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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
11-19-2007, 06:09 PM
  #176
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Montreal Canadiens All-Time Best Defensemans
(from Yvon Pednault)

1. Doug Harvey (which he point out to be the first defenseman of the league to have a tandancy to rush the puck and play an offensive game... )

2. Larry Robinson
3. Serge Savard (a close 3rd)

4. JC Tremblay
5. Guy Lapointe

Opinions?
I'd have Lapointe ahead of Tremblay (and Lappy as well), Sprague Cleghorne in the Top-5... Heck.. I even have Tom Johnson ahead of Tremblay.

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11-19-2007, 06:11 PM
  #177
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Maybe I'm completely off and homerish, but I think Markus Naslund should get a mention over Brad Richards, and possibly Thornton as well.
How many Hart, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe trophies does Naslund have? Thornton and Richards definitely belong ahead of Naslund. I might take Naslund over Richards if they're both rolling, but until he brings it in the playoffs he's just another guy who was pretty good.

However, Paul Henderson doesn't belong on the list. Not even close tot he level of the other guys on there. He scored a couple of important goals- good for him. But 3 games does not a career make.

Trottier behind Yzerman and Sakic? Absurd. If Yzerman could put together a season that combined his offensive output in his early years and his defensive prowess in the cup years he'd be where Trots was in his prime. To me it's Trottier by a mile, then Robinson then Yzerman and Sakic. Trots is a top 10 centre of all time, and a case could be made for him to be as high as 4th. He's in the group with Clarke, Schimdt, Esposito, Morenz, etc after the big three of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau. Robinson is interchangeable in my opinion with Red Kelly as the 6th or 7th best Dman of all time. They're the top two #19s for sure.

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11-19-2007, 06:24 PM
  #178
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You're completely off and homerish.

Richards is a bit high. I have no bloody idea who has worn #19 but I'm damned sure there are some that could beat out Richards.

Partial list at http://www.azhockey.com/shirts/shirts19.html
Of course, how could I forget legendary Krzysztof Oliwa??

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11-19-2007, 09:17 PM
  #179
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Posting in this thread and not the matchup thread because it's more about the ranking and not how I match up to GBC.

Despite the fact that I am up against a lot of great hockey minds with as much knowledge (in most cases, more) than I, and despite the experience disadvantage I am facing, I must say I'm surprised to get 7th in my division. Were the votes varied, and it all just happened to shake out with me in 7th, or was my team really that bad across the board?

A couple comments regarding the lineup: 1) goal scoring in the top-6. With Dye, Stewart, Denneny, Dionne, and Nicholls, I have a total of 15 top-2 finishes in the NHL goal-scoring race. Does anyone have that? (I say this partially because I think the answer is no, but also because I don't have the time to comb through the lineups again and verify, but each individual GM should know quite well and can speak up if they do indeed have this) I don't mean to make it look like I am obsessed with season-by-season accomplishments, but on the other hand it feels like every time my lineup is looked at all I hear is "slow forwards". Are we putting too much weight into a player's piece-by-piece strengths and weaknesses and not enough on where these strengths and weaknesses got them? By that logic I could look at a first line containing Gretzky and Bure and say "pretty soft first line… they'll get pushed around a lot". Or for a line with Lemieux and Kerr I could say "really injury prone first line there… you'll be lucky if they both are healthy at the same time!" or a line with Howe and Messier… "really dirty line there, good luck with all the suspensions and penalties they're going to take!"

The way I see it, Dye, Stewart, and Denneny, three of the five most explosive goal-scorers (the other two being Conacher and Cook) in the first 25 years of the NHL scored tons of goals despite their below-average speed. Should it be considered a detriment now? Also, with Thornton (three times top-3 in points), Nicholls (PPG career), Mellanby (320 G), Clark (340 G), Thomas (420 G), not to Mention Duff & Smyth in the lineup, my team has been said to have more pop on the 3rd and 4th lines due to the admitted lack of "pure" checkers. Isn't it possible that I have the most potent offense in the league?

I think the comments on my goaltending are fair. Durnan is considered top-8 by almost everyone, but his playoff credentials, while good, are not "as impressive" as his regular season exploits. No one is claiming my goaltending to be poor, though.

Not that anyone is picking on my defense, but hands up if you can say you have 13 combined norris trophies and runners-up on your roster, counting retros (which are legit; it's not too hard to just admit to yourself that if the award existed back then this is probably how they'd have been awarded). I see two, maybe three hands.

Just sayin'… I like my roster a lot, and so should you!

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Old
11-19-2007, 09:31 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
By that logic I could look at a first line containing Gretzky and Bure and say "pretty soft first line… they'll get pushed around a lot". Or for a line with Lemieux and Kerr I could say "really injury prone first line there… you'll be lucky if they both are healthy at the same time!" or a line with Howe and Messier… "really dirty line there, good luck with all the suspensions and penalties they're going to take!"

The way I see it, Dye, Stewart, and Denneny, three of the five most explosive goal-scorers (the other two being Conacher and Cook) in the first 25 years of the NHL scored tons of goals despite their below-average speed. Should it be considered a detriment now? Also, with Thornton (three times top-3 in points), Nicholls (PPG career), Mellanby (320 G), Clark (340 G), Thomas (420 G), not to Mention Duff & Smyth in the lineup, my team has been said to have more pop on the 3rd and 4th lines due to the admitted lack of "pure" checkers. Isn't it possible that I have the most potent offense in the league?

I think the comments on my goaltending are fair. Durnan is considered top-8 by almost everyone, but his playoff credentials, while good, are not "as impressive" as his regular season exploits. No one is claiming my goaltending to be poor, though.
First... If you think a Lemieux-Kerr line is injury prone... MENTION IT, dammit! At least I won't be the only one to matter about these kind of things. Consider it in your reviews! I remember writing a 10-line paragraph about why I didn't thought Ken Reardon was a good pick at 119 --- because I think that's a high pick for a guy who missed 1/4 of every season he played during his career (now, I conceed that's a bit tough to compare this to, let's say, Bill Barilko's situation, who played lots of games, but had a shorter career. I don't think anybody would consider Barilko superior to Reardon, so it might not be the best example...whatever...). Gretz-Bure would be soft, but that's nothing that cannot be covered (like, drafting Clark Gilles. They wouldn't be great backcheckers, but they would have good puck control, so...). Howe - Messier would be good at some extent, depending on the C... More important for Top-D-Mens and checkers IMO, but important for forwards nonetheless. Build with one strenght in mind. Allow you to have one weakness that can be covered with your strengths.

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Old
11-19-2007, 10:22 PM
  #181
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Somebody has to be 7th. Take note that every team in your division received at least one 7th place vote.

As for your team, it's more a lack of balance than of true weakness. 15 top-2 goal scorers vs 5 top-2 assist leaders. Several rather slow forwards and no real speed demons. No real checkers and several players not that interested in defense.

Individually your players look good, but they don't really blend in to a strong team concept. Your PK forwards certainly aren't going to scare anybody.

Add one or two checkers or two-way guys, and one or two speedy guys and your looking good.

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Old
11-20-2007, 06:13 AM
  #182
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Any thoughts of doing some sort of vote/poll for regular season awards?

I think it'd be very interesting based on standings and rosters who people would vote for.

Say...

Hart
Art Ross
Maurice Richard
Norris
Vezina
Jennings
Jack Adams

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Old
11-20-2007, 06:33 AM
  #183
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On the Detroit Falcons, realistically and considering my rank, I could see:

Presidents' Trophy - Detroit Falcons (Nomination)
Jim Coleman Conference Trophy - Detroit Falcons (Win)
Red Fisher Conference Trophy ---
Art Ross Trophy ---
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) ---
Frank J. Selke Trophy - Milt Schmidt (Win)
Hart Memorial Trophy ---
Jack Adams Award - Pat Burns (Nomination)
James Norris Memorial Trophy ---
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy - Stan Mikita (Nomination)
Lester B. Pearson Award ---
Maurice Richard Trophy ---
Vezina Trophy ---
William M. Jennings Trophy - Frank Brimsek/Roy Worters (Win)

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Old
11-20-2007, 01:31 PM
  #184
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Hey guys....lost my job last week and will have sporadic access to the internet. When is the deadline to vote on the first round matchups ?

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Old
11-20-2007, 02:13 PM
  #185
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Presidents' Trophy --- Oakland Seals
Jim Coleman Conference Trophy ---
Red Fisher Conference Trophy ---
Art Ross Trophy --- Wayne Gretzky
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) ---
Frank J. Selke Trophy ---
Hart Memorial Trophy ---
Jack Adams Award ---
James Norris Memorial Trophy --- Robert Gordon Orr
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy ---
Lester B. Pearson Award ---
Maurice Richard Trophy --- Valeri Kharlamov
Vezina Trophy ---
William M. Jennings Trophy ---


NB - Work in Progress

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Old
11-20-2007, 02:44 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Middleton View Post
Presidents' Trophy --- Oakland Seals
Jim Coleman Conference Trophy ---
Red Fisher Conference Trophy ---
Art Ross Trophy --- Wayne Gretzky
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) ---
Frank J. Selke Trophy ---
Hart Memorial Trophy ---
Jack Adams Award ---
James Norris Memorial Trophy --- Robert Gordon Orr
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy ---
Lester B. Pearson Award ---
Maurice Richard Trophy --- Valeri Kharlamov
Vezina Trophy ---
William M. Jennings Trophy ---


NB - Work in Progress
President's trophy was actually Aurora Tigers.

As for my nominations... Keon for the Lady Byng (could be considered for Selke as well), Bucko for the Calder, and Rocket for the Pearson. Quackenbush has a shot for the Lady Bing, too.

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11-20-2007, 02:46 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy - Stan Mikita (Nomination)
WWHHHATTT?!?!?!

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Old
11-20-2007, 06:16 PM
  #188
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Art Ross Trophy --- Wayne Gretzky (OAK)
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) --- ???
Frank J. Selke Trophy --- Craig Ramsay (VIC)
Hart Memorial Trophy --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Jack Adams Award --- Al Arbour (MON C)
James Norris Memorial Trophy --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy --- Frank Boucher (GUE) (he owns this trophy)
Lester B. Pearson Award --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Maurice Richard Trophy --- Mario Lemieux (NJD)
Vezina Trophy --- Dominik Hasek (NYR)
William M. Jennings Trophy --- Hasek/Peeters (NYR)

All-Star Teams

First Team: LW Bobby Hull (GUE) C Wayne Gretzky (OAK) RW Maurice Richard (SHE) D Bobby Orr (NAN) D Eddie Shore (OTT) G Dominik Hasek (NYR)
Second Team: LW Ted Lindsay (PPP) C Mario Lemieux (NJD) RW Guy Lafleur (VIC) D Ray Bourque (HAL) D Doug Harvey (BOS) G Turk Broda (MON C)


Last edited by shawnmullin: 11-20-2007 at 06:22 PM.
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Old
11-20-2007, 06:24 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
Art Ross Trophy --- Wayne Gretzky (OAK)
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) --- ???
Frank J. Selke Trophy --- Craig Ramsay (VIC)
Hart Memorial Trophy --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Jack Adams Award --- Al Arbour (MON C)
James Norris Memorial Trophy --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy --- Frank Boucher (GUE) (he owns this trophy)
Lester B. Pearson Award --- Bobby Orr (NAN)
Maurice Richard Trophy --- Mario Lemieux (NJD)
Vezina Trophy --- Dominik Hasek (NYR)
William M. Jennings Trophy --- Hasek/Peeters (NYR)

All-Star Teams

First Team: LW Bobby Hull (GUE) C Wayne Gretzky (OAK) RW Maurice Richard (SHE) D Bobby Orr (NAN) D Eddie Shore (OTT) G Dominik Hasek (NYR)
Second Team: LW Ted Lindsay (PPP) C Mario Lemieux (NJD) RW Guy Lafleur (VIC) D Ray Bourque (HAL) D Doug Harvey (BOS) G Turk Broda (MON C)
I said Bucko, but you can seriously make a point with Yuri Liapkin, too. I just completely forgot about him.

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11-20-2007, 06:26 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
William M. Jennings Trophy --- Hasek/Peeters (NYR)
Thank you! That's the one most coveted by a Shero team built on a great blueline core with help from physical and Selke forwards to keep goals against down.

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Old
11-20-2007, 06:46 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
Calder Memorial Trophy (Best first time ATD player) --- ???
Shadrin?

Has anyone kept track of all the first-time guys?

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11-20-2007, 06:49 PM
  #192
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Shadrin?

Has anyone kept track of all the first-time guys?
Shadrin would be my vote as well.

I don't like giving awards and All-Star team however, becasue it's the same old story, as the guys with theb est career will get the most recognition.

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11-20-2007, 06:52 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
William M. Jennings Trophy --- Hasek/Peeters (NYR)
The Raiders finished 4th on a division with a lot of offensive power. There's no way Hasek gets the Jennings.

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11-20-2007, 06:56 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
The Raiders finished 4th on a division with a lot of offensive power. There's no way Hasek gets the Jennings.
Most divisions have lots of offensive firepower. I imagine the Raiders won and lost a lot of 1-0 and 2-1 games.

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11-20-2007, 06:58 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Shadrin would be my vote as well.

I don't like giving awards and All-Star team however, becasue it's the same old story, as the guys with theb est career will get the most recognition.
It's true to an extent. I tried to be somewhat realistic about it. If Orr or Gretzky ended up on a team that finished 6th or 7th I wouldn't give them the awards.

That's why you don't see Plante or Roy getting goalie awards.

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11-20-2007, 07:07 PM
  #196
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It's true to an extent. I tried to be somewhat realistic about it. If Orr or Gretzky ended up on a team that finished 6th or 7th I wouldn't give them the awards.

That's why you don't see Plante or Roy getting goalie awards.
You're right, but I think it's clearly show the limit we can go as GM's. We can't give awards and we can't select all-star teams. Just trying to figure out which team is the best without icing them for real is one heck of a challange!

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11-20-2007, 07:08 PM
  #197
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I’m tempted to pick the obvious choices in each category. I’ll try to go for some unconventional choices where possible.

HART: Howie Morenz. Okay, I’ll admit that it was hard not to pick any of the big four, but Morenz is as good as any other player in history and is essential to his team. The Gladiators finished second in their division due to a high-powered offense based on speed and skill; not only does Morenz epitomize that style, but he was the most dominant offensive player in NHL history arguably until Gordie Howe hit his prime. Leetch and Kharlamov can’t carry a team on their own, but they can act as a great complement to Morenz and will boost his scoring totals (increasing his shot at the Hart). Morenz was also a fan favourite who could put fans in the stadium, which has traditionally helped players during MVP voting. In addition, Morenz was a great defensive player and was probably the best defensive forward on the team after Sanderson, so he helps brings balance to an otherwise offense-oriented team that’s merely average in goal.

Overall, I think Morenz’s importance to one of the best teams in the draft, his ability to epitomize their offense style while providing some defensive balance, and his ability to put fans in the seats, make him a good choice for the Hart trophy.

VEZINA: Dominik Hasek was the greatest regular season goalie in NHL history playing behind Alexei Zhitnik and Jason Wooley (sorry for mentioning undrafted players). He might be bored behind Stevens, Gadsby and Lapointe, but his GAA would be microscopic and he might break his own records for sv%.

NORRIS: Bobby Orr. It just doesn’t matter. Pitseleh’s team could be last in the league and Orr would still be the best defenseman.

ART ROSS: Wayne Gretzky, and I’m not just saying that because he’s the greatest offensive talent of all time. Gretzky is supported by a trio of speedy playmaking defensemen (Clancy, Cameron and Vasiliev) and has two of the most skilled and consistent players of their respective eras as linemates.

ROCKET RICHARD: Bobby Hull is the greatest goal-scorer in hockey history and he’s playing with an Oates-calibre playmaker in Boucher.

SELKE: Joe Klukay. Elite defensive forward? Yes. Able to play on the PK? Yes. Career high in goals and points (which often gets Selke recognition)? Playing next to Hull and Oates, yes. Member of a powerhouse team (which also helps get Selke recognition)? Yes.

JACK ADAMS : Pat Burns. Don’t shoot me; I’m not saying that Burns is the greatest coach in NHL history or anything like that. However, given that he took a team with an average blueline to first place in his division implies that he implemented a stifling defensive system without handicapping the incredible talents of Mikita, Schmidt, etc., too much.

LADY BYNG: Frank Boucher. Shawnmullin is right, he literally owned the trophy after 8 years. Nicklas Lidstrom also deserves about 4 or 5 Byngs in the real NHL so I wouldn’t mind him getting one here.

CALDER: Don’t remember too many first-time draftees offhand but it would be really tough to beat Vladimir Shadrin. He might be the best two-way forward in Russian hockey prior to Sergei Fedorov.

My team doesn’t fare too well in terms of trophies. Arbour is an Adams candidate, Jarvis is a Selke candidate and Potvin would battle it out with Bourque for the second spot on the 2nd all-star team. Maybe Ratelle’s a Byng canadidate. That’s okay, there’s only one trophy my players really care about.

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11-20-2007, 07:35 PM
  #198
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=444716

Am I the only one who feel like

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11-20-2007, 07:37 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
Most divisions have lots of offensive firepower. I imagine the Raiders won and lost a lot of 1-0 and 2-1 games.
My guess is Hasek the Vezina, and the Jennings... Call me crazy, Bernie Parent - Roberto Luongo.

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11-20-2007, 07:38 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=444716

Am I the only one who feel like
Well, you can make a point that Koivu will have his jersey retired if he brings the Cup, the Smythe, and scores on a 3-on-5 in the 3rd OT.

The jersey will be retired in 2045, that is.

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