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Holy crap! (re: Gretzky)

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Old
11-12-2007, 02:49 AM
  #126
Squiffy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
I in no way meant to demean Mario or Orr. They were both huge winner's and great clutch players. But if you want to look back and debate how many regular season points Mario might have scored if he had not had injuries and played more and project partial seasons to full ones you miss the point. Cups are what matter. Playoff success even if you don't win the Cup matters more than regular season point totals.

Mario was not in the same position as Gretzky and Orr in terms of the team around him. they were good but not for quite as long. But Orr and Gretzky are very similar in the teams that they played on. The Bruins were good enough to be a dynasty. They were that talented, they were that deep, they were that good. 2 Cups is huge, a great accomplishment. There are many great teams that never won 1 Cup let alone 2. But those "Big Bad Bruins" could only win 2 Cups and they had a similar length of dominance with Orr as the premiere player in the NHL as Gretzky did on the Oilers. The Islander Dynasty was beaten by the Gretzky Oilers and a very strong Flyers team twice and the pretty good Bruins once. They lost to the Isles Dynasty and a very, very deep and good Flames team that was to win the Cup the year after Wayne left the Oilers.

The Gretzky Oilers were not facing weak teams to win the Cup.

The fact is few players in the NHL can be said to be responsible for a team winning the Cup. It is truly a team game. But a very few are so good they are at a level that the measure of Cups won or not won can to a degree be put on their shoulders. Howe, Rocket Richard, Bobby Hull, Jean Beliveau, Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr (together), Roy, Mario, Gretzky. They were that good at their best and with a good supporting cast can be responsible to a significant degree for their teams playoff success. Hull comes up short. Howe, Richard, Beliveau, Gretzky and Roy stand out as great and Orr, Espo and Mario won what they should have maybe but not as many as they possibly could have. Just my opinion.

In the playoffs it is not possible to say what Mario could have and would have done. Gretzky's stats (even on non-cup winning teams) speak for his greatness being higher than Mario's. Gretzky is a lot closer to Mario in the regular season then they are in the playoffs. Gretzky scored 20 points or more NINE times. Mario did it THREE times. Gretzky only won 2 Conn Smythe trophies but he could very easily have won 6 of them. 2 on losing teams.

Gretzky was 1st in playoff scoring 6 times, 3rd once, 5th once, 6th once, 7th once. Mario was 1st twice, 2nd once, 7th once, 8th once, 9th once.

If people want to keep bringing up what could have been regarding regular seasons then let's bring up the playoffs and what actually was. Gretzky had one season he wasn't over a PPG in the playoffs in his career. His rookie year he got 3 points in 3 games. After that he scored well over a PPG even after he was past his prime. Gretzky holds almost every single regular season record career and single season. He was even better than that EVERY SINGLE PLAYOFFS he played. He was a playoff monster. Want to see Gretzky's best hockey? Watch the playoffs, watch the Canada Cup.

I in no means want to diminish Mario in any way. He was awesome, he was a winner, he was the second best player I ever saw play in my life. Gretzky was the best.
That is one freaking amazing post sir. Good explanation of how very clutch Wayne was.

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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
He was a playoff monster. Want to see Gretzky's best hockey? Watch the playoffs, watch the Canada Cup.
This cannot be reiterated enough.

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Old
11-12-2007, 03:38 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
For iconic athletes of the last 100 years I have seven.....

In order of time:

1) Jim Thorpe
2) Babe Ruth
3) Jesse Owens
4) Ali
5) Pele
6) Gretzky
7) Jordan
Joe Montana kinda/maybe? I also think Tiger Woods could be on the list.

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Old
11-12-2007, 04:17 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
For iconic athletes of the last 100 years I have seven.....

In order of time:

1) Jim Thorpe
2) Babe Ruth
3) Jesse Owens
4) Ali
5) Pele
6) Gretzky
7) Jordan
what about federer

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Old
11-12-2007, 05:27 AM
  #129
Fish on The Sand
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Originally Posted by SectionX View Post
what about federer
he is obviously a dominant force, but he is not iconic. An icon is someone who not only transcends their sport, but pushes their sport to another level. If tennis ever had an icon it was Pete Sampras, not Roger Federer.

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Old
11-12-2007, 07:11 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
he is obviously a dominant force, but he is not iconic. An icon is someone who not only transcends their sport, but pushes their sport to another level. If tennis ever had an icon it was Pete Sampras, not Roger Federer.
Sampras won tournaments, but Agassi made tennis and Sampras huge in the late 80's and early 90's. Agassi was/is iconic. Sampras was a better player, but not iconic.

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Old
11-12-2007, 06:48 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
I in no way meant to demean Mario or Orr. They were both huge winner's and great clutch players. But if you want to look back and debate how many regular season points Mario might have scored if he had not had injuries and played more and project partial seasons to full ones you miss the point. Cups are what matter. Playoff success even if you don't win the Cup matters more than regular season point totals.
That's not what I was saying at all. My point was that playing in pain affects your performance. I'm not saying what if anything. I'm saying Orr and Lemieux's performances in the playoffs(and regular season for that matter) were hampered by pain.
Just throwing that out there as a possible factor for their 2 cup deficit...

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Old
11-12-2007, 07:56 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Gretzky was 1st in playoff scoring 6 times, 3rd once, 5th once, 6th once, 7th once. Mario was 1st twice, 2nd once, 7th once, 8th once, 9th once.
Gretzky and Howe both led the playoffs in scoring six times; nobody else has ever led the playoffs in scoring more than twice.

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Old
11-12-2007, 08:07 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by donelikedinner View Post
Sampras won tournaments, but Agassi made tennis and Sampras huge in the late 80's and early 90's. Agassi was/is iconic. Sampras was a better player, but not iconic.
maybe it was the combination of both of them that made the icon?

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Old
11-12-2007, 09:17 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Gretzky and Howe both led the playoffs in scoring six times; nobody else has ever led the playoffs in scoring more than twice.
In Howe's case, it's easier to lead the playoff points race when there are (albeit probably fewer games though) 15 less teams in the league. I don't know how the playoffs were done then, but fewer teams=fewer players=better chance of those stats. It's like winning a contest. The less people that enter, the higher chance you have to win.

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Old
11-12-2007, 11:42 PM
  #135
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by Professor Chaos View Post
In Howe's case, it's easier to lead the playoff points race when there are (albeit probably fewer games though) 15 less teams in the league. I don't know how the playoffs were done then, but fewer teams=fewer players=better chance of those stats. It's like winning a contest. The less people that enter, the higher chance you have to win.
Regardless of the number of series... leading the playoffs in points is a great accomplishment. Greater by far than leading the regular season in points.... even if there are 6 teams and only 2 series IMO.

I want to say.... I love Mario... he is the 2nd best player I ever saw play and he did things no one else could ever do. And I respect Orr and Howe and Richard and Beliveau... from their histories I have read about for a couple of decades.... from all the clips and highlights on TV I have ever seen. But Gretzky was the best player I ever saw.

I hate the fact that anyone would ever want to demean Gretzky or Orr or Mario or Howe.... they were all unbelievably great. Saying one is better than the others does not demean the others.. it just means you have an opinion... hopefully based on at least a bit of knowledge....

I have to say.... in almost every Gretzky vs Mario thread posters feel the need to attack the one they don't feel is better... I don't understand that... I don't get it.... how could you watch either and not think they were obcenely great?

It is like if I think Wayne is better... I saw what I saw, I bring up some stats... make some assumptions or arguments... and somehow I am demeaning or insulting Mario in arguning how great Gretzky was.... or insulting Orr....

Can't I favour one and love both? And also love Orr and Beliveau and Richard and Yzerman and Alfredsson and heck Ryan Smyth? Why can't I love and respect a zillion great players and not demean anyone by picking a favorite or saying I think one was a bit better than others?


Last edited by Sens Rule: 11-12-2007 at 11:51 PM.
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Old
11-12-2007, 11:46 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Chaos View Post
In Howe's case, it's easier to lead the playoff points race when there are (albeit probably fewer games though) 15 less teams in the league. I don't know how the playoffs were done then, but fewer teams=fewer players=better chance of those stats. It's like winning a contest. The less people that enter, the higher chance you have to win.
I don't know if I agree with that. True, the playoffs do have the problem of small sample size, but I think adding more teams would only marginally reduce the probabilities of leading the playoffs in scoring. I see it more like a race than a contest - if you go from the 10 best runners in the world to the 30 best runners in the world, there is a chance that one of the runners ranked #11-30 wins the race, but it isn't nearly as significant as a drawing for a contest.

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