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01-16-2004, 09:37 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
You're certainly not the only one. I see Tom Poti and visions of David Tanabe flash through my head and that certainly isn't a welcome escape. I'd much rather have Roman Hamrlik. He's Sean Hill with an decent upgrade on both sides of the puck.
i think there is a reason why hamrliks name is attached to every trade rumour out of li, as well as the majority trade threads out of the same area. i think he is a greast defenseman, but not part of a future core-i think poti could be. i dont think either trade would happen, so i guess i doesnt really matter.

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01-16-2004, 09:39 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
your opinion against mine, i like players you can build around long term.
I know what you mean in terms of wanting to get youth back. There is a three year age difference between the two though.. Nothing too monumental, in my opinion, considering the difference in all around game.

Quote:
wasnt poti almost leading scorer for the rangers ayear or two back?
He had 48 points a few years back, but four Rangers finished ahead of him in total points.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000482003.html

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01-16-2004, 09:48 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltsov71
I know what you mean in terms of wanting to get youth back. There is a three year age difference between the two though.. Nothing too monumental, in my opinion, considering the difference in all around game.



He had 48 points a few years back, but four Rangers finished ahead of him in total points.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000482003.html
thanks for the point clarification, i still thinks thats great production. i just like him, hes battled through a lot to make it this far, and i think he can be still improve more. i also know he is soft.... so what, put him with markov. i could be mistaken about poti and hamrliks ages as well, i thought hamrlik is about thirty, and poti about 25. i think 25/26 is just coming into your prime as a d, and at 30 youre already there.

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01-16-2004, 10:01 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodGundy
Must not have watched the 2002 play-off series with Montreal or Toronto.
i did and thats one of my reasons for it. he's a 0.5 ppg in the playoffs in 34 games all being after his breakthrough season.

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01-16-2004, 10:13 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by #44_delivers
i did and thats one of my reasons for it. he's a 0.5 ppg in the playoffs in 34 games all being after his breakthrough season.
you watched and still thinkhe wasnt a huge part of those wins? i cant agree with you there at all, stats or not. your stats will have no impact on his trade value.

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01-16-2004, 10:17 AM
  #31
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A big "hell no" on Poti. I watched some games of his with Edmonton/New York. No sir, you don't want that.

NYR Carter/Lundmark for CAR O'Neill/4th rounder works better for me.

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01-16-2004, 10:22 AM
  #32
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Well you guys can use the same old Canuck offer as a barometer of value on the boards anyways.

Sopel (not Allen.....we don't have a lot on the left side and Allen is the only good young d-man with size anywhere in our system), Umberger or similar, and King or similar, for Hill and O'Neill. It certainly makes sense from the Cancuks side and is a pretty good offer.
King should turn into a solid second line goal scoring winger.

Sopel is a top 4 d-man on 27 out of 30 teams in the league and is a RHS, and is outscoring Hill and Markov combined if you look at productivity per minute played (11th in the league among d-men in scoring). Sopel is only 6 months younger than O'Neill but is a d-man and is just entering his prime. You have a player that is going to be very productive for another five years at a minimum.

Umberger is worth at worst a second round pick (compensatory) if not signed, and I am sure he would do a sign a trade deal to get away from Vancouver.

Hill is a UFA but the Canucks would need him to replace Sopel in the lineup on the third pairing with Allen.

I could see the canes liking this offfer but countering with Allen, King and Umberger or Allen, Cooke. I could see a deal getting done for Sopel, King, and a first as has been suggested many times by two people on the nux board.

Other than the Canucks I think the Isles (defence), Montreal (young d-men and Hossa?), New Jersey (Berglund, White, first rounder?), Boston (Sammy?), Edmonton (young forwards), Phoenix (same and a d-man) and Buffalo (Kotalik, McKee and a pick?) as contenders.

I cannot see Colorado (why would they?), Detroit (what are they going to trade that Carolina wants?), Dallas (team in turmoil needs to figure out who they are going to keep around), or St. Louis (need D badly right now) playing. The Rags don't necessarily need a right winger, Ottawa is loaded on the right side, Philly has tons of depth at forward, LA has too many injuries, and San Jose is apt to ruin their chemistry.

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Old
01-16-2004, 10:38 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner
I could see the canes liking this offfer but countering with Allen, King and Umberger or Allen, Cooke. I could see a deal getting done for Sopel, King, and a first as has been suggested many times by two people on the nux board.

Other than the Canucks I think the Isles (defence), Montreal (young d-men and Hossa?), New Jersey (Berglund, White, first rounder?), Boston (Sammy?), Edmonton (young forwards), Phoenix (same and a d-man) and Buffalo (Kotalik, McKee and a pick?) as contenders.

I cannot see Colorado (why would they?), Detroit (what are they going to trade that Carolina wants?), Dallas (team in turmoil needs to figure out who they are going to keep around), or St. Louis (need D badly right now) playing. The Rags don't necessarily need a right winger, Ottawa is loaded on the right side, Philly has tons of depth at forward, LA has too many injuries, and San Jose is apt to ruin their chemistry.
edmonton wont pay oneill. i wouldnt mind a buffalo deal. i wouldnt take your canucks deal, king and sopel wont improve this team any, and the umberger thing is starting to sound like too much of a headache. if you cant give up a truly valueable player-oneill wont go there. they dont HAVE to trade him, so i cant see them taking the canuck offer. i think if buffalo wants oneill, it would be a good team to trade with.

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01-16-2004, 10:40 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHurricane16
A big "hell no" on Poti. I watched some games of his with Edmonton/New York. No sir, you don't want that.

NYR Carter/Lundmark for CAR O'Neill/4th rounder works better for me.
thats not bad, if carter gets back to how he used to be.

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01-16-2004, 10:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen
edmonton wont pay oneill. i wouldnt mind a buffalo deal. i wouldnt take your canucks deal, king and sopel wont improve this team any, and the umberger thing is starting to sound like too much of a headache. if you cant give up a truly valueable player-oneill wont go there. they dont HAVE to trade him, so i cant see them taking the canuck offer. i think if buffalo wants oneill, it would be a good team to trade with.

Sopel would not improve your team???? Are you kidding? Think about that for a minute.

Umberger is not a headache if he does not sign....he is a compensatory pick in the second round. If he does sign (and by all reports he is a good kid) you have a solid prospect that can skate, pass and score that needs to work on his intensity.

King has more goals than every player on your team not names Josef (only two or three points behind him) as a 22 year old rookie. That includes Jeff O'Neill. And he has done that while playing four less minutes a game than Vasicek. He is more productive per minute played than Vasicek AND O'Neill.

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01-16-2004, 11:09 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner
Sopel would not improve your team???? Are you kidding? Think about that for a minute.

Umberger is not a headache if he does not sign....he is a compensatory pick in the second round. If he does sign (and by all reports he is a good kid) you have a solid prospect that can skate, pass and score that needs to work on his intensity.

King has more goals than every player on your team not names Josef (only two or three points behind him) as a 22 year old rookie. That includes Jeff O'Neill. And he has done that while playing four less minutes a game than Vasicek. He is more productive per minute played than Vasicek AND O'Neill.
king has 3 ASSISTS SINCE NOVEMBER, that includes 0 "goose egg", zilch in december. please stop including him as a prize, he had a hot start and is now showing true value. two months ago-we all said lets wait and see-ive seen enough, no thanks.
the canes d has been top 10 all season, that why i say he doesnt really help. he helps for next year with all the older ufa's-but then he would be getting too many minutes. i thinks hes good, just not what the canes are looking for
except fora big ? (umberger).....wheres the beef? what is the big hook in this trade that makes you say....oh, thats why the canes traded their all star, leading scorer, top winger to the nucks. the canes need one big asset back for obeill, not a series of lesser ones you guys dont need.

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01-16-2004, 12:04 PM
  #37
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Don't get all snippy guys ... people like and dislike different players for their own reasons ... doesn't make 'em right or wrong.

Frankly, I can see Carolina dealing with Vancouver and I think Sopel and Umberger would at least raise the eyebrow of Jim Rutherford. Sopel mostly because he's the kind of d-man who would likely do well under Laviolette. He's not a bigtime offensive d-man, but he's got good all around skills and good size ... just the kind of guy Lavi likes. Umberger's stock rose pretty quickly after he was drafted until the problem with signing him arose. He's a big framed guy kind of like Primeau and could well develop into a solid power center. Rutherford likes the type.

King I can't see ... despite the production, nobody seems all that high on the guy and I haven't see enough of him to make a judgement. He's looked OK to me, but reminds me of a lot of forwards who score in spurts and then disappear ... Mark Parrish in his Panther days leaps to mind. There are plenty of those guys in Raleigh already.

To me the most telling factor would be dumping Hill, who does nothing for me at all right now.

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Old
01-16-2004, 12:32 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
you watched and still thinkhe wasnt a huge part of those wins? i cant agree with you there at all, stats or not. your stats will have no impact on his trade value.
sorry but i got to disagree with you on this one, it does make a diference on his trade value.
think about it and youll understand why.

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Old
01-16-2004, 12:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by #44_delivers
sorry but i got to disagree with you on this one, it does make a diference on his trade value.
think about it and youll understand why.
anybody who watched those series saw what he brings, which wasnt stats. he hits hard, he shoots hard, faces the other teams top d, plays with pain, hes emotional -all the qualities of a solid, rugged playoff winger. your stats reflect a d-first maurice mentality. nobody on this team scores a lot-doesnt mean they cant. ive thought about it, and i still think hes a playoff player any team wants. if he gets traded, i bet the other gm mentions how impressive oneill was in the 2002 playoffs.

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01-16-2004, 01:04 PM
  #40
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Just curious, but would a package from the bruins starting with Glen Murray be of any interest. They are both excellent snipers who are slumping a bit this year (Muzz not as badly as O'neil, but still). Add in a couple prospects who are pretty much ready for the show...maybe Zdenek Kutlak (d - should be atleast a good defensive 6th...excellent size and with some offensive upside...might end up to a more mobile version of Hal Gill) and your choice of maybe Huml or Zinovjev (both offensive forwards with different pros/cons). Maybe picks instead. Or a combination of the two. The big problem I see from the Canes POV is that Murray is UFA after this year, but he's only 3 or so years older, & makes about the same $$ (maybe a fraction less). Possibly expand the deal to include McGillis for Boughner (both UFA...hard hitters...McGillis has more O, while Boughner is meaner). Just currious. I really like O'Neil & Murray, but just think both kind of need a change.

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01-16-2004, 01:11 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by GA
Just curious, but would a package from the bruins starting with Glen Murray be of any interest. They are both excellent snipers who are slumping a bit this year (Muzz not as badly as O'neil, but still). Add in a couple prospects who are pretty much ready for the show...maybe Zdenek Kutlak (d - should be atleast a good defensive 6th...excellent size and with some offensive upside...might end up to a more mobile version of Hal Gill) and your choice of maybe Huml or Zinovjev (both offensive forwards with different pros/cons). Maybe picks instead. Or a combination of the two. The big problem I see from the Canes POV is that Murray is UFA after this year, but he's only 3 or so years older, & makes about the same $$ (maybe a fraction less). Possibly expand the deal to include McGillis for Boughner (both UFA...hard hitters...McGillis has more O, while Boughner is meaner). Just currious. I really like O'Neil & Murray, but just think both kind of need a change.
i like murray, but i thinkif the canes are trading oneill, its the white flag-they're rebuilding. that would mean the top players coming back are most likely younger players with higher potential, or higher end prospects. murray is in the opposite direction for that - if they were similar ages and ufa wasnt an issue-murray would definitely be a consideration. i agree they both need a change, i think boston is a likely destination for oneill, i just have no idea what the would get back.

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01-16-2004, 01:15 PM
  #42
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canes fans, what do you guys think of brewer? it would take a threeway trade-i cant see edm paying oneill. is he something you guys think is solid return? struggling or not, i think he would be a d to build around.

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01-16-2004, 01:33 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
canes fans, what do you guys think of brewer?
I think he would be a great addition to any organization.

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01-16-2004, 01:35 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner
King has more goals than every player on your team not names Josef (only two or three points behind him) as a 22 year old rookie. That includes Jeff O'Neill. And he has done that while playing four less minutes a game than Vasicek. He is more productive per minute played than Vasicek AND O'Neill.
Vancouver is also a much better team that has scored 52 more goals than the Hurricanes.

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01-16-2004, 02:03 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
anybody who watched those series saw what he brings, which wasnt stats. he hits hard, he shoots hard, faces the other teams top d, plays with pain, hes emotional -all the qualities of a solid, rugged playoff winger. your stats reflect a d-first maurice mentality. nobody on this team scores a lot-doesnt mean they cant. ive thought about it, and i still think hes a playoff player any team wants. if he gets traded, i bet the other gm mentions how impressive oneill was in the 2002 playoffs.
bit rough over view on this one, you cant tell me he has sound defencive game, and anybody who gets o'niell willbe looking at him to help there offence so that .5 ppg does hold ground. they certainly wont be getting him for the role you just posted.

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01-16-2004, 02:07 PM
  #46
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Can't stress the King point I have made enough - he got off to a fast start on a stacked team and likely won't even be an NHL regular. Like I said before, he probably gets moved at the deadline and the other team gets hosed.

Green, I agree with everything you said about O'Neill in the play-offs. Playing under Mo certainly skews the stats.

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01-16-2004, 02:09 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltsov71
Vancouver is also a much better team that has scored 52 more goals than the Hurricanes.
So King and Sopel are just leeching off the success of the team? Interesting logic. I suppose Jeff O'Neill having one of the top 10 players of all time passing him the puck has had no impact on his success.

Brent Sopel is THE top scoring d-man on the Canucks and a far bit better than any d-man on the canes (offensively...I would only put him behind Markov overall...and not by much....) or anywhere in their system for that matter as far as I can tell. I don't mind guys voicing their opinion on players they like or dislike but to dissmiss out of hand guys from top teams because the team they come from "is better" is moronic.

You can say the same thing about guys like Zidlicky and Walker (sp?) that play for a pretty talent weak club in Nashville and get more playing time than they would on a good club. So which is it?

Seriously weak logic IMO.

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01-16-2004, 02:12 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodGundy
Can't stress the King point I have made enough - he got off to a fast start on a stacked team and likely won't even be an NHL regular. Like I said before, he probably gets moved at the deadline and the other team gets hosed.

Green, I agree with everything you said about O'Neill in the play-offs. Playing under Mo certainly skews the stats.
Canucks a stacked team...King has been playing with a couple of guys that have never even scored 45 points. One of them MAY break that barrier but it is not like he has Ron Francis passing him the puck. The Nux may have some good top line players, but King rarely ever plays with them.

He is an NHL regular right now....apparently on a stacked team.

He is a rookie and rookies are inconsistent.

He would be in the top 3 in scoring on the Canes ad never had anyone as good as Brindy or Francis to play with.

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01-16-2004, 02:12 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodGundy
Can't stress the King point I have made enough - he got off to a fast start on a stacked team and likely won't even be an NHL regular. Like I said before, he probably gets moved at the deadline and the other team gets hosed.
It's not like he's floating or not getting chances, he is. Just nothing is going in for him. He looks frustrated out there and he should be. Another stint in the minors is probably best for him right now. In any case, King is a talented hard working young forward. He's a good skater, has a great shot, and has a nose for the net. He'll play in high traffic areas and take a beating to get a goal. King will be an NHL regular if for nothing but his strong work ethic.

Besides, how many rookies are expected to play at the highest level for an entire season? Not many, young players are inconsistent. Remember, this is only Jason's second pro season.

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01-16-2004, 02:44 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner
So King and Sopel are just leeching off the success of the team?
No, I didn't say that.


Quote:
I don't mind guys voicing their opinion on players they like or dislike but to dissmiss out of hand guys from top teams because the team they come from "is better" is moronic.
Either you misinterpreted my comment, or I worded it in a way that came off as dismissing King. Perhaps both. But in any event, I could do without the insults.

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