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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
11-16-2007, 02:14 AM
  #126
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidOftheBlackHole View Post
Absolutely. I'm not arguing against Beliveau, only that its not clear that he "made" Geoffrion the player he is.
I never said that Beliveau "made" Geoffrion, nor do I believe it. Many all-time greats have played alongside other all-time greats. It's much less the fact that Geoffrion played with Beliveau and much more the fact that those Habs teams had two #1 lines and an insanely talented defense for much of Bernie's career (and thus opponents had to divide resources in defending them) that constitutes a rather clear relative advantage in my mind, though this applies equally to all of the players on those great Montreal teams.

There has really never been another team like those Habs - another team with two lines which could be first lines not just in the NHL, but in an all-time draft. In my opinion, there was a kind of critical mass reached by that team (at least for a few seasons) in which they all thrived because they were surrounded constantly by such incomparable greatness - in every game and on every shift. They all were great as individuals, but I think the greatness of that team pumped up their numbers (and their postseason achievements) beyond what one would expect to see if they were placed in another environment.

Ceteris parabis, ceteris parabis. Perhaps I think this way because I am an attorney, but rather than counting cups as some GMs do, I discount them relative to the strength of the team (it's only truly relevant for golden age teams) and the size of the league. Patrick Roy's two cups in Montreal are more impressive to me than Henri Richard's fifty seven. Honestly.

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11-16-2007, 04:30 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Evil Speaker View Post
What if you had Doug Harvey on your team? Could you decline a chance at reuniting arguably the greatest powerplay tandem on the point of all time?
I prefectly agree there and think that was a stellar decision. I think Geoffrion went about exactly where he should, he's a late 2nd rounder. I didn't mean to dis your pick, I was just saying I don't think Bernie's underrated.

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Old
11-16-2007, 07:05 AM
  #128
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Look at what I've found on eBay!



http://cgi.ebay.ca/FRED-CYCLONE-TAYL...QQcmdZViewItem

... 400$ still counting, no way this AUTO is sold under 1000$. One of the finest item I have found on eBay in a long time. I wish I had tons of money to spend on cool items like these.

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Old
11-16-2007, 04:35 PM
  #129
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Look at what I've found on eBay!



http://cgi.ebay.ca/FRED-CYCLONE-TAYL...QQcmdZViewItem

... 400$ still counting, no way this AUTO is sold under 1000$. One of the finest item I have found on eBay in a long time. I wish I had tons of money to spend on cool items like these.
I'm by no means an expert, but could that possibly be fake??

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Old
11-16-2007, 10:18 PM
  #130
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My rankings are in. A few thoughts:

- It gets tougher to rank the teams with each subsequent draft. There's very little separating any of them. I've probably changed my rankings a few dozen times during the past week. If I submitted my rankings a day or two earlier, many teams would move up or down a rank or two.

- My rankings are primarily based on regular season performances. So I'm placing more value on consistency, health and longevity, and much less on clutch/choker playoff reputations. I also gave a slight premium to real-life chemistry; I think that the players will be used to their new linematers by the playoffs, but the KLM (for example) will have a bit of a head-start during the first few weeks of the schedule.

- The Foster Hewitt division is the fastest, most exciting, and probably highest-scoring. The Bob Cole division has some extremely impressive forward units and some surprisingly mediocre bluelines; you know the goaltending's great when George Hainsworth is the weakest starter. The Don Cherry division, while less impressive in goal, is ridiculously stacked at centre. The Jim Robson division is the most physical and I found it the most difficult to rank.

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Old
11-16-2007, 10:55 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
My rankings are primarily based on regular season performances. So I'm placing more value on consistency, health and longevity, and much less on clutch/choker playoff reputations. I also gave a slight premium to real-life chemistry.
Me too.

Regular season hockey tends to have more open ice. Playoff hockey is another animal.

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Old
11-17-2007, 02:15 AM
  #132
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Haven't gotten the time to do any serious thinking about ranking teams, and I won't until at least Wednesday AM your time. I'll be back for the 1st round of playoff voting ... here's hoping the Dallas Blackhawks are still in the running.

Vote Blackhawks!!!

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Old
11-17-2007, 02:27 AM
  #133
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I voted the Stephen Colbert way, using my gut.

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Old
11-17-2007, 06:22 PM
  #134
EagleBelfour
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I don't remember what we've done last year for the GM who don't send their vote, becasue if we vote for our own division, it help the ranking of GM who do not send their vote, right?

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Old
11-17-2007, 06:27 PM
  #135
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Just wanted to wish a happy birthday to FI2.

Edit: It isn't showing anymore on the front page...did I make a mistake?


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Old
11-18-2007, 04:49 AM
  #136
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I voted for Kodos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I don't remember what we've done last year for the GM who don't send their vote, becasue if we vote for our own division, it help the ranking of GM who do not send their vote, right?
That's a good point. And what about co-GMs both voting on their own division - would that not also throw off the rankings? BM, what's the story? We may be better off not ranking our own divisions, at all.

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Old
11-18-2007, 08:23 AM
  #137
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Well, I think teams with co-GM's should vote as a team, because it's likely to some problems with the vote in their own div...

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Old
11-18-2007, 08:35 AM
  #138
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A GM doesn't rate his team, but is slotted at #1 by me. So if you don't vote you hurt your team. A co-gm that also votes will be slotted at #4 so as not to improve their team over a single GM's team.

So far 19 of the 33 GMs have voted, with only one team having both GMs vote.


Last edited by BM67: 11-18-2007 at 11:42 AM.
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Old
11-18-2007, 09:07 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
A GM doesn't rate his team, but is slotted at #1 by me. So if you don't vote you hurt your team. A co-gm that also votes will be slotted at #3 so as not to improve their team over a single GM's team.

So far 19 of the 33 GMs have voted, with only one team having both GMs vote.
Hummm... Fair enough.

This said... Did you meant Sunday, 3 PM (TODAY) for the rankings? Not that it really matters to me : I've completed and sent my rankings... Just somewhat impatient about how the draft will turn out.


Last edited by MXD: 11-18-2007 at 09:15 AM.
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Old
11-18-2007, 10:51 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
A GM doesn't rate his team, but is slotted at #1 by me. So if you don't vote you hurt your team. A co-gm that also votes will be slotted at #3 so as not to improve their team over a single GM's team.

So far 19 of the 33 GMs have voted, with only one team having both GMs vote.
Technically, shouldn't the co-GM's team be ranked at #4 so that there are three teams above and three below? It's not a big deal anyway, I can't see it making a huge difference.

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Old
11-18-2007, 10:57 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Technically, shouldn't the co-GM's team be ranked at #4 so that there are three teams above and three below? It's not a big deal anyway, I can't see it making a huge difference.
What I understood from the original post is that there was two 3rd places, but I guess you're right if we see it the other way around.

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11-18-2007, 11:42 AM
  #142
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Yeah, 4th not 3rd. The first voting co-GM gets a 1st and the second gets a 4th.

The first time we gave a last place vote, and then when 1 guy didn't vote, we had to make an adjustment, as not voting helped his team. Now with the 1st place vote, not voting hurts your team.

Yes, today is the deadline day. I'll add in any votes I get before I total the results, but I see no need to add any extra days, as over 60% of the teams have already voted.

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Old
11-18-2007, 02:18 PM
  #143
Nalyd Psycho
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Foster Hewitt DivisionThe_Hockey_Guy18WisentRick MiddletonSturminatorNalyd PsychoreckoningBlueBleedershawnmullin
Dartmouth Subways /5234/16
Dubai Mighty Camels 1/615/35
Gwinnett Gladiators 32/63/54
Oakland Seals 564///22
Ottawa 67s 44126/43
St. Louis Eagles 23562//1
Victoria Cougars 61341/6/

Here we see a randomly generated possible voting pattern for the Foster Hewitt Division. In it, both Sturm and I have voted, the only co-gms in the division. And reckoning has not voted. Here are for tabulating methods and the effect they'll have.

Foster Hewitt DivisionLowest score winsHighest score* winsLowest Score averaged winsHighest score averaged wins
Dartmouth Subways 21213.53.5
Dubai Mighty Camels 21213.53.5
Gwinnett Gladiators 23193.833.16
Oakland Seals 19163.83.2
Ottawa 67s 24253.433.57
St. Louis Eagles 19233.163.83
Victoria Cougars 21213.53.5

If lowest score wins is used, Co-GMs benefit, non-voters suffer, if highest score wins is used, co-GMs suffer, non-voters benefit. But, if either of the average score is used, it all balances out.

*For the purpose of this, highest score is determined by making a vote of 1 worth 6 points, and a vote of 6 worth 1 point.

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Old
11-18-2007, 02:36 PM
  #144
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Foster Hewitt DivisionThe_Hockey_Guy18WisentRick MiddletonSturminatorNalyd PsychoreckoningBlueBleedershawnmullin
Dartmouth Subways /5234/16
Dubai Mighty Camels 1/615/35
Gwinnett Gladiators 32/63/54
Oakland Seals 564///22
Ottawa 67s 44126/43
St. Louis Eagles 23562//1
Victoria Cougars 61341/6/

Here we see a randomly generated possible voting pattern for the Foster Hewitt Division. In it, both Sturm and I have voted, the only co-gms in the division. And reckoning has not voted. Here are for tabulating methods and the effect they'll have.

Foster Hewitt DivisionLowest score winsHighest score* winsLowest Score averaged winsHighest score averaged wins
Dartmouth Subways 21213.53.5
Dubai Mighty Camels 21213.53.5
Gwinnett Gladiators 23193.833.16
Oakland Seals 19163.83.2
Ottawa 67s 24253.433.57
St. Louis Eagles 19233.163.83
Victoria Cougars 21213.53.5

If lowest score wins is used, Co-GMs benefit, non-voters suffer, if highest score wins is used, co-GMs suffer, non-voters benefit. But, if either of the average score is used, it all balances out.

*For the purpose of this, highest score is determined by making a vote of 1 worth 6 points, and a vote of 6 worth 1 point.
I think AVG rank should be the way to go --- or lower score, pretty much means the same. It slightly (and the keyword is slightly...) disadvantages teams with No-Gm's. By assigning the average of every other results. to the column of the non-voters, it kinda evens it out for the non-voters, as the non-voter doesn't have the 1st place the other guys have.

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11-18-2007, 02:38 PM
  #145
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I think AVG rank should be the way to go --- or lower score, pretty much means the same. It slightly (and the keyword is slightly...) disadvantages teams with No-Gm's. By assigning the average of every other results. to the column of the non-voters, it kinda evens it out for the non-voters, as the non-voter doesn't have the 1st place the other guys have.
I didn't give a 1st place for one's own team, I give a n/a.

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Old
11-18-2007, 02:53 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I didn't give a 1st place for one's own team, I give a n/a.
I just adjusted your "study" to what BM's said he would do.

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Old
11-18-2007, 03:35 PM
  #147
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I just submitted my rankings. I may be alone in this one but the Cherry division is NUTS! I think four of the top 6 teams in the draft are in this division. I rank out of 10 in order to separate teams that I view as pretty close to equal. My fourth pick for this division was at 9.4. I spent a good half hour deciding between Aurora and Guelph!

Another thing I realized while compiling my rankings: Murph, I've always said you have my favorite team in the draft. I've never voted against your team in a playoff series, but for once there's another team that might rival yours in my opinion. VanI's Raiders make me smile every time I look at the lineup.

I can't wait to get this thing started!

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Old
11-18-2007, 06:32 PM
  #148
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i submitted my rankngs today as well hopefully i wasn't too late

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Old
11-18-2007, 07:02 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Yes, today is the deadline day. I'll add in any votes I get before I total the results, but I see no need to add any extra days, as over 60% of the teams have already voted.
Thank gawd...I can't wait much longer

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Old
11-18-2007, 07:50 PM
  #150
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With a final total of 21 votes, here are your ATD#8 Final Season Standings:

Don Cherry Division:
1 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
2 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
3 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
4 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
5 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
6 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
7 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs

In the only tie in the divisional rankings Aurora beat New Jersey on number of first place votes.

Jim Robson Division:
1 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
2 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
3 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
4 VanIslander - New York Raiders
5 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
6 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
7 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts

Bob Cole Division:
1 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
2 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
3 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
4 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
5 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
6 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
7 Murphy - Edmonton Oilers

Foster Hewitt Division:
1 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
2 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
3 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
4 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
5 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
6 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
7 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles

Playoff Matchups:

Cherry Division:
2 BM67 - New Jersey Devils vs 7 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
3 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores vs 6 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
4 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers vs 5 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers

Robson Division:
2 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF vs 7 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
3 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke vs 6 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
4 VanIslander - New York Raiders vs 5 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains

Bob Cole Division:
2 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers vs 7 Murphy - Edmonton Oilers
3 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins vs 6 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
4 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers vs 5 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs

Hewitt Division:
2 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators vs 7 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
3 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars vs 6 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
4 reckoning - Ottawa 67s vs 5 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels

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