montreal, although probably any decent coach could have won in '44, since the other teams were decimated by the war. but it seems to me that montreal should have won more than they did. they could have been the best team of the 40s, but toronto was.
maybe kennedy's statement that toronto won 5 cups because of day's coaching is true. irvin's habs lost to toronto often, despite probably having a better team.
(i was hoping we could get hap day, but pitseleh drafted him 1 spot ahead of us. )
durnan is frequently criticized for losing to toronto, but irvin seems to escape that same criticism. but maybe he deserves some of the blame.

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Old
11-07-2007, 09:26 AM
  #100
seventieslord
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it was indeed part of the got milk campaign
The Dougie with Cow Legs ad was from the 1993-94 season. "Got Milk?" didn't start until at least 1996, and was a completely different format. it was mostly magazine ads with celebrities with a milk moustache..... so how is the gilmour ad part of that campaign?

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