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Habs fan seem to underrate desrving players!!

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01-15-2004, 07:00 AM
  #1
Habs4ever
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Habs fan seem to underrate desrving players!!

if you remember Dagenais was acquired just as wild pick by BG and he's paying off big dividends, he's done everything coach would expect player to do, and yet still many posters come in and talk about how he's just a filler and will go back to AHL, as you know Habs main weakness when season started was inability to score and he's exacly that scoring machine, and he's still young and didn't get fair shot until now. After Dagenais comes the Ward bashers saying how he's already reached he's potential, how could that be if that was the case then most of our prospects won't pan out, this is his first real season playing with big team and he's making it worthwhile, he's playing on PK, and has been playing great two way game, what more can you ask from first year player, if you go to CJ he'll tell you that WArd is as important as any top two line player, ya he doesn't score but he's got his whole career ahead to do that, right now he's adapting to NHl game and doing fine job at it, so how could you or anyone give verdict on him already, he could be great checker for us or even make second line if he's scoring touch comes to life. After Ward comes Ribeiro, from last year he's added more weight has been playing unbelievable hockey at such a young age, and he still has much more potential then this, so why can't fans root behind him, he's playing on par with Koivu so far and comparison to Koivu means a lot for young guy. Then comes the other groupe of bashers who talk about how Quintal is finished and all that, but results are contrary to those opinions he's been playing good defensive hockey, and has been great leader for the team, he's plus in ratings and has been very consistent all year, ya he got slow but he also has better understanding of game and has better decision making ability when making a play.

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01-15-2004, 07:35 AM
  #2
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I tend to agree with you. It gets tiresome reading post after post about the players on our team being place holders until the lads in Hamilton are ready. I like the way Dejanais has been playing, I think he and Riberio clicking quite nicely. They seem to know exactly where each other is all the time. I say let them progress together. Yes, his wheels might turn out to be his downfall. But on the other hand, he could turn out to be another Dave Andrahoweveryouspellhisname. Let's at least make sure we know what we have before we lable him a filler.

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01-15-2004, 08:01 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Fla15
But on the other hand, he could turn out to be another Dave Andrahoweveryouspellhisname.
25 - LW/C
Dave Andreychuk
Age: 40
Date of birth: September 29, 1963
Place of Birth: Hamilton, Ont., Canada
HT: 6-4 WT: 220
Shoots/Catches: R
Salary: $1,550,000
NHL Seasons: 21
Drafted by Buffalo in 1982 (1/16).
Acquired as a free agent in 2001.

GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
TOTAL NHL 1557 621 677 1298 +58 1095 4387 14.1 0.83

If Dagenais turn out to have half the carrer Andreychuk have, we are in buisness...

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01-15-2004, 08:08 AM
  #4
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A hot streak suddenly make our players more then what they are right?


Dagenais is an easy guy to replace, just like Perreault was. If Balej or Perezhogin scores some goals, who do you think will be the one without a job?

If Quintal gets injured and Komisarek outplays him, do you think he'll be back? These guys are fillers, tahts all, they get hot sometimes, they look terrible others. Its what inconsistent teams have. If Julien can make them perform everynight, imagine how it'll be with talented players. For example Ribeiro and Ryder who have been improving every game since the start of the year.

I've never been much of a Ward fan, I've put Ryder ahead of him all summer, he's a good 4th or 3rd liner, I don't see anything to get excited over.

These guys look better when your key players are performing, but everytime the team decides to take a night off, you'll see how bad they are. Personnally, I find that the best way to judge a player is when the going gets tough and these guys are those who look the worst when it does.

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01-15-2004, 08:09 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob ********
25 - LW/C
Dave Andreychuk
Age: 40
Date of birth: September 29, 1963
Place of Birth: Hamilton, Ont., Canada
HT: 6-4 WT: 220
Shoots/Catches: R
Salary: $1,550,000
NHL Seasons: 21
Drafted by Buffalo in 1982 (1/16).
Acquired as a free agent in 2001.

GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
TOTAL NHL 1557 621 677 1298 +58 1095 4387 14.1 0.83

If Dagenais turn out to have half the career Andreychuk have, we are in buisness...
Wow, DA has had an excellent career, I didn't realize his numbers were that good... so you are right, if he has half the success that DA has had we are in business!

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Old
01-15-2004, 12:29 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
if you remember Dagenais was acquired just as wild pick by BG and he's paying off big dividends,...
I don’t think we’re underrating our players at all. I think we’re being realistic and looking at the long term instead of the short term. The way you’re talking you seem to think the team has peaked and there’s no need for improvements. When we are critical of players like Dags, we realize that for this team to get better and to contend for Cups, players in certain positions are going to have to be upgraded.

Dags has been scoring for us, but not by any stretch of the imagination is he a guy that’s going to take us to the Cup. He’s may be a decent 2nd liner for a team squeaking into the playoffs, but would not have a spot on a contending team. Same with Quintal.

I’ll agree that Ward is an important player and has a long term future with the team, but only as a 4th (maybe 3rd) liner. You are kidding yourself if you think he can be a top 6 player. He can adapt all he wants but it will boil down to a lack of NHL caliber skills (skating, hands)

The jury is still out on Ribs. I personally can’t see him as a 2nd line centre on a contending team, but he could easily prove me wrong. He still lacks strength and his defensive play is pretty bad, but he has taken other elements of his game and improved them drastically (skating) so maybe he’ll prove me wrong.

I, for one, try to pass fair judgment on players no matter how well we are doing in the win column. If you look at the great teams, they are never satisfied with what they have (ie Colorado getting Kariya and Forsberg) and are always looking to improve. If we expect to take the next step as team ,we have to do the same.

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01-15-2004, 01:04 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Habber
The jury is still out on Ribs. I personally canít see him as a 2nd line centre on a contending team, but he could easily prove me wrong. He still lacks strength and his defensive play is pretty bad, but he has taken other elements of his game and improved them drastically (skating) so maybe heíll prove me wrong.
Just look at the stats, he is the 9th highest center in points. Right now he would be a good 2nd line center for any contending team.

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01-15-2004, 01:40 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob ********
GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
TOTAL NHL 1557 621 677 1298 +58 1095 4387 14.1 0.83

If Dagenais turn out to have half the carrer Andreychuk have, we are in buisness...
NHL 83 22 12 34 -4 24 177 12.4 0.41

.41/.83 it's pretty close to half

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01-15-2004, 02:13 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsaku
A hot streak suddenly make our players more then what they are right?


Dagenais is an easy guy to replace, just like Perreault was. If Balej or Perezhogin scores some goals, who do you think will be the one without a job?

If Quintal gets injured and Komisarek outplays him, do you think he'll be back? These guys are fillers, tahts all, they get hot sometimes, they look terrible others. Its what inconsistent teams have. If Julien can make them perform everynight, imagine how it'll be with talented players. For example Ribeiro and Ryder who have been improving every game since the start of the year.

I've never been much of a Ward fan, I've put Ryder ahead of him all summer, he's a good 4th or 3rd liner, I don't see anything to get excited over.

These guys look better when your key players are performing, but everytime the team decides to take a night off, you'll see how bad they are. Personnally, I find that the best way to judge a player is when the going gets tough and these guys are those who look the worst when it does.
hey buddy , Quintal is playing againts the first lines of the opposite teams , in the dangerous situations , and the first pk line ;and he's still have a + minus..and what ?you call him a filler ???

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01-15-2004, 02:37 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by MTLGuy
Just look at the stats, he is the 9th highest center in points. Right now he would be a good 2nd line center for any contending team.
I just hope it doesn't go to his head, and he keeps training in the summer to improve his weaknesses.

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01-15-2004, 02:41 PM
  #11
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Quintal is playing just fine for us. The only reason he's a filler is because he's a UFA this summer. Komisarek is not gonna outplay Quintal this year. Komisarek is still a couple seasons away from being a real impact player.

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01-15-2004, 03:46 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Habber
I donít think weíre underrating our players at all. I think weíre being realistic and looking at the long term instead of the short term. The way youíre talking you seem to think the team has peaked and thereís no need for improvements. When we are critical of players like Dags, we realize that for this team to get better and to contend for Cups, players in certain positions are going to have to be upgraded.

Dags has been scoring for us, but not by any stretch of the imagination is he a guy thatís going to take us to the Cup. Heís may be a decent 2nd liner for a team squeaking into the playoffs, but would not have a spot on a contending team. Same with Quintal.
What if, by any chance, Daganais hasn't peaked at 25 years old, and is still improving? Would that not upgrade that position on our club? The guys on the farm have not proved any thing at the NHL level, how do we know that Balej will ever be able to score on NHL goalies?. He has good stats at the ahl, but Gratton's are lots better, and no one has ever confused him with an elete NHL scorer. Perizhogin hasn't done anything anywhere yet. Daganais has one of the best shots that a canadiens forward has had for a long time, and he has scoring instincts too. Daganais is exactly the type of player a contending team needs, someone that can finish off what the rest of the team started. Sure he doesn't hit, but that doesn't mean he doesn't try. He is just terrible at it. He's not gritty, others are. Would he be usless on a bad team? No doubt. Is he usfull on this team? For sure. If he continues to improve his game, around that shot of his, we can potentually have a pretty good 1st line goal scorer on our hands.
I'm not saying I particularly like this type of player (big soft, offensive), but they do serve a purpose, because if no one can score, the team will loose a lot of games that they should have won.


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01-15-2004, 04:52 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLGuy
Just look at the stats, he is the 9th highest center in points. Right now he would be a good 2nd line center for any contending team.
Stats don't tell the story unfortunately. Ribeiro has played well, I have no problem giving him credit because he is putting up points. The reason he wouldn't be a good second line centre on a contending team is that Ribeiro can't match up against opposing top checking lines, nor can he match up against other teams top lines.

This is where I think Juliens strength lays. He gets Ribeiro out against fourth lines or weak third lines when playing 5 on 5 and gives Ribeiro a lot of PP time because that is his strength.

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01-15-2004, 06:36 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by Nash13
Stats don't tell the story unfortunately. Ribeiro has played well, I have no problem giving him credit because he is putting up points. The reason he wouldn't be a good second line centre on a contending team is that Ribeiro can't match up against opposing top checking lines, nor can he match up against other teams top lines.

This is where I think Juliens strength lays. He gets Ribeiro out against fourth lines or weak third lines when playing 5 on 5 and gives Ribeiro a lot of PP time because that is his strength.
Why would he have to line up against these lines if he was on a contending team? I think the coach would probably do the same thing with him. Plus, on a contending team, he would have better linemates who would either be able to break through the opposing team's checking line, or be good enough defensively to line up against opposition's top line, if need be.

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01-15-2004, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Breenger
Why would he have to line up against these lines if he was on a contending team? I think the coach would probably do the same thing with him. Plus, on a contending team, he would have better linemates who would either be able to break through the opposing team's checking line, or be good enough defensively to line up against opposition's top line, if need be.

Maybe I worded it wrong, but therein lies the proverbial catch. If he is a "good" second liner on a contender, why does he have to be matched up against weaker lines. If you are a good second line centre, you should be able to match up against opposing top lines as well as a teams best checking line. Also a contender means playoffs, opposing contenders such as Colorado, Detroit, Dallas(traditionally) have a great one-punch, or a supreme checking centre like NJ. Forsberg or Sakic (1a and 1b) whatever way you feel, Modano and Arnott.

Also take into the factor in Playoffs that powerplays are usually down. What we will see is Ribeiro having 13 minutes of ice time because of less PP time, and take into consideration the weaker lines don't play as much come playoff time so either Ribeiro plays less or faces other teams top lines which he has proven he can't handle. This also puts added pressure on your checking lines because they are no forced to play 20 minutes a night.

To me there is no way Ribeiro can be seen as more than an average second line centre (period)AT THIS POINT (note - if he adds strength/ consistency in effort and intensity, applies himself to defense, he could become a bonafide top centre) if he is only successful when facing fourth lines or second tier players.

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01-15-2004, 07:27 PM
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riberio's had a great year and all but as others have pointed out he wouldnt be a #2 on a legitimate cup contender.. think of it this way.. if we face the bruins again in the playoffs.. who's line is ribs gonna go up against? the rolston checking line ("historically" [as in, over the last bunch of seasons] considered to be a really "good to adequate shut down line" or the thornton line who get 20 some mins a game?
we need OUR shutdown line to face the thornton line.. but our shutdown line cant play that much or we wont score.. so that leaves either the koivu line or the ribs line to go up against the thornton line to try and score and the other line to face the rolston shutdown line... look at philly down the middle, JR (when hes not throwing a temper tantrum), Primeau (when not hurt), Comrie, Handzus, etc.. with the exception of comrie, all those guys have size and all of them have offensive skills, so even if thornton's line plays 20 mins a game, JR, Primeau or handzus would be able to step in and not only play strongly defensively in the philly zone but they can also step up offensively and not look lost.. the sakic/forsberg combo are strong in both ends of the rink as well as being obscenely talented

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01-16-2004, 01:59 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Nash13
Stats don't tell the story unfortunately. Ribeiro has played well, I have no problem giving him credit because he is putting up points. The reason he wouldn't be a good second line centre on a contending team is that Ribeiro can't match up against opposing top checking lines, nor can he match up against other teams top lines.

This is where I think Juliens strength lays. He gets Ribeiro out against fourth lines or weak third lines when playing 5 on 5 and gives Ribeiro a lot of PP time because that is his strength.
I can't see that Julien is playing Ribs only against 3 and 4th liners. If he does and Ribs still is able to play 15-20 minutes a game then Julien is amazing with his line changes and other teams are playing thier 4th lines way too much!

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01-16-2004, 03:22 AM
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Julien did a good job early this year of insulating Ribeiro. Lately though, especially in back to back games, his line is playing in the last 2 minutes. It seems he has improved as his role has expanded. One thing I noticed is Dagenais taking some faceoffs, is Ribeiro nursing an injury ? I don't know, it seems everytime I criticize our second line for a weak shift, and there have been a few, they put 2 in next period. Well, we wanted offense from him and we're getting it right now.

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01-16-2004, 04:27 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever
if you remember Dagenais was acquired just as wild pick by BG and he's paying off big dividends, he's done everything coach would expect player to do, and yet still many posters come in and talk about how he's just a filler and will go back to AHL, as you know Habs main weakness when season started was inability to score and he's exacly that scoring machine, and he's still young and didn't get fair shot until now. After Dagenais comes the Ward bashers saying how he's already reached he's potential, how could that be if that was the case then most of our prospects won't pan out, this is his first real season playing with big team and he's making it worthwhile, he's playing on PK, and has been playing great two way game, what more can you ask from first year player, if you go to CJ he'll tell you that WArd is as important as any top two line player, ya he doesn't score but he's got his whole career ahead to do that, right now he's adapting to NHl game and doing fine job at it, so how could you or anyone give verdict on him already, he could be great checker for us or even make second line if he's scoring touch comes to life. After Ward comes Ribeiro, from last year he's added more weight has been playing unbelievable hockey at such a young age, and he still has much more potential then this, so why can't fans root behind him, he's playing on par with Koivu so far and comparison to Koivu means a lot for young guy. Then comes the other groupe of bashers who talk about how Quintal is finished and all that, but results are contrary to those opinions he's been playing good defensive hockey, and has been great leader for the team, he's plus in ratings and has been very consistent all year, ya he got slow but he also has better understanding of game and has better decision making ability when making a play.
agree totally

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01-16-2004, 06:14 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Nash13
To me there is no way Ribeiro can be seen as more than an average second line centre (period)AT THIS POINT (note - if he adds strength/ consistency in effort and intensity, applies himself to defense, he could become a bonafide top centre) if he is only successful when facing fourth lines or second tier players.
there are 30 teams in the league, so , as an average second line center, Ribeiro 's numbers should be equal to the +- 45 th center's points ...by now , there are only 8 centers that have better numbers than him ...

And if you think that the other teams , don't know him by now , so that he 's playing only againts poor lines , you're absolutly wrong....common ! other coachs are not completly stupid to let Julien play him againts which line he wants ,game after game...

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01-16-2004, 06:28 AM
  #21
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i did a research to find what are the numbers of the 45 th center of the league (average second line center )

TREVOR LINDEN VAN C 46 8 15 23 ( Trevor Linden is the 122 th overall leader )

MIKE RIBEIRO MON C 45 11 26 37 ( ribeiro is the 27 th overall leader )...not so bad , for an average second line center...


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01-16-2004, 06:34 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by mark0v
i did a research to find what are the numbers of the 45 th center of the league (average second line center )

TREVOR LINDEN VAN C 46 8 15 23 ( Trevor Linden is the 122 th overall leader )

MIKE RIBEIRO MON C 45 11 26 37 ( ribeiro is the 27 th overall leader )...not so bad , for an average second line center...
Isn't Linden on the third line???

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01-16-2004, 06:54 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by mark0v
there are 30 teams in the league, so , as an average second line center, Ribeiro 's numbers should be equal to the +- 45 th center's points ...by now , there are only 8 centers that have better numbers than him ...

And if you think that the other teams , don't know him by now , so that he 's playing only againts poor lines , you're absolutly wrong....common ! other coachs are not completly stupid to let Julien play him againts which line he wants ,game after game...
There's a lot more to it than simply numbers though. Stats are fine and dandy but they don't tell the whole story.

The true test for Ribs will be down the stretch and in the playoffs where there will be a lot less room, a lot less PP time and D-men will be much more physical. I have my doubts that he can be effective in these games, but as I said before he could easily prove me wrong.

For these reasons, I think it’s still too early to pass judgement on Ribs until we see what kind of numbers he puts up through 82 games and see how he does when we go to war in the playoffs. Remember Perrault last year had 19 goals by Christmas, so we can’t get too excited about Ribs yet.

btw, Linden is on the 3rd line. Henrik Sedin is the Nucks 2nd line centre.

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01-16-2004, 07:04 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Habsaku
Isn't Linden on the third line???
may be, i just wanted to show what is the production of the 45 the center of the league ( if we say Ribs is an average 2 nd liner center so ,30 +15=45 )

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01-16-2004, 07:20 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
there are 30 teams in the league, so , as an average second line center, Ribeiro 's numbers should be equal to the +- 45 th center's points ...by now , there are only 8 centers that have better numbers than him ...

And if you think that the other teams , don't know him by now , so that he 's playing only againts poor lines , you're absolutly wrong....common ! other coachs are not completly stupid to let Julien play him againts which line he wants ,game after game...
Actually watch the games instead of spewing out stats. He has been and continues to be insulated by Julien. He rarely faces opposing top lines. Good coaches get their line combos. Its not game after game, as how you notice is that Ribeiro completely useless 5 on 5 for way too many games. There are still too many games that he is a passenger. Stats are nice to look at, but they are deceiving. He has racked up points versus bad teams and on the powerplay, but 5 on 5, he leaves a lot to be desired. That is what separates the "good" second line centres, and the average ones.

Again, he is getting the job done point wise, no body is disputing that. Until he proves to be able to play against top lines or shut down lines (which you would see he is doesn't do because Julien realizes his shortcomings), there is no way you can consider him a good second line center. That is just my opinion.

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