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Lundqvist vs Brodeur & NJD

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Old
11-16-2007, 01:17 AM
  #76
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I want the Rangers fans to explain the Vezina Brodeur won with a defense minus Stevens and Niedermayer. Its unreal, did you guys start watching hockey yesterday?

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11-16-2007, 02:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
1) Brodeur IS a good goalie.
2) The devils were STILL a very good defensive "team". (emphasis on team)
3) When you spend your whole youth playing behind good defensive teams it helps groom your confidence in the long run. Do you really think Brodeur would have the same confidence in his abilities today if he started his career in Chicago?
Marty averaged over 30 shots against per night. If you're going to then call into question what the quality of shots may have been....then I think you're grasping a little bit here bro. And as far as Marty's confidence being groomed...by that thinking Luongo's confidence should be shot to hell right now after his seasons in Florida.

If Lundqvist play's behind this Rangers defense for years to come, can we pin his success in his later years on the confidence he built from the defense he once had??

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11-16-2007, 02:14 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
1) Brodeur IS a good goalie.
You could have stopped there.

I don't understand why it is so hard to admit that Marty is a great goalie. They guy is a first ballet HOF'er. He is closing in on 500 wins.

Sure being in a defensive system helps, but you can't attribute all of his success on it.

its getting sad guys, seriously. Give credit where credit is due.

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Old
11-16-2007, 03:06 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
Luongo's confidence has been shot many a time but he prevailed. Unfortunately you must understand that not all goalies do. For every Roberto Luongo there' s a Jim Carey...for every Wayne Gretzky there's an Alexander Daigle ect. All I am doing is taking the position that success breeds confidence...which it does.

By your thinking should we assume that Marty would have followed the same path to greatness behind a different team? Because according to you NJ's defense played a limited role in Marty's development/success, it was all Marty.
I never said "NJ's defense played a limited role in Marty's success, it was all Marty" first of all....

Second of all your statement of "unfortunately you must understand that not all goalies do (prevail post-inept defensive team)" still proves nothing. It doesn't disprove at all that Brodeur would not have "prevailed" the same as you say Luongo has.

You posed the question "would Brodeur have the same confidence in his abilities today if he started his career in Chicago?" Now even though since starting his career in Florida, Luongo has proven to have great confidence in his abilities in Vancouver; you're trying to say Marty may have been different. Considering Luongo "prevailed" the negative effect to his confidence that Florida had...the answer to your question is no, there's simply no reason to believe Brodeur would not have prevailed in much the same fashion had he started his career with Chicago (or any other poor defensive team, so as not to single Chicago out.)

...your suggestion that Martin Brodeur could have fallen the way of Daigle and Jim Carey should be where this ends anyway. Jim Carey had some success early in his career as it is. Winning 35+ games, numerous shutouts, g.a.a of around 2.1, 2.2 and apparently playing behind a solid defensive team too (only averaged about 20,21,22 shots per game most seasons he played)...apparently it didn't lead to too much success down the road.

(however, I guess your responce does mean we can pin Lundqvist's success in his later years on the confidence he built from the defense he once had)

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11-16-2007, 05:15 AM
  #80
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right now, the only one goalie (from elite 4 last year) that is playing at that level is Henrik.

He's even taken it up a whole notch whereas Luongo and especially Broduer have looked human this year. They're still brilliant goalies but i think MB has peaked.

Right now, Henrik is the best in the NHL... i dont think thats a biased opinion either.

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11-16-2007, 05:35 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
Truthfully AR, do you really think that's what I am suggesting or our just trying to be cute here?

And I fail to understand how Brodeur benefited the most from clutching and grabbing when he's well documented that the Devils didn't so this no more than anyone else - because everyone did it -and in fact they were one of the most disciplined teams in the league.

Brodeur benefited from a great defensive system that was built around him, I really don't see them having the same success with another goalie just because Brodeur's style is so unorthodox that it would be hard to get another goalie to do the job he did with the Devils.
I have to disagree. Unfortunately because he was never tested because of the system, the NJD never had the need to play a backup. People point to shots, 30 shots on goal as an average for Marty, but what they fail to point out was the lack of quality shots there were in those 30. You know as well as I do that he faces shallow and bad angle shots all the time and really anyone could stop those if they are a professional goalie. Hell even Ahonen could have had good numbers playing in that system.

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Old
11-16-2007, 07:01 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
1) Brodeur IS a good goalie.
2) The devils were STILL a very good defensive "team". (emphasis on team)
3) When you spend your whole youth playing behind good defensive teams it helps groom your confidence in the long run. Do you really think Brodeur would have the same confidence in his abilities today if he started his career in Chicago?
The Devils are a good defensive team, this year? Apparently you haven't been watching them. They might have one of the worst defenses in the league. Motteau, Oduya, Rachunek, Brookbank?

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11-16-2007, 07:50 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DevilSinceDayOne View Post
The Devils are a good defensive team, this year? Apparently you haven't been watching them. They might have one of the worst defenses in the league. Motteau, Oduya, Rachunek, Brookbank?
they're shocking. That may be the worst 4some in all the league. " guys not good enough for our D (mottau and KR) a D that many experts, pre-season - didnt rate highly a guy that was placed on waivers multiple times (Brookbank) and a guy that couldnt get to the NHl til his mid/late 20's (Oduya)........

its a terrible D and why i tipped them to miss the playoffs. They better hope Matthew Corrente (their best D prospect) pans out...

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11-16-2007, 11:23 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ILikeItVeryMuch View Post
Brodeur won a Vezina and finished second in Vezina voting in two straight years without Stevens/Niedermeyer and Daneyko. I know you guys are excited about your goalie who has yet to achieve 10% of what Brodeur has earned, but come on now. Show some respect to the guy who will own just about every goaltending record.
Again, you are the same fans who say Brodeur dives when you have ****ing Greg Louganis (Avery) on your team, so why do I even bother.
Hey, there are some of us who can respect everything that Brodeur's accomplished while still hating him for the bush-league dives he's taken throughout his career.

And lest we forget, it was MARTY who flopped to the ice when he and Avery had their little shoving match last year, and even the Devils' announcers said so.

But saying that Brodeur isn't great because of the system he played in is as pathetic as the Devs fans' excuses that Henrik's pads are oversized even though there's a specific rule to regulate goalie's pads. Can we please, for once, be the bigger men (or women) here?


Last edited by clmetsfan: 11-16-2007 at 12:39 PM.
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11-16-2007, 11:38 AM
  #85
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Not to diminish anything Brodeur has done during a wonderful career, the fact of the matter is I'd rather have Hank in net for THIS SEASON than Marty.

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11-16-2007, 11:45 AM
  #86
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I think Jonathon put it best. Yes, his stats benefited from the team he played behind.

But someone still needs to make those saves. A defensive system doesn't mean anything on a breakway, or when he makes a sprawling save.

Come on, get off it.

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11-16-2007, 12:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
I have to disagree. Unfortunately because he was never tested because of the system, the NJD never had the need to play a backup. People point to shots, 30 shots on goal as an average for Marty, but what they fail to point out was the lack of quality shots there were in those 30. You know as well as I do that he faces shallow and bad angle shots all the time and really anyone could stop those if they are a professional goalie. Hell even Ahonen could have had good numbers playing in that system.
AR you are most comparable to Rover on the HF boards as one of the top Brodeur haters.

Things that have been said in this thread can be said about any goalie in this league, it can even be said for Lundqvist this year(He's been very very very solid this year and there is nothing i can say or anybody can say to limit what he's done but you can't say it's him 100%). Lundqvist this year is getting the benefit of the bad angle shots, like i said things that some here have bashed Marty for can be said for mostly any goalie in this league INCLUDING Lundqvist. You can't discredit 500 wins people.

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11-16-2007, 05:47 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
1) Brodeur IS a good goalie.
A Hall of Fame goalie to be exact.

Quote:
2) The devils were STILL a very good defensive "team". (emphasis on team)
They were.

Quote:
3) When you spend your whole youth playing behind good defensive teams it helps groom your confidence in the long run. Do you really think Brodeur would have the same confidence in his abilities today if he started his career in Chicago?
Don't you think that if Brodeur had started his career in Chicago that the Blackhawks would have built their team around him as the Devils did.

It's a pretty good idea to build your team around your best player, especially if that player is a goaltender. It seems some people are saying that any goalie could have done what Brodeur did in that system. Guess what. That system wouldn't have existed without Brodeur in net. I mean, do you think if the Devils had Tommy Soderstrom instead of Martin Brodeur that they would have built up a defensive powerhouse around Soderstrom? Give me a break.

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11-16-2007, 05:49 PM
  #89
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Lundqvist will never be the goalie Brodeur is.

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11-16-2007, 05:51 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by awesome1612 View Post
Lundqvist will never be the goalie Brodeur is.
I would never say that.

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11-16-2007, 07:37 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Agent 008 View Post
So you think the Devils would have passed on Scott Niedermayer had they not drafted Brodeur a year earlier? That's crazy. The Devils acquired Scott Stevens at a time when Chris Terreri was the starting goalie. Seriously.
They would have never acquired Stevens if they didn't have Marty in the system. They probably would have taken the Blues offer of Curtis Joseph and Brind'Amour but because they had Brodeur in the system they had no need for a goaltender and went after Stevens.

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11-16-2007, 07:41 PM
  #92
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Any comments diminishing Brodeurs accomplishments are embarrassing honestly.

The guy has been at the top of his game for pretty much his entire career, that kind of consistency is not a fluke or a product of the system.

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11-16-2007, 07:43 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
Any comments diminishing Brodeurs accomplishments are embarrassing honestly.
Couldn't agree more, MU. The guy is going to go down in history as arguably the greatest goalie of all time. Trying to diminish him is not worthy.

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11-16-2007, 07:47 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by awesome1612 View Post
Lundqvist will never be the goalie Brodeur is.
I love it when people play psychic. Man you are cool, you can make bold statements!

What a unique talent.

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11-16-2007, 07:49 PM
  #95
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Couldn't agree more, MU. The guy is going to go down in history as arguably the greatest goalie of all time. Trying to diminish him is not worthy.
One of the greatest for sure, but I doubt he will be considered the best ever. Roy and Hasek are a step ahead of him imo

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11-16-2007, 10:08 PM
  #96
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One of the greatest for sure, but I doubt he will be considered the best ever. Roy and Hasek are a step ahead of him imo
Semantics. A very strong case can be made for Brodeur as the best ever. Personally I'd put him at #2 behind Roy but ahead of Hasek.

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11-16-2007, 10:28 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
Semantics. A very strong case can be made for Brodeur as the best ever. Personally I'd put him at #2 behind Roy but ahead of Hasek.
Personally, I would put all three, well maybe not Roy, behind Ken Dryden. My top 5 might be:

Dryden
Roy
Broduer
Smith
Hasek

And I'm sure if I thought hard enough there'd be more between Smith and Hasek. I mean, where do Bill Ranford, Jacques Plante, Fuhr, Gump Worsley all fit in?

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11-17-2007, 07:12 AM
  #98
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Personally, I would put all three, well maybe not Roy, behind Ken Dryden. My top 5 might be:

Dryden
Roy
Broduer
Smith
Hasek

And I'm sure if I thought hard enough there'd be more between Smith and Hasek. I mean, where do Bill Ranford, Jacques Plante, Fuhr, Gump Worsley all fit in?
One guy I left off who really was a good goalie, Glenn Hall. He played like 6-7 straight full seasons, every minute of every game. At age 40 he had a 2.4 GAA playing for the Blues. A standup goalie who excelled at playing his angles.

Another guy has to be Plante. 6 in 7 years and 7 total Vezina Trophy. The guy played until he was 46! Played 40 games his last year.

As far as your list goes how can Brodeur be ahead of Hasek? Head to head Hasek dominated and won far more Vezinas than Brodeur, 6-2.

Here's my top 5 list:
Hasek
K Dryden
Parent
Plante
Hall

What do these 3 goalies have in common:
Richard Sevigny
Michel "Bunny" Larocque
Denis Herron

They were the Canaiens goalies after Dryden retired. They won the Vezina playing behind Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Langway, Engblom. Systems do help a goalie and so too does having a quality set of defenders in front of you. Great teams combine both, a good goalie makes the defense look good and a good defense makes a goalie look good. Without both you have an average defense. Defense is not just a goalie, but a goalie can cover some severe short comings on the backline, but a bad backline can also expose a goalie.

Hasek played on some poor defensive teams, he was the defense. They rallied around him and on countless occassions he was the primary difference in games. Hall played on a offensive powerhouse Chicago Blackhawk team. Like Hasek he was the literal last line of defense.

Dryden was just a rock. He played in front of a system much like Brodeur has his whole career, save for one difference, the Canadiens did not play an all exclusive trap, nor hook, hold and interfer the way NJ did during their hay day. Dryden was the backbone of those teams as they won cup after cup. They and the Gretzky / Messier Edonton team were the greatest teams I watched.

Plante was the Roy of his day. Simply a great goaltender, moody like Roy too. Since he was the first, he's better in my book.

Parent was in his prime when a misfortunate accident ended his career. More than Clarke and the goons that played for Philly he was the true reason for their success.

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Old
11-17-2007, 07:20 AM
  #99
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One name that gets lost in all this is Belfour... Yes, behind Brodeur and Roy, but nonetheless AT LEAST a top 10

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11-17-2007, 02:02 PM
  #100
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One name that gets lost in all this is Belfour... Yes, behind Brodeur and Roy, but nonetheless AT LEAST a top 10
Andy Moog?

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