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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
12-15-2007, 10:21 PM
  #351
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
...the aspect of fairness. It just plan sucks if you are matched up with the eventual finalist in the first or second round and lose in OT in the 7th game.
It sucks, yes, but is it an issue of fairness?

Many of us think we have had better teams than were given credit for. But if we lose in the first or second round that means our team wasn't better than #3 seed in a division of seven teams or else our team lost in an upset to a lower seed, in either case, one must look at one's own failure, to build a better regular season squad to get good seeding in the former case, and to build a better playoff squad to beat a lower seed in the latter case.

And, of course, with ANY seven game series that goes to game 7, it could have gone either way! That's the way it is in hockey.

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12-15-2007, 10:39 PM
  #352
pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
It sucks, yes, but is it an issue of fairness?

Many of us think we have had better teams than were given credit for. But if we lose in the first or second round that means our team wasn't better than #3 seed in a division of seven teams or else our team lost in an upset to a lower seed, in either case, one must look at one's own failure, to build a better regular season squad to get good seeding in the former case, and to build a better playoff squad to beat a lower seed in the latter case.

And, of course, with ANY seven game series that goes to game 7, it could have gone either way! That's the way it is in hockey.
Obviously we are never going to agree on this. You & BM67 are running this and putting in the time so run it any way in hell you want, I was just trying to be constructive.

I am well aware that there will be winners & losers whether in game 7 OT o a 4 game sweep. The thing is you can have the second best playoff squad & be gone in the first round. Your answer is "that's the way it is in hockey" doesn't cut for for me. Pretty hard to Take that as a lesson & say I will build a better team next time when the only reason you are out is because you met a strong team early and barely lost.

But, Run it the way you want. I seem to be the only one that doesn't like the current system anyway.

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12-16-2007, 12:02 AM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
It sucks, yes, but is it an issue of fairness?

Many of us think we have had better teams than were given credit for. But if we lose in the first or second round that means our team wasn't better than #3 seed in a division of seven teams or else our team lost in an upset to a lower seed, in either case, one must look at one's own failure, to build a better regular season squad to get good seeding in the former case, and to build a better playoff squad to beat a lower seed in the latter case.

And, of course, with ANY seven game series that goes to game 7, it could have gone either way! That's the way it is in hockey.
The thing is.... I've built ANYTHING...but a regular season squad.

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12-16-2007, 12:19 AM
  #354
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
The thing is.... I've built ANYTHING...but a regular season squad.
And as a result lost the chance at a #1 seed and first round bye!
Your team lost to a very good playoff #6 seed, led by Howe and Dryden.

Any g.m. that sacrifices regular season standing for playoff-performing guys runs the risk of being seeded unfavourably for playoff match-ups.

A #1 or #2 seed can bank on getting to the third round statistically in the playoffs we've been doing inthe ATD, more so than even in the NHL. Making the Final Eight is significant with so many teams so close in value.

Anyways... the draft should NOT be all about winning in the playoffs!!!!!!!!! Geez. Build the best team you can, of whatever style you'd like, and let the chips fall where they may, the playoffs being a BONUS fun event not the main event.

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12-16-2007, 10:07 AM
  #355
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VanI made an excellent point earlier: rating teams from 1-28 could be really, really difficult, and very cumbersome. I had a hard enough time rating 1-11 in the last minor league draft. Twenty-eight would be a headache.

I build my team for the playoffs because I value playoff success, and guys who really delivered in the playoffs - Neely, Bentley, etc. - are the ones I really respect. Winning this thing is nice, but most of all, I want a team I can be proud of. I want guys I grew up respecting, or, in the case of older players, players I would have grown up respecting. That's the bottom line for me. I want a team I could see myself cheering for. I'm not going to pick guys like Bure or Housley or Dionne.

And remember, it is just a fun draft. Winning the championship would be nice. (HO and pit can fill us in on the feeling). But it is just for fun. We don't have money on the line, and as much as I've been tempted to ask for a league fee, and build a trophy, I think this is one of those things that works better being just for fun. At the same time, if I don't win, I don't care when my team is eliminated. League final or first round. Losing is losing.

Even if we go with a 1-28 rating system, the odds of getting a 1-2 match-up would be slim. Two of four conference champions in this draft are out. The Falcons likely would have been my No. 1 seed for the regular season. They're done. When I look at the top 10 or 11 teams in the draft, regular season wise, there was very little to choose between them. You might have had 1 vs. 2 in the final; you might have also had 3 vs. 4, or 5 vs. 10.

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12-16-2007, 12:24 PM
  #356
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Send me your votes by 11:00 pm Eastern Tuesday.

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12-16-2007, 02:41 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Obviously we are never going to agree on this. You & BM67 are running this and putting in the time so run it any way in hell you want, I was just trying to be constructive.

I am well aware that there will be winners & losers whether in game 7 OT o a 4 game sweep. The thing is you can have the second best playoff squad & be gone in the first round. Your answer is "that's the way it is in hockey" doesn't cut for for me. Pretty hard to Take that as a lesson & say I will build a better team next time when the only reason you are out is because you met a strong team early and barely lost.

But, Run it the way you want. I seem to be the only one that doesn't like the current system anyway.
I don't think the system is flawless...I was faced against a Boston team that shut us down without breaking a sweat, where if we faced a less defensive minded team, who knows, maybe we could have done something. That said, with alll due respect, I don't like your proposed system better, only because like VanI and GBC have said, it'd be literally impossible to rank 28 teams from first to last. If I had to pick a team for this draft that I'd have in first, I'd probably have Aurora, followed by the Falcons in second. Oh wait, they're both out. Yeah, maybe in an ideal draft, the two "best" teams face off in the finals. But I don't think there is a clear cut best two teams. IMHO, most teams have a shot at winning a couple rounds, while I'd say maybe 10 teams are finals worthy. Meh.

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12-16-2007, 06:58 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
I don't think there is a clear cut best two teams. IMHO, most teams have a shot at winning a couple rounds, while I'd say maybe 10 teams are finals worthy.
A good way of putting it.

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Old
12-17-2007, 02:45 PM
  #359
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Personally, I like the fact that the current system is much like the NHL system: unbalanced and unfair. It makes the playoffs interesting to me that the best team may not always win and that differences in the makeup of the divisions and conferences may ultimately have an impact on which team is crowned champion.

As such, I think our method should exactly match the NHL playoff format: three divisions, eight playoff teams in each conference, top three seeds are division winners.

Regular season rankings can be done 1-14 based on conference; that's considerably easier than 1-28, isn't it?

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12-17-2007, 04:43 PM
  #360
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I think it would be cool if we named division all-star teams.

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12-17-2007, 05:12 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Personally, I like the fact that the current system is much like the NHL system: unbalanced and unfair. It makes the playoffs interesting to me that the best team may not always win and that differences in the makeup of the divisions and conferences may ultimately have an impact on which team is crowned champion.
I agree. I think the best team will almost always win. That's why they're the best team. Unless it's a very rare case where for whatever reason everybody decides, say Team X has super injury prone (I'm exaggerating) Orr, against unstoppable (a bit of an exaggeration) Shore, and even though Orr is the consensus better player, Shore is the one that is victorious.


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12-18-2007, 01:15 PM
  #362
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Please save me a spot to return in the next draft!!

No draft can be complete without the Detroit Red Wings

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12-18-2007, 01:38 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
Please save me a spot to return in the next draft!!

No draft can be complete without the Detroit Red Wings
My spot will probably be available. Pretty sure I won't enter the draft as a lone GM.

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12-18-2007, 01:46 PM
  #364
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I understand where pappy is coming from. It was unfortunate that a top-5 team like Guelph had to face another top-5 team in New Jersey in the second round and be eliminated because of the division system (IMO of course).

At the same time though, I don't like the idea of 1-28 ranking. As it's been said I think it would be much more difficult, with the gaps between teams shrinking even further making accurate ranking next to impossible.

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12-18-2007, 02:21 PM
  #365
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Just a thought: if a GM finds he won't be able to have the time to do the draft on his own, please, find a like-minded GM and offer a co-GM arrangement. It was a great draft, but I was disappointed that vets like Spit and #66 weren't involved.

I asked raleh to work with me because he was going to Greece, and he didn't plan on coming back. raleh and I see eye-to-eye on most players, and style of play, so I knew that a co-GM thing would be an easy sell.

Bottom line is I had more fun working with raleh than in any other draft. You might snicker at the thought of being a co-GM, but it is more fun, because you have someone to toss ideas with, and you might find out about players you wouldn't have thought about before. I knew raleh was a big Hughie Lehman fan; didn't realize until this draft how good Lehman was. He's one of the best back-ups available.

I wouldn't do it with someone whose philosophies differ from mine. I respect pappy as much as anyone at HF, but I could see us butting heads on a lot of players. I've learned more from Wiser than anyone else, but there might be a bit of a clash.

So there's still a way to be involved.

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12-18-2007, 03:34 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Just a thought: if a GM finds he won't be able to have the time to do the draft on his own, please, find a like-minded GM and offer a co-GM arrangement. It was a great draft, but I was disappointed that vets like Spit and #66 weren't involved.

A bit what I intend to do, actually.

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12-18-2007, 05:30 PM
  #367
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Bottom line is I had more fun working with raleh than in any other draft. You might snicker at the thought of being a co-GM, but it is more fun, because you have someone to toss ideas with, and you might find out about players you wouldn't have thought about before. I knew raleh was a big Hughie Lehman fan; didn't realize until this draft how good Lehman was. He's one of the best back-ups available.
I have to echo this statement. Working with Sturminator has been an awesome experience, a lot of fun and it reduces the pressures of the draft. Plus, I put together a better team because I wasn't going alone.

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12-18-2007, 05:46 PM
  #368
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having a co-g.m. for the minor league draft is doubly useful to combine lists and research the next-best, and reflect together, limiting each other's bias, making solid choices (also covering for gaps in each other's busy schedule)

I think that is what helped Hockey Outsider and I put together a championship Penticton Vees team: we vetoed some of each other's favs and we both commented on a hundred-odd possibilities...

though raleh & arrbez's Ice-o-Topes were equally worthy!

co-g.m.ing is fun! don't knock it until you've tried it

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12-18-2007, 06:23 PM
  #369
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It was fun to GM with EB. The only problem was that we had the most bipolar team ever created in any ATD or MLD...

On one hand, Hobey Baker.
On the other, Billy Coutu.

There were probably never a bigger gap between the gentlier and the punkier member of a team.

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12-18-2007, 08:49 PM
  #370
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We need writers. Sturm has said he can't this time. Anybody got the time?

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12-19-2007, 01:53 AM
  #371
Nalyd Psycho
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We need writers. Sturm has said he can't this time. Anybody got the time?
I got tommorow off and after a long sleep last night I'm feeling much better. Since it's not my series if Sturm was going to write it, I can take it. But, if anyone else wants it, go ahead.


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Old
12-19-2007, 04:53 AM
  #372
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Then go for it, I gotta finish x-mas shopping anyway.

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12-21-2007, 02:05 AM
  #373
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As long as no one expects me to write it New Years Day, I'd love to write the finals.

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12-21-2007, 07:46 AM
  #374
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I was thinking the voting deadline should be something like January 2nd.

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Old
12-21-2007, 12:25 PM
  #375
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I was thinking the voting deadline should be something like January 2nd.
Agree that it should be after New Year's Day. I'd actually like to see it January 3 or 4, give us a couple extra days to recover from the furour of the holidays. That way, we're done the draft January 6 or 7, and then it's on to the minor league draft.

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