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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
11-13-2007, 01:23 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Now that we're through the long weekend, start sending me your rankings.

Rank the teams in their divisions from 1 to 7, leaving your team out in your own divison. Co-gm's can both send in rankings, as can our lurkers, if they wish.
When are the ranking due? Can we have until the weekend?

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11-13-2007, 01:49 PM
  #77
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When are the ranking due? Can we have until the weekend?
Yeah, count me in as someone who needs time. How long do we have?

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Old
11-13-2007, 09:08 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
When are the ranking due? Can we have until the weekend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yeah, count me in as someone who needs time. How long do we have?
Hey, surely you had your ranks finalized by the 6th round.

It would be nice to be able to announce the standings on Sunday, rather than Monday.

So I'll set the deadline at 3 pm eastern on Sunday.

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Old
11-13-2007, 09:36 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Hey, surely you had your ranks finalized by the 6th round.

It would be nice to be able to announce the standings on Sunday, rather than Monday.

So I'll set the deadline at 3 pm eastern on Sunday.
I'll have mine done...but just a hypothetical: say I don't get mine in by then, and I send em in, oh, lets say Monday...what happens?

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Old
11-13-2007, 09:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Hey, surely you had your ranks finalized by the 6th round.

It would be nice to be able to announce the standings on Sunday, rather than Monday.

So I'll set the deadline at 3 pm eastern on Sunday.
Good stuff. The rankings have gotten much tougher with each draft. There is so much parity in the divisions right now, it's definitely going to take some time and effort to put these rankings together.

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Old
11-13-2007, 10:34 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
...a hypothetical: say I don't get mine in by then, and I send em in, oh, lets say Monday...what happens?

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Old
11-14-2007, 04:47 AM
  #82
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Just discovered this forum. Is cool.

An opening salvo..

How does Boom Boom Geoffrion barely crack the top 50? He's probably one of the top 10 offensive players ever. His '60 campaign was one for the ages.

Count the players who've had definitively better years: Morenz, Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Howe, Gretzky, LaFleur, Lemieux. Thats it. I didn't double check but those are all first round picks. Production wise, accounting for era, he compares to Jagr but more goals, less assists.

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Old
11-14-2007, 04:58 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by KidOftheBlackHole View Post
Just discovered this forum. Is cool.

An opening salvo..

How does Boom Boom Geoffrion barely crack the top 50? He's probably one of the top 10 offensive players ever. His '60 campaign was one for the ages.

Count the players who've had definitively better years: Morenz, Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Howe, Gretzky, LaFleur, Lemieux. Thats it. I didn't double check but those are all first round picks. Production wise, accounting for era, he compares to Jagr but more goals, less assists.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my knock against him (and Jagr, for that matter) is that they were primarily offensive players. We aren't ranking greatness, we're trying to build a balanced, capable team. I took Larry Robinson and Bryan Trottier ahead of Geoffrion, and he would have been a coin-toss had he still been on the board when I took Jari Kurri a few picks later. Robinson and Trottier were tremendous two-way players who could be on the ice in any situation, something you can't really say about a lot of the great scorers in hockey history. Add in a smattering of goalies, and it's easy for someone to slip from 20 to 50.

Just looking at right wingers:

3 Gordie Howe
6 Maurice Richard
10 Guy Lafleur
17 Mike Bossy
28 Jaromir Jagr
45 Dit Clapper sorta
48 Bernie Geoffrion

Calling Boom Boom the 7th best RW ever to play isn't unreasonable (Lafleur, Bossy, Jagr and Geoffrion are all just about the same in my book) ... keep in mind that scoring right wingers are plentiful in hockey history, so it's not as if you must take one early to get one. There is a premium on prodigies like Gretzky and Beliveau (don't think Geoffrion goes in that category) and a premium on defenders with offensive upside (Orr, Harvey, Robinson, Potvn) ... factor those together and right wingers just slip a bit.

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Old
11-14-2007, 05:03 AM
  #84
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When Vladimir Martinec and Ziggy Palffy are still left available to be picked in the 24th round, 649th and 651st overall, you know there are A LOT of quality scoring right wingers... it is one of the deepest positions in the draft, in the history of hockey.

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11-14-2007, 12:31 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Hey, surely you had your ranks finalized by the 6th round.

It would be nice to be able to announce the standings on Sunday, rather than Monday.

So I'll set the deadline at 3 pm eastern on Sunday.
That's reasonable.

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Old
11-14-2007, 01:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
When Vladimir Martinec and Ziggy Palffy are still left available to be picked in the 24th round, 649th and 651st overall, you know there are A LOT of quality scoring right wingers... it is one of the deepest positions in the draft, in the history of hockey.
I really don't understand your fascination with Zigmund Palffy, he was a solid first line scorer in his prime, but you make him out to be some kind of light power-forward, which he isn't. I know it is your thing to find an obscure quote from god knows where and highlight a part of it and form an opinion based on that alone.

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Old
11-14-2007, 03:32 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidOftheBlackHole View Post
Just discovered this forum. Is cool.

An opening salvo..

How does Boom Boom Geoffrion barely crack the top 50? He's probably one of the top 10 offensive players ever. His '60 campaign was one for the ages.

Count the players who've had definitively better years: Morenz, Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Howe, Gretzky, LaFleur, Lemieux. Thats it. I didn't double check but those are all first round picks. Production wise, accounting for era, he compares to Jagr but more goals, less assists.
If you're evaluating players based only on their single best season, then certainly Geoffrion (not to mention Dickie Moore) should rate higher than he's normally picked in this forum, but we don't do that. Boom Boom was a hell of a talent and I don't knock him for not playing a lot of defense because most of the top scorers didn't. Geoffrion's biggest issue is that he was battered for much of his career - missed a ton of games and wasn't always right even when he was playing. You know how many top-10 scoring finishes Geoffrion had after his huge season? Zero.

The guy still had a long and excellent career, but he's a player whose career is defined by peaks and valleys. The fact that he played for what is almost certainly the greatest hockey team ever assembled (and was essentially a 2nd liner behind the Rocket for a good chunk of his career) must be factored in, as well. Having Jean Beliveau feeding you pucks against 2nd pairing defensemen for most of your prime is a bit of an advantage.

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Old
11-14-2007, 03:45 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Frightened Inmate #2 View Post
I really don't understand your fascination with Zigmund Palffy, he was a solid first line scorer in his prime, but you make him out to be some kind of light power-forward, which he isn't. I know it is your thing to find an obscure quote from god knows where and highlight a part of it and form an opinion based on that alone.
huh? I mentioned Martinec and Palffy as "offensive right wingers" that dropped to round 24 as an example of the depth of scoring right wingers in the draft.

(I did mention elsewhere that Palffy has a competitive spirit and cited a quote where he yells at the refs, opposition and the ice! I also say he is willing to pay the cost by going into traffic. I never meant to suggest he is any kind of power forward, just that he meets Shero's edict that every man be willing to go into corners and traffic areas to get the puck. Of course, in doing so, Palffy was often the pinball and has been left on the ice countless times, though he also pops out with the puck and takes a quick shot as well.)

And I base my opinion of post 1979 players on hockey I have seen. That's why I tend to draft them: because I have seen them and have a decent sense of their style and performance. Basing one's opinion on an obscure quote is prevalent in picking golden oldies as - beside stats and awards - we often have little else to go on unfortunately.

Peace.


Last edited by VanIslander: 11-14-2007 at 04:01 PM.
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Old
11-14-2007, 04:17 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Hey, surely you had your ranks finalized by the 6th round.

It would be nice to be able to announce the standings on Sunday, rather than Monday.

So I'll set the deadline at 3 pm eastern on Sunday.
this sunday coming up right?

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Old
11-14-2007, 05:54 PM
  #90
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I'll ask this here in case anyone has more information:

Does anyone have more information about Bill Cowley's speed? I'm getting conflicting information. According to legendsofhockey.net, Cowley used "his swift skating" to create offense but according to Ultimate Hockey, his teammates say "he was about as fast as an anchored rowboat". I'm trying to get a feel for Gwinnett's second line, so if anyone has some info, I'd appreciate it.

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Old
11-14-2007, 06:14 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Does anyone have more information about Bill Cowley's speed? I'm getting conflicting information. According to legendsofhockey.net, Cowley used "his swift skating" to create offense but according to Ultimate Hockey, his teammates say "he was about as fast as an anchored rowboat". I'm trying to get a feel for Gwinnett's second line, so if anyone has some info, I'd appreciate it.
I just assume he has average speed... not so important

Cowley is a playmaker who doesn't score many goals, churns out assists like crazy. That kind of player doesn't need much speed to succeed at doing what they do.

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11-14-2007, 06:17 PM
  #92
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I just assume he has average speed... not so important

Cowley is a playmaker who doesn't score many goals, churns out assists like crazy. That kind of player doesn't need much speed to succeed at doing what they do.
Fair enough. I just see a quick Cowley between two guys like Bondra and Shutt being pretty damn scary off the rush.

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11-14-2007, 06:20 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Fair enough. I just see a quick Cowley between two guys like Bondra and Shutt being pretty damn scary off the rush.
I think he would have scored at a higher clip than an Adam Oates if that was the case. Getting the puck to those finishers is good enough.

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Old
11-14-2007, 07:40 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I'll ask this here in case anyone has more information:

Does anyone have more information about Bill Cowley's speed? I'm getting conflicting information. According to legendsofhockey.net, Cowley used "his swift skating" to create offense but according to Ultimate Hockey, his teammates say "he was about as fast as an anchored rowboat". I'm trying to get a feel for Gwinnett's second line, so if anyone has some info, I'd appreciate it.
I gather that he had good speed to begin with, but had trouble with a bad knee that probably cut his speed as he went along. He missed time at least 3 times because of knee injuries.

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11-14-2007, 08:31 PM
  #95
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If you're evaluating players based only on their single best season, then certainly Geoffrion (not to mention Dickie Moore) should rate higher than he's normally picked in this forum, but we don't do that. Boom Boom was a hell of a talent and I don't knock him for not playing a lot of defense because most of the top scorers didn't. Geoffrion's biggest issue is that he was battered for much of his career - missed a ton of games and wasn't always right even when he was playing. You know how many top-10 scoring finishes Geoffrion had after his huge season? Zero.

The guy still had a long and excellent career, but he's a player whose career is defined by peaks and valleys. The fact that he played for what is almost certainly the greatest hockey team ever assembled (and was essentially a 2nd liner behind the Rocket for a good chunk of his career) must be factored in, as well. Having Jean Beliveau feeding you pucks against 2nd pairing defensemen for most of your prime is a bit of an advantage.
You need to look at Bernie's playoff performance too..

Top playoff point scorers of the 1950's:

Geoffrion placed 1st,2nd,2nd,2nd,3rd,4th
Richard - 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd,3rd,5th
Beliveau - 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th
Howe - 1st,1st,4th,5th
Moore - 1st,1st,4th
Mackell - 1st,3rd
Lindsay - 1st,5th

Hey it looks like he even outmatched The Rocket. Wasn't he the best clutch player ever?

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11-14-2007, 08:44 PM
  #96
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I gather that he had good speed to begin with, but had trouble with a bad knee that probably cut his speed as he went along. He missed time at least 3 times because of knee injuries.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks BM.

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Old
11-14-2007, 08:44 PM
  #97
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I can't speak for anyone else, but my knock against him (and Jagr, for that matter) is that they were primarily offensive players. We aren't ranking greatness, we're trying to build a balanced, capable team. I took Larry Robinson and Bryan Trottier ahead of Geoffrion, and he would have been a coin-toss had he still been on the board when I took Jari Kurri a few picks later. Robinson and Trottier were tremendous two-way players who could be on the ice in any situation, something you can't really say about a lot of the great scorers in hockey history. Add in a smattering of goalies, and it's easy for someone to slip from 20 to 50.

Just looking at right wingers:

3 Gordie Howe
6 Maurice Richard
10 Guy Lafleur
17 Mike Bossy
28 Jaromir Jagr
45 Dit Clapper sorta
48 Bernie Geoffrion

Calling Boom Boom the 7th best RW ever to play isn't unreasonable (Lafleur, Bossy, Jagr and Geoffrion are all just about the same in my book) ... keep in mind that scoring right wingers are plentiful in hockey history, so it's not as if you must take one early to get one. There is a premium on prodigies like Gretzky and Beliveau (don't think Geoffrion goes in that category) and a premium on defenders with offensive upside (Orr, Harvey, Robinson, Potvn) ... factor those together and right wingers just slip a bit.
Yeah, but it all depends on what you compliment them with. We've had this discussion numerous times, so nobodies changing their POV's. A Gainey-Gretzky-Jagr line has it all. Gretzky and Jagr being the offense, Gainey being the defense.

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Old
11-14-2007, 09:13 PM
  #98
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cowley was fast

compared to bucyk

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11-14-2007, 09:22 PM
  #99
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You need to look at Bernie's playoff performance too..

Top playoff point scorers of the 1950's:

Geoffrion placed 1st,2nd,2nd,2nd,3rd,4th
Richard - 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd,3rd,5th
Beliveau - 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th
Howe - 1st,1st,4th,5th
Moore - 1st,1st,4th
Mackell - 1st,3rd
Lindsay - 1st,5th

Hey it looks like he even outmatched The Rocket. Wasn't he the best clutch player ever?
Here's something I worked on for the Dick Duff HHoF thread. All these guys won 6 or more Cups.

Finals Scoring on First & Game Winning goals
PlayerGoalsAssistsPointsFirst GFirst AFirst Pts%GWGGWAGWPts%
Dick Duff14193351354.5%3936.4%
Jean Beliveau303262151141.9%9827.4%
Maurice Richard3411459428.9%8324.4%
Henri Richard1926454520%4826.7%
Bernie Geoffrion2421457935.6%6728.9%
Dickie Moore1021314632.3%2316.1%
Frank Mahovlich1625412824.4%2312.2%

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11-14-2007, 11:55 PM
  #100
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Boom Boom would miss anywhere from 10 to 30 games a year, its true. But if you look at per game stats, his numbers throughout the 50s stack up well vs almost anybody. He can't match Howe, thats true. Who exactly can?

He also, even on a per game basis, doesn't have the "big" years like Beliveau does except '60, but thats only a couple years like 58-59 really. In general, there isn't the separation between the stats of the two to suggest that Beliveau should get credit for making him THAT much better. 1960 is an example of him at his best, basically.

Finally, I don't bring up his playoff runs because obviously that's going to be colored by the team he played for.

Quote:
Just looking at right wingers:

3 Gordie Howe
6 Maurice Richard
10 Guy Lafleur
17 Mike Bossy
28 Jaromir Jagr
45 Dit Clapper sorta
48 Bernie Geoffrion
I pretty much agree with that and feel it makes my point. I'm not sure Clapper quite belongs in the discussion though

The point is, all the others are first rounders, why not Geoffrion? I wouldn't take him over any of the others, but I would definitely take him next after those 6.

And he could also play Left Wing..

Maybe my drafting philosophy is biased, but it seems like real NHL teams would go for top line forwards and #1 D-Men in the first round. Goalies probably not because so many of them are hard to tell apart due to not having much statistical data, too much team bias, and because at that level its hard to distinguish one from another. I think Martin Brodeur was the worst pick of whatever round he went, incidentally.

Take Yzerman as an example in the first round. You are not magically going to get his best offense year(s) AND his defense all at the same time. Offensively he might have ended up near Dionne if he hadn't changed his game. As a two-way player he was a winner but not really a first round pick. Geoffrion was.

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