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Greatest Player Ever

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Old
11-13-2007, 06:27 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
You said "offensive genius" .. which I took as offensive mind/ hockey sense. and in that particular area of the game Gretzky is unmatched.
I would say that Gretzky's numbers as a forward compared to Orr's as a defenseman say otherwise.

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Old
11-13-2007, 06:42 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I'd say so. For whatever reason he was able to provide good value to his team for six years longer than the other player. While one team had to go out and try to find a replacement, the other had nothing to worry about for six more years because of their player's longevity.
But his play was no greater so he could not be a greater player,that's a greater career. The player I would consider the greatest player is the player who has demonstrated that he can play the game at the greatest level. I don't care if someone does it at a slightly lower level for twice as long,that's a greater career or at the same level for a longer time,that's a greater career. The best example may be Gretzky is better than Lemieux because Gretzky played longer and more games but I'd say Gretzky is luckier than Lemieux but not greater. I'd say they play the game at an indistinguishable elite level,a notch below Orr because of Orr's overall game. One game for all the marbles and my first pick is Orr,the player I think plays the game at a greater level than anyone who ever played. My second pick is Lemieux. I guess I've reached burnout,thanks for all the responses that were civil.

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Old
11-13-2007, 12:18 PM
  #78
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SLIGHTLY OUT TOPIC

In yesterday's Journal de Québec, Quebec City's most popular (and worst) newspaper, a columnist was making his top 10 players ever.

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Bobby Orr
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Mark Messier
5. Jean Béliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Guy Lafleur
8. Gilbert Perreault
9. Marcel Dionne
10. Gordie Howe

After reading that, I felt proud of the level of knowledge people on this board have toward the history of the game.

That guy has been paid to put up one of the worst top 10 I've ever seen, not mentioning the omnipresent Quebec bias in our media. He left out Rocket saying he didn't see him play, so basically, it's his top 10 favourite players.

BACK TO TOPIC

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Old
11-13-2007, 12:32 PM
  #79
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4. Mark Messier
8. Gilbert Perreault
9. Marcel Dionne

How many players won a scoring championship on this list? Howe did it SIX times.

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Old
11-13-2007, 01:37 PM
  #80
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1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Messier

I still don't understand how one could say Gretzky isn't #1. I don't care what era he played in or any other crap. No one dominated and understood the game like he did and turned the record books inside out like he did.

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Old
11-13-2007, 02:02 PM
  #81
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Gretzky defense

For those of you who speak of Gretzky's lack of attention to his defensive game, consider this:

If Gretzky had said during the 1980s, "I'm going to focus on my defensive game this year", Sather would have probably had a heart attack.

Gretzky's job was to score and make plays, and he did this far better than any other player ever to play in the league. He did the most difficult and important job in the game other than that of a goalie, and was lightyears above every other player in the league. That is why I would say he was the best ever. (That and the 9 heart trophies, 14 all-star selections, 10 art ross trophies, 61 nhl records etc.)

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Old
11-13-2007, 02:42 PM
  #82
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I've been watching hockey for 40 years now.
Gretzky is the greatest forward I've ever seen.
But Bobby Orr is the greatest player.
Greatest that ever was, greatest that ever will be.

1. Orr

2. Gretzky
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. The Rocket

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Old
11-13-2007, 03:06 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
I would say that Gretzky's numbers as a forward compared to Orr's as a defenseman say otherwise.
If you still don't understand my line of thinking the discussion needs to end here.

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Old
11-13-2007, 03:32 PM
  #84
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Valery Kharlamov.

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Old
11-13-2007, 03:35 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
If you still don't understand my line of thinking the discussion needs to end here.
You're saying Orr had superior physical skills and Gretzky had superior offensive acumen and that would be why Orr's numbers are what they are. Gretzky's numbers were what they were despite being physically inferior to Orr because you say he was mentally superior in hockey sense. I'd say you were half right.

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Old
11-13-2007, 03:39 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
I would say that Gretzky's numbers as a forward compared to Orr's as a defenseman say otherwise.
Not even close. Orr broke the 100 point plateau as a defenseman five times in his career. Coffey did it five times, MacInnis did it twice, and Leetch did it once. Gretzky broke the 200 point plateau four times in his career. Lemieux came close to doing it once, when he scored 199 points, but beyond those two the next highest scoring forward was Steve Yzerman who topped out at 155. Keep in mind that the number of defensemen who can play in the league at any one time is essentially half of the number of forwards, making the 200 point club even more exclusive.

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11-13-2007, 03:54 PM
  #87
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Old
11-13-2007, 03:58 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Not even close. Orr broke the 100 point plateau as a defenseman five times in his career. Coffey did it five times, MacInnis did it twice, and Leetch did it once. Gretzky broke the 200 point plateau four times in his career. Lemieux came close to doing it once, when he scored 199 points, but beyond those two the next highest scoring forward was Steve Yzerman who topped out at 155. Keep in mind that the number of defensemen who can play in the league at any one time is essentially half of the number of forwards, making the 200 point club even more exclusive.
Two problems with that argument:

1) Orr did it during a much lower scoring era. To me, his relative dominance compared to other defensemen is more impressive (though you could argue that Gretzky helped make his era so high scoring).

2) Just because there are more forwards than defensemen doesn't it make more impressive if a forward did it. If we were to half the number of forwards in the league to match the number of defensemen, it'd be the guys at the bottom who don't compete for scoring titles, who get cut, not the guys at the top.

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Old
11-13-2007, 04:06 PM
  #89
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gretzky vs orr

"Orr did it during a much lower scoring era."

That is true, but he also did it on the best offensive team of that era, and one of the best ever. The Bruins of the early to mid 1970s were scoring more goals than most teams did during the 1980s.

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Old
11-13-2007, 04:41 PM
  #90
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Gretzky

I really think this says it all ....

Edit: I found this really interesting too ....

http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/gr...f-all-time.asp


Last edited by HabzFan4Ever: 11-13-2007 at 04:46 PM.
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Old
11-13-2007, 05:51 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Two problems with that argument:

1) Orr did it during a much lower scoring era. To me, his relative dominance compared to other defensemen is more impressive (though you could argue that Gretzky helped make his era so high scoring).
It's not as big a difference in era as you'd think. MacInnis and Leetch scored their 100+ points in seasons where scoring had dropped to pretty much the same as when Orr was playing his last years of healthy hockey, under 7 goals a game. It definitely wasn't the super-high scoring 80s. Against the inferior talent pool of the NHL circa 1975, they'd probably score even more points.

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Old
11-13-2007, 06:12 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
It's not as big a difference in era as you'd think. MacInnis and Leetch scored their 100+ points in seasons where scoring had dropped to pretty much the same as when Orr was playing his last years of healthy hockey, under 7 goals a game. It definitely wasn't the super-high scoring 80s. Against the inferior talent pool of the NHL circa 1975, they'd probably score even more points.
The difference to me is that when Orr did it, he was finishing at the top of the league. When Leetch and Macinnis did it, they were just in the top-10.

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11-13-2007, 07:28 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
The difference to me is that when Orr did it, he was finishing at the top of the league. When Leetch and Macinnis did it, they were just in the top-10.
Yeah, but he wouldn't have been finishing at the top of the league in the 80s/90s, Wayne or Mario would win the Art Ross every year, and in addition to that the league had more players on more teams and more offensive stars from more varied places compared to Orr's era.

And you talk about ''relative dominance'', but things changed too much and too fast for that to be of much value when comparing 99/66's offensive dominance over other forwards to Orr's over other d-men. Orr changed the game, there were no d-men that could compete with his offense at the time, and hockey was comparatively underdeveloped. The NHL had evolved 10 years later (largely thanks to Orr leading the way) and he wouldn't have been trouncing Paul Coffey's numbers like he was the d-men of the 60s and early 70s. At best he would have finished 2nd behind Gretzky or later 3rd behind Gretzky and Lemieux... but Coffey also managed to do both of those things. Orr's relative offensive dominance would have shrunk playing against the superior competition and new mentalities of the 80s and 90s.

And that's not a knock on him, that's a CREDIT to him... he changed the way of thinking to make it possible for other d-men to put up 100-140 points.

(note that I'm not arguing that Orr isn't the best d-man ever, offensively or otherwise, because he was

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Old
11-13-2007, 07:44 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Yeah, but he wouldn't have been finishing at the top of the league in the 80s/90s, Wayne or Mario would win the Art Ross every year, and in addition to that the league had more players on more teams and more offensive stars from more varied places compared to Orr's era.

And you talk about ''relative dominance'', but things changed too much and too fast for that to be of much value when comparing 99/66's offensive dominance over other forwards to Orr's over other d-men. Orr changed the game, there were no d-men that could compete with his offense at the time, and hockey was comparatively underdeveloped. The NHL had evolved 10 years later (largely thanks to Orr leading the way) and he wouldn't have been trouncing Paul Coffey's numbers like he was the d-men of the 60s and early 70s. At best he would have finished 2nd behind Gretzky or later 3rd behind Gretzky and Lemieux... but Coffey also managed to do both of those things. Orr's relative offensive dominance would have shrunk playing against the superior competition and new mentalities of the 80s and 90s.

And that's not a knock on him, that's a CREDIT to him... he changed the way of thinking to make it possible for other d-men to put up 100-140 points.

(note that I'm not arguing that Orr isn't the best d-man ever, offensively or otherwise, because he was
That's a fair enough point. It was definitely different before Orr. That said, I do feel as though you open a big can of worms if you start evaluting players compared to other generations on the premise that changes they introduced to the game would neutralize their advantage. For example, Clint Benedict was the first goalie to flop to the ice to make a save, which allowed him to be the best goalie of his generation. I think it's unfair to say that he wouldn't have been as dominant if he had played in the 30's because all goalies at that point went down to make saves. Similar cases could be made for Glenn Hall and the butterfly or Boom Boom and the slapshot.

It's also a fair enough point to say that Orr would have never won scoring titles with Gretzky/Lemieux in the league. At the same time though, I would say that it's unfair to Orr to make that point then say that Coffey was doing nearly the same thing (finishing second and third in the points race) when Coffey had the benefit of playing with Gretzky.

I will say that I don't have any qualms about people picking Gretzky as the best player of all time. In the end, all of these guys were incredible hockey players, and I don't think that there is a right answer to the question.

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Old
11-13-2007, 07:57 PM
  #95
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ABOUT #4


"The only reason those mistakes are more noticeable to you is that you
don't make them as often as the other boys."
(to a 12 year-old Bobby Orr)
-Bucko MacDonald, Orr's youth coach



"Kid, I don't know what you're getting, but it isn't enough."
(to Bobby Orr after one of his first practices in 1966)
-Ted Green, Bruin Great



"Why did Larry Bird, during the National Anthems, look up at the Boston
Garden Ceiling? No one knew until a night in 1988 when Larry Bird
explained to an audience that included Bobby Orr that what he was doing
was looking at Bobby Orr's retired number 4."
-Bob Ryan, Boston Globe



"You meet people now who say, I haven't gone to a game since Orr left."
-Fred Cusick,
Longtime Radio and TV "Voice of the Bruins"



"I like to call them the hockey Trinity - Gretzky being the son, Howe
being the Father, and Bobby Orr being the Holy Ghost, because he was
truly amazing." -Bob Mackenzie, Hockey News



"As the #1 attraction in the game today, young Mr. Orr figures to cause
a wave of insomnia among rival coaches. How do they prevent him from
making their antelope look like water-buffalo with a touch of hepatitis?"
-Milt Dunnell,
Toronto Star reporter



"If there were two dozen Bobby Orr's in this league, we'd have to erect
buildings that would hold 60,000."
-Milt Schmidt, Hall of Fame Center



"He makes the game look so easy that it's almost discouraging."
-Ken Hodge Sr., Former Orr teammate



"I would say I've never seen a guy who did as much offensively and
defensively as much as that young man did."
-Gordie Howe - "Mr. Hockey"



"I've seen all the greats since the 1920's, and I've never seen a player
with the skills of Orr." Clarence Campbell,
Former NHL President



"I know what he does to a team because I experienced it when we played
together in the Canada Cup. We were like a bunch of kids on a pond
waiting for someone to come along and organize us. When he walked in
the room, we knew we would be all right."
-Denis Potvin, Hall of Fame Defenseman



"If Bobby Orr has a problem, it's that he has no fear. If nothing else
will do, I swear he'll use his head to block a shot."
-Gerry Cheevers, HOF goaltender



"I'd give him my knees if it would help him play again."
-Don Awrey - Orr's longtime teammate



"We hated to check him. We respect him so much that we don't want to
do anything to damage those knees."
-Richard Mulhern,
Former Atlanta Flames defenseman



"Bobby Orr was a star when they played the National Anthem in his first
game." -Harry Sinden



"I remember one time he said to me when I was giving the team heck - this
is a true story - He came to me and said, 'Don, do you think when you're
giving the team heck you can give me heck a little too?"
-Don "Grapes" Cherry



"Too bad they don't have another league for him to go to. He's too good
for the NHL." -Bobby Clarke, HOF Flyer



"There's stars, superstars, and then there's Bobby Orr."
-Serge Savard, HOF defenseman


"I've never heard anything like it."
(referring to the wild ovation at the Boston Garden after an Orr goal)
-Toe Blake, Montreal Coach



"In the game today, Bobby would still be number one."
- Johnny Bucyk, Bruin HOFer



"He ought to get his name on the Vezina Trophy. He blocks more shots
than the goalies." - Phil Esposito, Bruin HOFer



"He's the first one up the ice and the first one back."
- Emile Francis, Rangers Coach



"You can say about each of the great players: He's a good skater, or a
good stickhandler, or he has a great shot, but something is always
missing. Bobby Orr has it all. He is the best I've seen -- ever!"
- Jacques Plante, HOF Goalie



"It's different from any other sport. You'd always get a real strong
argument about who's best in baseball or in basketball. But Orr is so
clearly the best in hockey. I don't know that there has ever been
anybody that so completely dominated a team sport."
- Ken Dryden, HOF Goalie



"His most effective thing is his skating. He can skate circles around me."
- Brad Park, Hockey HOFer



"He doesn't beat you because he's Bobby Orr; he beats you because he is
the best." - Glen Sather, GM/Coach/Player



"Orr is the greatest young hockey player that's come along since I've been
here." - Bobby Hull, Chicago HOFer



"I never knew a single player who could lift a team as Orr could."
- Stan Mikita, Chicago Great



"He's the best player for his age I've ever seen in my thirty years in the
NHL, and he's still getting better."
- Lynn Patrick, St. Louis GM



"I've never seen him when he isn't trying to live up to his reputation."
- Harry Sinden, Boston GM



"Bobby impressed me more than anybody."
- Gordie Howe, "Mr. Hockey"



"Well the first thing, when I saw Orr coming down on me, was to say a
little prayer, if I had time."
- Johnny Bower, HOF Goalie



"I think the greatest change in hockey, would be the arrival of Bobby."
- Jean Beliveau, Montreal Great



"He's got a lot of moves. He's got speed. He can make you look like a
fool, so you had to be careful."
- Jacques Lemaire, NHL Coach



"Everytime he was on that ice, the opposition would be playing a man
short." - Milt Schmidt, Bruin HOFer



"He was such a package of grace and elegance that you would get caught
watching him, then the horror would set in about what he was about to do
to you." - Bill Clement, Hockey Analyst



"The first game I ever officiated against the Bruins was the worst game I
ever officiated in my life, I spent the whole game watching Orr."
- Bill Beagan, NHL linesman



"I don't think you ever stopped Bobby Orr, you contained Bobby Orr, but
you NEVER stopped him!" - Larry Robinson, All-Star NHLer



"I might as well enjoy it (Norris Trophy) now, because I expect it's
going to belong to Bobby Orr from now on."
- Harry Howell, NY Ranger - 1967



"He is a tremendous role model. He is someone that I'd like my sons to
look up to." - Derek Sanderson, Orr Teammate



"The greatest hockey player who ever lived: Bobby Orr, and I love him!"
- Don "Grapes" Cherry



"If I can be half the hockey player that Bobby Orr was, I'll be happy."
- Ray Bourque, (about 1981)



"I've been gifted. The world is full of people who not only haven't been
gifted, but have had some things taken away from them. All I have to do
is see one of them, some little girl who can't walk, and then I don't
think I'm such a hero anymore. I think that compared to them, I'm a
very small article..."
- Bobby Orr, #4

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Old
11-13-2007, 08:04 PM
  #96
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Greatest ever was Gretzky....

Best is in this order....
1. Mario Lemieux
2. Bobby Orr
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Phil Esposito
5. Maurice Richard

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Old
11-13-2007, 08:19 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnerican View Post
Greatest ever was Gretzky....

Best is in this order....
1. Mario Lemieux
2. Bobby Orr
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Phil Esposito
5. Maurice Richard
Huh?

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Old
11-13-2007, 11:41 PM
  #98
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I think it's pretty unanimous as far as positions go.

Greatest forward - Gretzky
Greatest defenceman - Orr

Either way, I think it's 1 and 1a, however you decide. Third is probably Howe and then there could be arguments for many others.

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Old
11-14-2007, 12:08 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinalWord View Post
I think it's pretty unanimous as far as positions go.

Greatest forward - Gretzky
Greatest defenceman - Orr

Either way, I think it's 1 and 1a, however you decide. Third is probably Howe and then there could be arguments for many others.
Agreed -- Yet, it is interesting to speculate what might have been had they had an opportunity to go "head to head".

If you were drafting a team, who would you choose first...? I'd have to go with Orr because of his dominance in all three zones....

And it's difficult to argue with the old "five against five" adage --

Five Orr's would dominate five Gretzky's every day of the week because Orr was just as dominant defensively as he was offensively (+.91 plus/minus per game lifetime!) -- while Gretzky would probably be extremely effecient as a positional defenseman, he wouldn't dominate like Orr could (lacking Orr's physical traits and top end skating speed).

Purely hypothetical, of course -- and yet, there is no way ANYONE will be approaching Gretzky's statistical dominance anytime soon (if ever).

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Old
11-14-2007, 12:08 AM
  #100
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I find it absolutely ridiculous how underrated Lemieux is on some of the lists in this thread. Putting him any lower than top 3 is outrageous. I thought the HoH section was supposed to contain all of the forum's "most knowledgeable" posters?

1)Lemieux
2)Orr
3)Gretzky

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