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Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

PROPOSAL: Tampa Bay - Washington

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Old
01-14-2004, 10:54 AM
  #1
DrHockeyMD
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PROPOSAL: Tampa Bay - Washington

First of all, a little disclaimer. Yes, I know they're in the same division so this deal isn't incredibly likely. Also, I'm just throwing this out there for a little discussion. I just want to hear what people have to say. Now for the proposal:

To Washington: Khabibulin, Lecavalier

To Tampa Bay: Kolzig, Lang

I figure even though Khabibulin is doing considerably better than Kolzig, Lang's point scoring would offset that difference, as well as Lecavalier's 'supposed' potential. We all know Lecavalier isn't happy (who gives a damn?) and I was wondering how TB fans would feel about him leaving. Thoughts?

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01-14-2004, 10:59 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHockeyMD
First of all, a little disclaimer. Yes, I know they're in the same division so this deal isn't incredibly likely. Also, I'm just throwing this out there for a little discussion. I just want to hear what people have to say. Now for the proposal:

To Washington: Khabibulin, Lecavalier

To Tampa Bay: Kolzig, Lang

I figure even though Khabibulin is doing considerably better than Kolzig, Lang's point scoring would offset that difference, as well as Lecavalier's 'supposed' potential. We all know Lecavalier isn't happy (who gives a damn?) and I was wondering how TB fans would feel about him leaving. Thoughts?
There is no way that deal happens. As a Caps fan I would take a shot at Lecavilier for Lang, but thats a nice payroll bump for the Bolts and that will never happen.

How about Lecavilier for Zubrus straight up?

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01-14-2004, 11:00 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
How about Lecavilier for Zubrus straight up?
How about Halpern for Dingman?

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01-14-2004, 11:02 AM
  #4
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How about this thread oughta be locked.

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01-14-2004, 11:06 AM
  #5
DrHockeyMD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolthed
How about this thread oughta be locked.
Only comments like yours should be locked. Can I please get some real discussion here?

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01-14-2004, 11:08 AM
  #6
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Both of the proposals are heavily stacked in Washington's favor. Kolzig has played terribly all year and the whole league knows it. As for Zubrus... he has some limited trade value but not nearly on the order of Vincent Lecavalier.

 
Old
01-14-2004, 11:13 AM
  #7
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I love this deal if I'm a Washington fan. I get a younger, better goalie at a cheaper price.

I also exchange a 30-something overachiever with past character issues for a 23-year-old coming off a 30 goal, 78 point year. I also shed nearly a nice chunk of money in this exchange, too. The caps were going to have to deal with both Lang and Kolzig being UFAs soon, so, instead I'll deal with Khabi being a UFA in 2 years, but get 8 more years of Lecavalier's rights.

As a secondary option, I can trade a guy who's shown flashes of nice play in Zubrus, for a franchise centerman. STRAIGHT UP!

Sweet deal for Washington, pack up your bags and move to another city if your from Tampa.

That's a horrible deal.

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01-14-2004, 11:16 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHockeyMD
First of all, a little disclaimer. Yes, I know they're in the same division so this deal isn't incredibly likely. Also, I'm just throwing this out there for a little discussion. I just want to hear what people have to say. Now for the proposal:

To Washington: Khabibulin, Lecavalier

To Tampa Bay: Kolzig, Lang

I figure even though Khabibulin is doing considerably better than Kolzig, Lang's point scoring would offset that difference, as well as Lecavalier's 'supposed' potential. We all know Lecavalier isn't happy (who gives a damn?) and I was wondering how TB fans would feel about him leaving. Thoughts?
Oughh! That hurts.

Khabibulin> Kölzig (considering his performance this season, gets less money than Olaf, is younger)
Lecavalier > Lang (almost 10 years younger, makes less money, Franchise player in Tampa)

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01-14-2004, 11:28 AM
  #9
DrHockeyMD
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Supposed future franchise player. His attitude hasn't helped any. Lang has been awesome this year on a degrading team. I was just wondering what sort of deal could be made. Are there any additions of players that would make the deal possibly work?

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01-14-2004, 11:44 AM
  #10
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Heavily favors Washington.

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01-14-2004, 12:02 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btmarshall
Both of the proposals are heavily stacked in Washington's favor. Kolzig has played terribly all year and the whole league knows it. As for Zubrus... he has some limited trade value but not nearly on the order of Vincent Lecavalier.
Have you seen what the great vinny has delivered this year??
Lecavilier has 41 games 13 goals 10 assists 23pts.
Zubrus has 38 games 11 goals 12 assists 23pts

That's remarkably similar. The difference is that Vinny is supposed to be a soon to be superstar who had a break out season last year. Now his breakout season looks more like a career year than a step up. Zubrus is supposed to be a talented player that is still looking to realize his potential and is seen as truely paying off some of that promise this year.

Lecavilier has been the focal point player on his team for his entire career and in 100 more games has only 45 more points than the talented but often 3rd or 4th line Zubrus.

Zubrus currently a strong member of both the #1 pp unit and #1 pk unit. While Vinny is back in the dog house. If you asked people that watch these two teams regularly with an open mind, you might find that Zubrus is far more valuable to his team and putting in a more consistant effort than is Lecavilier to his team.

its just a thought, but I am not sure that I would jump so fast to the conclusion that the team that gets Vincent Lecavilier for the next 5 years is certain to get a better player than the team that has Dainius Zubrus.

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01-14-2004, 12:35 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHockeyMD
Supposed future franchise player. His attitude hasn't helped any. Lang has been awesome this year on a degrading team. I was just wondering what sort of deal could be made. Are there any additions of players that would make the deal possibly work?
I think many on these boards will tell you that lang is worth a 3rd round pick because of his age and his salary. they will tell you that lecavilier is worth a load because of his age and his potential. Lang is the better player right now. Vinny is still a promise not realized. His backslide this year says that he may well not ever be a franchise player.

look at the comparison with vinny and zubrus. vinny isnt much better and has gotten much more prime ice time over his career than has zubrus. look at lang's last 5 years and compare them with vinny. that doesnt make vinny look so hot either.

its your call...would you rather have a player you know is good or one that you hope is good? one more thing. Look at Kovulchuk. He is what Vinny was supposed to be and is long overdue in becoming.

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01-14-2004, 01:33 PM
  #13
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I'm with the Tampa fans on this one.

Lang for the Prince is ridiculous, given Lang's age and contract.

Zubrus for the Prince is ridiculous as well. Yeah, he is not scoring as much as Zubrus THIS YEAR but he has already accomplished more than Zubrus in his career and his potential is huge.


Here are Vincent L.'s numbers:

NHL 82 13 15 28 23 -- -- -- -- --
1999-00 Tampa-Bay Lightning NHL 80 25 42 67 43 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Tampa-Bay Lightning NHL 68 23 28 51 66 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Tampa-Bay Lightning NHL 76 20 17 37 61 -- -- -- -- --
2002-03 Tampa-Bay Lightning NHL 80 33 45 78 39 11 3 3 6 22
2003-04 Tampa-Bay Lightning* NHL 41 13 10 23 25



4 consecutive twenty goal seasons - a 67 point season at the age of 19 and a point-per-game season last year. And his supposed "backslide" this season is from 33 goals to a 26 goal pace. Not a huge decline, especially when scoring is down around the NHL this year.


He is easily one of the top two or three young players in the game.


Zubrus' numbers:

Regular Season Playoffs
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 68 8 13 21 22 19 5 4 9 12
1997-98 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 69 8 25 33 42 5 0 1 1 2
1998-99 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 63 3 5 8 25 -- -- -- -- --
1998-99 Montreal Canadiens NHL 17 3 5 8 4 -- -- -- -- --
1999-00 Montreal Canadiens NHL 73 14 28 42 54 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Montreal Canadiens NHL 49 12 12 24 30 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Washington Capitals NHL 12 1 1 2 7 6 0 0 0 2
2001-02 Washington Capitals NHL 71 17 26 43 38 -- -- -- -- --
2002-03 Washington Capitals NHL 63 13 22 35 43 6 2 2 4 4
2003-04 Washington Capitals NHL 38 11 12 23 26


Not a single 20 goal season. He took five years to even get into single digits. At the same age that Prince Vincent was scoring 67 points, Zubrus had a grand total of 8 goals. And, Zubrus did get prime icetime with both Philly and the Habs.

Zubrus' trade value is not even in the same universe, as well as he is playing this year.

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Last edited by Darth Milbury: 01-14-2004 at 02:00 PM.
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01-14-2004, 03:01 PM
  #14
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I'm sorry, DrHockeyMD. I didn't realize you were serious. I couldn't believe you could be serious with that offer. Didn't mean to belittle it. But my opinion of it, since it IS indeed serious, is that it's not grounded in any sort of reality (with conventional trade values in mind or division rivalries in mind).

I think Oceanic broke it down precisely. Every single aspect of the trade is a bonanza for Washington. So in the end, I've gotta ask you ... if you think Lecavalier is a "supposed future franchise player" (in other words, you are disparaging him), then why the hell would you try to figure out how a trade for him would work to your team's benefit?? I love how so many folks here do that - degrade a targeted player in a proposal thread. "Yeah, he sucks. Here's how my team can acquire him."

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01-14-2004, 03:57 PM
  #15
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I am telling you now, that I wouldn't trade either Lang or Zubrus for Lecavilier.
The Caps have enough of that action with Jagr. I think that over the next 5 its likely that Lecavilier will be a better player than Zubrus. Its not so likely that I would put money on it. Vinny has only proven so far that he is a disappointment.
He is following up his breakout season by swimming in the tank most of the season.

I think its very likely that Lecavilier is never going to be a front line player and would have a lot more to offer as a 2nd line center much in the catagory of Robert Lang the last 5 or 6 years.

I think its even money that Lang outscores Lecavilier over the next 5 seasons.
Neither Zubrus or Lang are the distraction that Lecavilier seems to be year in and year out for one reason or another.

I should have said that Zubrus has played 100 more games than Lecavilier with Vinny holding a 45 pt advantage. Given that Zubrus has changed teams 3 times and has spent a lot of time on 3rd and 4th lines and not on top power play units, thats a surprise that he is that close.

The part that makes me laugh is that you think comparing either Lang or Zubrus with Lecavilier is ridiculous. Is it? Vinny has not been that much better than Zubrus and hasnt been better than Lang over the last 4 or 5 years. You talk about
Lecavilier like he is Kovulchuk...now that is ridiculous.

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01-14-2004, 04:01 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
I am telling you now, that I wouldn't trade either Lang or Zubrus for Lecavilier.
The Caps have enough of that action with Jagr. I think that over the next 5 its likely that Lecavilier will be a better player than Zubrus. Its not so likely that I would put money on it. Vinny has only proven so far that he is a disappointment.
He is following up his breakout season by swimming in the tank most of the season.

I think its very likely that Lecavilier is never going to be a front line player and would have a lot more to offer as a 2nd line center much in the catagory of Robert Lang the last 5 or 6 years.

I think its even money that Lang outscores Lecavilier over the next 5 seasons.
Neither Zubrus or Lang are the distraction that Lecavilier seems to be year in and year out for one reason or another.

I should have said that Zubrus has played 100 more games than Lecavilier with Vinny holding a 45 pt advantage. Given that Zubrus has changed teams 3 times and has spent a lot of time on 3rd and 4th lines and not on top power play units, thats a surprise that he is that close.

The part that makes me laugh is that you think comparing either Lang or Zubrus with Lecavilier is ridiculous. Is it? Vinny has not been that much better than Zubrus and hasnt been better than Lang over the last 4 or 5 years. You talk about
Lecavilier like he is Kovulchuk...now that is ridiculous.

How many 60+ point seasons has Zubrus had? How many 30 goal seaons has he had? How many 20 goal seasons has he had?

Answer: NONE.

Comparing him to Lecavilier (or however you spell his name) is ludicrous. Obviously, they are much different kinds of players, but CAP fans would be dancing in the streets if they could get the Prince for those players.

You aren't being very balanced here. Vincent is worth a lot more than those guys on the trade market, and you know it. Lang has had a great seasons, and Zubrus looks to be breaking though. But, the comparison is still way, way, way off.

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01-14-2004, 04:06 PM
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Trade will never ever happen as both are division rivals. Lightning would NEVER do this in a million times. Txpd, seriously youre making yourself look foolish. You wouldnt trade Danius Zubrus for Vincent Lecavalier? Are you kidding? Zubrus has yet to hit 20 goals where Lecavalier has done it 4 times already and will probably do it again this year. You wouldnt trade Robert Lang who you could lose for nothing after the season for a 10 year younger Lecavalier who has yet to hit his prime? You can point to Lang's stats but look at the talent hes played with in Pittsburgh and Washington and look at the talent Lecavalier has had in Tampa.

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01-14-2004, 04:08 PM
  #18
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txpd: There isn't a GM in the league who values Zubrus more than Lecavalier, not on a value/performance basis, and not on a salary basis, and certainly not on an age basis. To argue otherwise is, frankly, to lean rather to the homer view of player value.

I do happen to think Zubrus is improving, gradually, but he's in his eighth NHL season and he's going to be a UFA soon enough. Someone other than the Caps is going to reap the fruits of the infinite patience that the Flyers, Canadiens and Capitals have shown, I think. Lecavalier is coming along, and is having a rocky year thus far, but is much younger and far more talented. His team will possess his rights for far longer and get some good years before his UFA period kicks in, even if the UFA age is lowered in the next labor agreement.

 
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01-14-2004, 04:41 PM
  #19
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Lecavalier - 4 straight 20-goal seasons, career-high 78 points
Zubrus - 0 (zero) 20-goal season ... EVER, career-high 43 points

Ridiculous.
--------------------
Lecavalier - Age: 23, Salary: $2.65 million
Lang - Age: 33, Salary: $5 million

Ridiculous.
--------------------
Conclusion: It's entirely pointless to discuss a Lecavalier trade with a fan of a division rival.

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01-14-2004, 04:43 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolthed
I'm sorry, DrHockeyMD. I didn't realize you were serious. I couldn't believe you could be serious with that offer. Didn't mean to belittle it. But my opinion of it, since it IS indeed serious, is that it's not grounded in any sort of reality (with conventional trade values in mind or division rivalries in mind).

I think Oceanic broke it down precisely. Every single aspect of the trade is a bonanza for Washington. So in the end, I've gotta ask you ... if you think Lecavalier is a "supposed future franchise player" (in other words, you are disparaging him), then why the hell would you try to figure out how a trade for him would work to your team's benefit?? I love how so many folks here do that - degrade a targeted player in a proposal thread. "Yeah, he sucks. Here's how my team can acquire him."
I live in St. Louis. I don't watch Washington Capitals games, nor do I watch Tampa Bay games. I find them both utterly boring. As I said in the disclaimer, I was merely seeing what people thought of the proposal and what would be needed [if they chose it] to make the deal work. That's all. So no, I was not degrading him because I want "my team" to get him. It's just that I believe that TB is not working out for him and that would degrade his trading value significantly since teams would obviously not be willing to pick him up for his 'SUPPOSED' potential value. Good try, but back to the smog of LA you go.

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01-14-2004, 04:56 PM
  #21
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It's just that I believe that TB is not working out for him and that would degrade his trading value significantly ...
There's the problem. You're premise is off-base.

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01-14-2004, 05:20 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHockeyMD
Only comments like yours should be locked. Can I please get some real discussion here?
Perhaps start with a real suggestion as well, That aside no way in hell a deal like that will go thru.

Why dont you ask for a couple 1st rounders as well

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01-14-2004, 05:27 PM
  #23
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I have a suggestion that might work just as well here for the caps


To Detroit Lang and zubrus

To WAS Datsyuk and Zetterberg


About as fair as the Vinny proposal

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01-14-2004, 05:33 PM
  #24
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Oh, i know that my opinion isn't valued on this issue. I think that if you are waiting for Vincent Lecavilier to become a franchise player, you will be waiting a long time.

Vincent is coming along? Coming along where? he has 23 pts this year. pacing for 46 pts two years after a 37pt season. that makes the 78 pts season last year look like the fluke, not the 37 pts season. he has a 30 goal season, but has not built on it. in fact he has regressed. 28pts, 67pts, 52pts, 37pts, 78pts, 23pts in half a season. He is just plain erratic.

Someone said he is much younger than Danius Zubrus? Zubrus was born 6.78 and Vincent 4.80. Does 22 months count as MUCH YOUNGER???

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01-14-2004, 07:08 PM
  #25
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I couldn't agree with you more txpd.

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