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Lundqvist vs Brodeur & NJD

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Old
11-17-2007, 03:47 PM
  #101
clmetsfan
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I put Brodeur ahead of Hasek for the same reason that I put Brady and Montana ahead of Favre. Fewer individual awards, more titles. Yes, titles are a team achievement, but if I have to win one game, I'm taking Brodeur in his prime over Hasek in his prime.

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11-17-2007, 10:39 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
I put Brodeur ahead of Hasek for the same reason that I put Brady and Montana ahead of Favre. Fewer individual awards, more titles. Yes, titles are a team achievement, but if I have to win one game, I'm taking Brodeur in his prime over Hasek in his prime.
That's nice to know who your fav footbal QBs are, a little bit different in hockey.
Marty is showing how good he is with a bad defense in front of him. Hasek stoned teams with a poor defense in front of him. Titles are a team award not matter what kind of slant or spin you try to puy on it.

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11-18-2007, 12:15 PM
  #103
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That's nice to know who your fav footbal QBs are, a little bit different in hockey.
Marty is showing how good he is with a bad defense in front of him. Hasek stoned teams with a poor defense in front of him. Titles are a team award not matter what kind of slant or spin you try to puy on it.
His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

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11-18-2007, 01:00 PM
  #104
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His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
They may have pretty much the same d (minus Rafalski,White) but they're playing a more aggressive and offensive style, Sutter's style and Broduer's numbers have suffered because of it.

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11-18-2007, 01:17 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
His defense last year was not much better than this years and much worse when we have the Big Three back there and he still won the Vienza, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
I love have you guys will disrespect the whole team in defense of Flounder. If you think that White & Raffy are equal to the pylons you have have back there now there is no sense at all in discussing this any further.

P.S. Your point doesn't take on any more validity by posting it numerous times. As far as Marty's Vezina last year goes there was plenty of comp for the prize and I'm sure that split the vote. Also there has to be the sympathy for Marty for having been beaten out of it so many times by either Hasek or Roy and I'm sure many voters felt they should give him one beacuse of that.

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11-18-2007, 01:39 PM
  #106
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I love have you guys will disrespect the whole team in defense of Flounder. If you think that White & Raffy are equal to the pylons you have have back there now there is no sense at all in discussing this any further.

P.S. Your point doesn't take on any more validity by posting it numerous times. As far as Marty's Vezina last year goes there was plenty of comp for the prize and I'm sure that split the vote. Also there has to be the sympathy for Marty for having been beaten out of it so many times by either Hasek or Roy and I'm sure many voters felt they should give him one beacuse of that.
Actually, those "pylons" have been playing much better of late, but the fact is Brodeur had a great season last year without Stevens, Neidermeyer and Daneyko and with a defensive corp that was no where near the leagues best, even with Rafalski and White.

And you really think I duped that one post that many times on purpose.

I mean com'on man, you are nitpicking here, we had a slight problem with our server before.

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11-18-2007, 05:57 PM
  #107
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Actually, those "pylons" have been playing much better of late, but the fact is Brodeur had a great season last year without Stevens, Neidermeyer and Daneyko and with a defensive corp that was no where near the leagues best, even with Rafalski and White.

And you really think I duped that one post that many times on purpose.

I mean com'on man, you are nitpicking here, we had a slight problem with our server before.
Let it go Lou, The Flounder ain't gettin any respect on this board. He is what he is. A better than average goalie made to look HOFish by the style his team played in front of him.

Couple of questions on the Rock though, I hear many complaints about the size of the seats, do you know if the arm rest that seperates seats folds up? If so, that is one answer as to why they made the seats so narrow, if the seat next to you is empty you can just fold it up and spread out.

The ice, is it still a problem? I still see the puck bouncing like crazy. Has it been warm on most game nights? If it has and combined with all the people in the building that could explain why the ice seems to be a problem.

Do you like the idea of Sutter bad mouthing veteran players in the papers? Do you think it is going to be an ongoing problem and cause a problem? Personally I think Lou is married to the guy because he's made far too many coaching changes over the last few years. If it continues, and we all the history of this group of players quitting on a coach, could you see this as the final dismantling of the core group that is left from the cup years?

I'll be interested to hear what your thoughts are. Just don't look for any love for Brodiver on here, after all were not family

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11-18-2007, 06:42 PM
  #108
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I'll be interested to hear what your thoughts are.
I think your more interested in baiting me in this thread more than you are with what my thoughts are, so if it's all the same I think I'll just pass, thank you.

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11-18-2007, 07:17 PM
  #109
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I think your more interested in baiting me in this thread more than you are with what my thoughts are, so if it's all the same I think I'll just pass, thank you.
Lou. is it true that the lower level tickets come with free food? There is a discussion over on Ro's board about that. If true that would make those tickets even more appealing. Any truth about that? Or do you have to have tixs to a box?

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11-18-2007, 07:22 PM
  #110
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Brodeur to me will deservingly go into the HOF probably on the first ballot. Not going to argue that having the likes of Stevens, Niedermayer and a variety of other good to great d-men in front of him and a system that was built on defense first and tactically made its mark from trapping and running interference did not play out to his great benefit. He's won--and won three Stanley Cups--what else needs to be said?--for a 30 team league--that's a big deal. Where the Devils are now though doesn't look like all that great a place--their defense is nowhere near as good as it has been. Not to get me wrong Martin is a good player but depending on him as your go to man is a step down from Rafalski and a big step down from Niedermayer. There is also an aging core of players including Brodeur who seems to have a lost a little something in the last year or so only partially offset by the likes of great young players like Zajac and Parise. Sutter I'm not sure will be a good fit either. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a lot of locker room conflict for them this year. I may be wrong as far as thinking the Devils have their work cut out for them this season just to make the playoffs--as they have a trademark for being resilient but really I think they're not making it this time around and maybe for the next couple to few years.

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11-19-2007, 05:33 AM
  #111
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Brodeur to me will deservingly go into the HOF probably on the first ballot. Not going to argue that having the likes of Stevens, Niedermayer and a variety of other good to great d-men in front of him and a system that was built on defense first and tactically made its mark from trapping and running interference did not play out to his great benefit. He's won--and won three Stanley Cups--what else needs to be said?--for a 30 team league--that's a big deal. Where the Devils are now though doesn't look like all that great a place--their defense is nowhere near as good as it has been. Not to get me wrong Martin is a good player but depending on him as your go to man is a step down from Rafalski and a big step down from Niedermayer. There is also an aging core of players including Brodeur who seems to have a lost a little something in the last year or so only partially offset by the likes of great young players like Zajac and Parise. Sutter I'm not sure will be a good fit either. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a lot of locker room conflict for them this year. I may be wrong as far as thinking the Devils have their work cut out for them this season just to make the playoffs--as they have a trademark for being resilient but really I think they're not making it this time around and maybe for the next couple to few years.
We had issues because we had issues in goal, the devils still have Flounder. Shouldn't he compensate for the D? Hasek did it in Buffalo, why can't Flounder? Isn't this time for a HOFer to step up and lead?

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11-19-2007, 07:05 AM
  #112
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We had issues because we had issues in goal, the devils still have Flounder. Shouldn't he compensate for the D? Hasek did it in Buffalo, why can't Flounder? Isn't this time for a HOFer to step up and lead?
Look guy, Brodeur is a great keeper, arguably the best ever, you loose all your credibility by calling him names and pointing out minor details. if you cant admit this, then you simply havent watched him play, he has single handedly beaten the rangers, many times in the past...

Take a page from some of your classy fellow rangers fans, and admit he deserves every ounce of praise he receives, by god he has earnt it.

Oh and btw, henrik is a great keeper, and i can see him winning the vezina this year.... Unless marty has finally turned the corner

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11-19-2007, 07:49 AM
  #113
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We had issues because we had issues in goal, the devils still have Flounder. Shouldn't he compensate for the D? Hasek did it in Buffalo, why can't Flounder? Isn't this time for a HOFer to step up and lead?
Martin is now 35. What you're asking is if an aging once elite goalie--who is still very good can carry an entire team and I don't think he's up to it. Not with the defense they have. Paul Martin is a good player but he's in no way, shape or form Scott Niedermayer who is the player they miss more than any other. When Niedermayer left them the writing went up on the wall for their prospects to really go anywhere for the next several seasons. Oduya might be a good player, Greene may turn into a good player but what I see is a very mediocre group on defense with too many long term and too expensive contracts to aging players. Martin is signed until he's 40. Elias will be closing in on that age when his current contract expires. White and Langenbrunner also too long. They are good players--they are not the kind of players though you lock up for 5-6-7 year contracts. To look at the Rangers in that respect--the Drury contract is too long. We were in a bind needing two offensive centers. Not arguing that if you believe your team can make some noise you do what you have to do--we were in a bind and we take the risk that Drury 6 or so years from now will still be an effective player. That contract though is what you want to give to Lundqvist and maybe he will get that. Gomez is not as bad because he'll be in the 33 range when it expires. The contract covers what should be his prime.

The Brodeur/Devils situation to me compares to our last years of Messier. The team looks for leadership and unites around the captain. The boat sinks anyway. He wasn't what he once was--they surround him with has beens and never will bes. Out of desperation we gutted our prospect pipeline to bring in another wave of has beens. The identity and makeup of the team stagnates. Not enough good young players in the system. Nobody to take over the leadership of the team and forge a new identity. That was one of our problems. The Devils as currently concocted need to look to start constructing their team around Zajac and Parise. They are their future. Brodeur's days are numbered as an effective force. He may give them a couple--three more really good years whether they make the playoffs or not. Even so they have a lot of rebuilding to do. And again I'll say that I'm not sure Sutter is the guy to do it.

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11-19-2007, 08:10 AM
  #114
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Martin is now 35. What you're asking is if an aging once elite goalie--who is still very good can carry an entire team and I don't think he's up to it. Not with the defense they have. Paul Martin is a good player but he's in no way, shape or form Scott Niedermayer who is the player they miss more than any other. When Niedermayer left them the writing went up on the wall for their prospects to really go anywhere for the next several seasons. Oduya might be a good player, Greene may turn into a good player but what I see is a very mediocre group on defense with too many long term and too expensive contracts to aging players. Martin is signed until he's 40. Elias will be closing in on that age when his current contract expires. White and Langenbrunner also too long. They are good players--they are not the kind of players though you lock up for 5-6-7 year contracts. To look at the Rangers in that respect--the Drury contract is too long. We were in a bind needing two offensive centers. Not arguing that if you believe your team can make some noise you do what you have to do--we were in a bind and we take the risk that Drury 6 or so years from now will still be an effective player. That contract though is what you want to give to Lundqvist and maybe he will get that. Gomez is not as bad because he'll be in the 33 range when it expires. The contract covers what should be his prime.

The Brodeur/Devils situation to me compares to our last years of Messier. The team looks for leadership and unites around the captain. The boat sinks anyway. He wasn't what he once was--they surround him with has beens and never will bes. Out of desperation we gutted our prospect pipeline to bring in another wave of has beens. The identity and makeup of the team stagnates. Not enough good young players in the system. Nobody to take over the leadership of the team and forge a new identity. That was one of our problems. The Devils as currently concocted need to look to start constructing their team around Zajac and Parise. They are their future. Brodeur's days are numbered as an effective force. He may give them a couple--three more really good years whether they make the playoffs or not. Even so they have a lot of rebuilding to do. And again I'll say that I'm not sure Sutter is the guy to do it.
Agree with all of it. Brodeur will be closer to 40 than 30 by the end of the season. He's played no few than 70 games every season for the past 10 years. Sometimes, players get old sooner than your like. Maybe it's just one bad season. Or maybe he's simply running out of gas. Either way, I'm not quite ready to sound the death knell for Marty.

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11-19-2007, 08:48 AM
  #115
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The team Brodeur is playing behind RIGHT NOW is better than almost every Caps team that Kolzig has played behind. AND even this season, i'd take NJ's team with Kolzig over the Caps with Brodeur. AND KOLZIG IS FREAKING OLDER and played a lot of time in the freaking ECHL where i am sure he didn't get physically worn out! SARCASM!

NJ fans...i can understand the almost complete blindness to this...the current version of NJ certainly looks AHL to you guys cause you saw such an amazing depth of talent for years! The salary cap makes it a lot more difficult to keep the solid d-men for depth...

And as for the difference between this year and last...and the one before that...
let's look at the devs and Brodeur...
- hmmm...many years with Stevens and Nieds...unbelievably tough...easily the best team in the EAST and one of the best in the NHL (Colorado and Detroit, also. Dallas and even Philly nudged into this group some...).
- year before lockout - Stevens goes out mid-season and Brodeur faulters greatly, then the defense adjusts and Brodeur becomes pretty tight, 1st round exit in the playoffs.
- season after lockout - takes til midseason and the return of elias before the team gets solid. oh yeah, lots of D adjustments...NJ outted in the 2nd round of the playoffs.
- last season - early troubles...midseason adjustments - high level of defensive solidity, Brodeur shines. 2nd round exit again.
- lose Rafalski and Gomez...major contributors to the team (the Stanley Cup cores gets more dissolved...) the defense is having a lot more troubles...adjusting but less depth. None who can really transition the puck well from d-zone to attack (Gomez and Rafalski). BRODEUR IS REALLY HAVING Trouble....

To say it was all Nieds and Stevens...that is certainly overstated. BUT this devils team right now (as would most any team in the NHL right now) would be a true high odds favorite if they had those two guys added to their defense. Anaheim is a great testament to that.

BUT the truth is...there was a core of players that bought into the system and that core is farther removed now than ever and Brodeur's "GREATNESS" is not as noticable.

Anyway, look at Lundqvist now...very similar in that the defense and core players are buying/have bought into the system...his numbers have been GREAT since about mid-season last year LARGELY due to the way the TEAM has been playing in front of him.


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11-19-2007, 10:11 AM
  #116
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Agree with all of it. Brodeur will be closer to 40 than 30 by the end of the season. He's played no few than 70 games every season for the past 10 years. Sometimes, players get old sooner than your like. Maybe it's just one bad season. Or maybe he's simply running out of gas. Either way, I'm not quite ready to sound the death knell for Marty.
I expect the Devils are going to get solid goaltending for a season or two anyway but it's not going to be enough to make them a serious contender let alone even a playoff team for the future if they can't reshape their defense. I wonder how long Sutter will put up with .500 hockey or worse--just how much leeway Lou will give him--because if it just comes down to firing another coach and taking over the reins himself again it's just more of the same old--same old. Sutter if he stays is going to expect Elias and Brodeur to carry the weight of the team offensively and defensively and if Elias doesn't others will be given more responsibility as there aren't really any good options in goal past Brodeur. Elias and Gionta working without Gomez are about as lost as Jagr has been playing with Gomez. The Rangers have adjusted for that though because despite not having any big names on their D the team has learned to play well defensively in front of Lundqvist who IMO is just about as good a goalie (and still young--maybe improving) as there is in the league and because they are getting better production diversifying their best offensive players throughout their lineup--making it impossible to target all their offensive threats. Even with all that they are not firing on all cylinders and after 20 games one has to wonder why?--whether it's something that will come with time?--I would think so but...In any case, if the offense ever does start clicking and the defense and Lundqvist continue to play like they are--the team then might be seen as a legit cup worthy contender. Above and beyond that all we have a number of young players both on the team and in the pipeline that bodes very well for our future.

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11-19-2007, 02:18 PM
  #117
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The King has yet to start 70 games in a season or make it past the second round of the playoffs.

This is my problem with Ranger fans (and most NYC teams fans) not all but a few. They get really excited quickly (free agents, stats, etc.) and seem to forget the past easily. Which results in senseless arguments about how they have the greatest players/team in all of sports especially the metro area. Guys relax, a good season is just that a good season. It takes 10+ to make a HOF career. Henrik's a good goalie and he's playing at an elite level but he has a long way to go. Just like the Rangers, they are playing well now but have a long way to go. Remember '05-'06.

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11-19-2007, 02:37 PM
  #118
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The King has yet to start 70 games in a season or make it past the second round of the playoffs.
Fundamentally, I agree with your post, but you should check you stats first. Henrik played 70 (80 including the POs) games last year, and 53 (+9 Olympic games and 3 POs) in a season where he started out as the back-up to Kevin Weekes. He's on pace to start 76 this year, although I expect that will whittle down to 70-72.

We're excited because for the first time since Richter, and the first time since Richter & Marty went head-to-head, we've got a world-class goalie that is stealing some of that spotlight from Marty. If DP plays as well as he can, and stays healthy, the Lunqvist/DP rivalry could be as much fun as the Richter/Brodeur years.

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11-19-2007, 06:43 PM
  #119
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We're excited because for the first time since Richter, and the first time since Richter & Marty went head-to-head, we've got a world-class goalie that is stealing some of that spotlight from Marty. If DP plays as well as he can, and stays healthy, the Lunqvist/DP rivalry could be as much fun as the Richter/Brodeur years.
Well isn't that the truth.

Isn't that the reason that Rangerfans are so protective about S:t Hank?

Not saying that it's bad, I just recognise it from another Hank team

Now, just chain the moron to his crossbar ...

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11-19-2007, 07:52 PM
  #120
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The King has yet to start 70 games in a season or make it past the second round of the playoffs.

This is my problem with Ranger fans (and most NYC teams fans) not all but a few. They get really excited quickly (free agents, stats, etc.) and seem to forget the past easily. Which results in senseless arguments about how they have the greatest players/team in all of sports especially the metro area. Guys relax, a good season is just that a good season. It takes 10+ to make a HOF career. Henrik's a good goalie and he's playing at an elite level but he has a long way to go. Just like the Rangers, they are playing well now but have a long way to go. Remember '05-'06.
You know what I really like about other fans that come on here and post stuff about the NYRs? They seldom know jack! Why don't you look up some facts before you post. Compare Lundqvist career stats thus far to any goalie currently in the league and tell us whose better? Compare his career thus far to some goalies in the HOF and tell us whose had a better start. Excited? Damn right! If you can't see the elite quality in Lundqvist we can't help you.

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11-19-2007, 08:08 PM
  #121
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Anyone know what the King's record is vs NJ & the Diver? Be interesting to see. Save for the playoffs where Henrik was playing on one leg. I bet The King has a winning record and a better GAA / SV% in head to head.
You can't compare some who's 35 vs some one who's 25 or 26.

Therefore, The Queen has to play 70+games, and past the second round of playoff. He hasn't done that, were Brodeur have done that with 3Stanley Cups(One at... 23years old.)

I can understand that the Queen is still young, but.. Can we just stop those comparaisons?


Its like comparing Ben Roethlisberger(Steelers QB) vs Carson Palmer(Cincinnati bengals QB.)

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11-19-2007, 08:50 PM
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You can't compare some who's 35 vs some one who's 25 or 26.

Therefore, The Queen has to play 70+games, and past the second round of playoff. He hasn't done that, were Brodeur have done that with 3Stanley Cups(One at... 23years old.)

I can understand that the Queen is still young, but.. Can we just stop those comparaisons?


Its like comparing Ben Roethlisberger(Steelers QB) vs Carson Palmer(Cincinnati bengals QB.)
Are you really that friggin dense? Again, it would be nice of you looked up the facts, but apparently you couldn't comprehend that sentence. Last year, 2006-07 Lundqvist played 80 games, 70 regular season, 10 playoffs. Flounder didn't play 70 games or more until his 3rd year! 3rd year!

If Marty won all those cups how come he hasn't won the Conn Smythe Trophy? The losing goalie beat him out one year! A defenseman won another year and a forward won the other. Why the defenseman win? He's a product of their system! Want more proof? How many Vezina Trophies has he won? 2. He's won zero when 2 of the best goalies, Hasek & Roy were playing and at the top of their games. The other times they didn't win he lost out to the likes of Jim Carey, Olaf Kolzig and Jose Theodore! HOFers all How did he lose out to them? Want to know? The people who vote know he's a product of the system. No Conn Smythe, Vezina when Hasek was hurt and Roy retired!

Come back and talk when he beats us in the playoffs with healthy goalie!

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11-19-2007, 09:00 PM
  #123
ILikeItVeryMuch*
 
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Brodeur deserved the Conn Smythe in 2003, he had better stats than Giguere in the playoffs. How do you people explain him winning a Vezina without Stevens and Niedermayer? You just cant get over yourselves to give credit to "little brother" who has had more success over the last 10 years than your franchise has had in 70.
Again, if you cant see Brodeur as one of the greatest ever to put on pads, then you are just ignorant, end of story.
And the Devils did beat a healthy goalie, his name was Kevin Weekes, its not our fault Lundqvist used the popular "I wasnt 100%" excuse. Nonsense, the Rangers were outplayed in every game in that series, it wasnt all on Lundqvist.
Sorry Rag$ fans, Brodeur will be known as the greatest goalie of all time once the wins record is his, and it is all 100% deserved.
I thought you guys didnt care about the Devils?

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11-20-2007, 12:49 AM
  #124
haakon84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Fundamentally, I agree with your post, but you should check you stats first. Henrik played 70 (80 including the POs) games last year, and 53 (+9 Olympic games and 3 POs) in a season where he started out as the back-up to Kevin Weekes. He's on pace to start 76 this year, although I expect that will whittle down to 70-72.

We're excited because for the first time since Richter, and the first time since Richter & Marty went head-to-head, we've got a world-class goalie that is stealing some of that spotlight from Marty. If DP plays as well as he can, and stays healthy, the Lunqvist/DP rivalry could be as much fun as the Richter/Brodeur years.
I did check my stats and Lundqvist started 69 games last season and played in 70.

Anyway I did not come on to bash Ranger fans. I am just saying that 3 years does not make a HOF career no matter how great his numbers are. What if he gets hurt for half the season or has nagging injuries much like Richter? Like I'm saying be patient and enjoy the great play he performs and don't start foolish arguments until there is something substantial (statement not directed at you but the overall Ranger fan experience I encounter.)

I agree with your post. I was just saying don't look to far ahead of yourselves. Also, it's not hard to steal a spotlight with an inch diameter, especially when you play at MSG.


Last edited by haakon84: 11-20-2007 at 12:58 AM.
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11-20-2007, 12:52 AM
  #125
haakon84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
You know what I really like about other fans that come on here and post stuff about the NYRs? They seldom know jack! Why don't you look up some facts before you post. Compare Lundqvist career stats thus far to any goalie currently in the league and tell us whose better? Compare his career thus far to some goalies in the HOF and tell us whose had a better start. Excited? Damn right! If you can't see the elite quality in Lundqvist we can't help you. (I mention Lundqvists' elite play but apparently I can't see it.)
I don't know jack?

Lundqvists career stats so far:
NHL Seasons: 3
Stanley Cup Rings: 0
Vezina trophies: 0

Ok, lets compare him to one of hockey's all-time great goaltenders.

You are the Ranger fan I am talking about.

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