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If Stan Smyl had scored in `89.....

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Old
11-13-2007, 10:18 PM
  #1
reckoning
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If Stan Smyl had scored in `89.....

.....on the breakaway against Calgary in Game 7 in the first round, then Calgary doesn't win the Cup. How would that have changed the HHOF credentials of the following players:

Joe Mullen?
Al MacInnis?
Doug Gilmour?
Lanny MacDonald?

It seems ludicrous to think that one play could have that great an effect, but you take that Cup away from those players resumes and the lack of a championship may have became an albatross around their reputation. Considering that the Flames perennially lost in the 1st round almost every year after that, would say Al MacInnis be labelled as a playoff choker?

The other thing to think about is had Vancouver won, then Montreal would've likely won the Cup that year. Would an extra Stanley Cup be enough to push any of the following players into the Hall:

Bobby Smith?
Guy Carbonneau?
Claude Lemieux?
Mats Naslund?

It's strange that a play involving Stan Smyl and Mike Vernon could affect the legacy of so many other players.

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Old
11-13-2007, 10:22 PM
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Trebek
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Joel Otto.

No, I'm not bitter.

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Old
11-13-2007, 11:03 PM
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Roy would have won another Conn Smythe

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Old
11-13-2007, 11:21 PM
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LOL.

It was Stan Smyl. He played for the Canucks.

It was impossible for him to score, the hockey gods would never allow it.

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11-14-2007, 05:48 PM
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Vancouver, IMO, would have gotten DEMOLISHED by Gretzky's Kings in the Smythe Division Finals.

After all, they WERE a sub-.500 team.

One hotshot rookie and a good goalie can't singlehandedly lift a mediocre team to such grand heights.

Another thing: with basically the same team, they finished as hockey's worst team in 1990.

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11-14-2007, 06:26 PM
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Alan Jackson
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Joel Otto.

No, I'm not bitter.
I wonder if Otto played soccer as a kid?

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Old
11-14-2007, 06:37 PM
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vancityluongo
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LOL.

It was Stan Smyl. He played for the Canucks.

It was impossible for him to score, the hockey gods would never allow it.
Too true.

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Old
11-14-2007, 09:41 PM
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Big Phil
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MacInnis would have been a lock no matter what. Norris winner in '99. 7 times voted to the 1st or 2nd all-star team, 2002 Gold Medal and on and on, 1991 Canada Cup winner............

Mullen? Hmmm. Good one that 1989 season in general is what I consider putting him over the hump for the Hall of Fame. Without a Cup and the stellar play he had in the spring of that year it may have been easier to overlook him. Then again he still won two Cups in Pittsburgh and was the first US player with 500 goals so it may not have mattered

McDonald? Tough one too. He scored only one goal that playoff so either way he wasnt a huge factor. But I think he cemented his status as a HHOFer the years earlier with Calgary and Toronto

Gilmour. Some people argue he isnt even a Hall of Famer now. So take away his one Cup win and it might be something else for his critics to salivate over. I would have put him in still but the mark of a champion in peoples minds is underrated

Out of the Canadiens players only Carboneau may have gotten more love. Smith and Naslund definite no to them. Lemieux its hard to say, but he wasnt all that good in the '89 playoffs as it was. He was always too streaky. Carboneau won 3 Selkes, two Cups, and is already being pimped by many as a Hall of Famer. Another Cup would have given him more support

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Old
11-15-2007, 12:23 PM
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I think Carbo and Lemieux should both be in. Carbo has 2 cups in Mtl and 1 in Dallas. 3 Selke. Captain one team to the cup. What more was there for him to accomplish. The guy was one of the most complete hockey players ever to play the game.

Lemieux is just that missing ingredient that every contender needed to win the cup. Tough to play against, did the dirty jobs, in everybody's face and score the winning goal.

Smith and Naslund were nice players but no.

MacDonald, MacInnis, Mullen still make it to the Hall. Mullen won cups in Pittsbugh and was the highest scoring American for how many years. MacInnis was voted in this year. With all the competition to get in. No doubt he still makes it in. MacDonald, even if anyone thinks he isn't worthy, the Toronto votes alone would be enough to get him in. Gilmour isn't in now, would make it harder for mhim to get in.

Chelios would have a second cup also to add to his Norris trophies. He's going in anyways, this would just cement it more. Robinson and Gainey were already going in and would now have an extra cup.

A guy like Stephane Richer might even get a few votes. He would have 2-50 goal seasons, over 400. Three cups, by my count. 86, 89, 95. I don't think he'd get in but would get a couple of votes. Eric Desjardins would have 2 cups to go with a stellar career and participation in Canada Cup tournament etc. Craig Ludwig is another that would finish with more than 2 cups with 2 in Mtl and 1 in Dallas.

I'm not so sure if Roy wins the mvp that year if Mtl wins the cup. My vote would have gone to Chelios. 21 games, 4 goals 15 assists and 19 points. Took Phillies, at least Ron Hextall's concentration away for one series. Either Roy or Chelios, you couldn't go wrong with.

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11-15-2007, 02:48 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Joe Mullen almost certainly would have made the HOF anyway because he had the other cups with pittsburgh and finished as the first american with 500/1000. doesn't deserve to be there, though.

Al MacInnis lack of a cup might have cost him first ballot, but he'd have made it in next year. like niedermayer, he's won all the other big trophies (memorial cup, canada cup, olympic gold), and he was so good in the '86 playoffs; plus, you know, all the first-team all star finishes and the norris.

Doug Gilmour without that cup, gilmour becomes wendel clark. it's not fair, as gilmour had a much more brilliant career, but most have long forgotten about those great st. louis years early on, and those two great years in toronto overshadow how important he was to those two flames teams that made it to the finals. take away the cup and gilmour's calgary years are forgotten.

Lanny MacDonald i already tend to believe that he's not really a hall of famer. lanny, like joe mullen and like federko, gillies, etc., got in during some lean years. still, if he'd retired as co-captain of the best team in the league that flamed out in the first round, i can't imagine he'd get too many HOF votes.

Bobby Smith i still don't know how federko got in while bobby smith didn't. smith is basically the same player but with a cup. still, hard to argue that he deserves to be in the hall.

Guy Carbonneau i tend to think carbonneau is already a hall of famer (after a few more years of waiting). give him another cup (as co-captain), and he'd probably have a lot more mainstream support.

Claude Lemieux another guy that i tend to think is a hall of famer already. give me carbonneau and lemieux over federko, mullen, macdonald, or roenick or turgeon or modano or any of your mid-range 1,000 point scorers anyday.

Mats Naslund i'm not that familiar with his international career, so it's hard to say. based on his NHL accomplishments, though, it's hard to make a case for mats (or hakan loob, his calgarian counterpart).

stephane richer can't imagine anybody touting his name, even if he'd won a third cup. there's the turgeon-stigma on richer -- all the talent in the world, but the sense he could have been so much more. he was kind of the anti-robitaille.

eric desjardins that's a hard one. like a lot of others, i've almost completely forgotten about this guy. there was a time when it looked like the last generation of defencemen was going to go 1. lidstrom 2. pronger 3. blake 4. desjardins. now it looks like niedermayer has surpassed desjardins and blake. still, as clearly as i still remember desjardins in '93 (especially scoring that hat trick goal in OT), it's tough to give him too much credit for being a bottom pair rookie call up on a cup winner -- especially when there was a rookie on the other team who stole the show.

other names-- fleury, vernon... and what about patrick roy? if the habs win in '89, there's no way rejean houle trades a three time conn smythe winner. tremblay would have been fired on the spot for pulling what he did. and if roy never leaves, there's probably no '96 or '01 -- which affects the legacies of ray bourque, rob blake, and... claude lemieux again.

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Old
11-15-2007, 02:54 PM
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I won't comment on any guy except Lemieux. I cannot say what makes him a HoFr at all. Mediocre seasons, on other teams he wouldn't have gotten a cup at all.

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11-15-2007, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post

Chelios would have a second cup also to add to his Norris trophies. He's going in anyways, this would just cement it more. Robinson and Gainey were already going in and would now have an extra cup.
3rd

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11-15-2007, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
Mats Naslund i'm not that familiar with his international career, so it's hard to say. based on his NHL accomplishments, though, it's hard to make a case for mats (or hakan loob, his calgarian counterpart).
He was together with Håkan Loob and Tomas Jonsson the first first player to join the Triple Gold Club (Stanley Cup Champion, Olympic Champion and World Champion), which got 19 members now. He is also one of three people (Loob and Jonsson are the other ones) that is in the Triple Gold Club and has been Swedish Champion. Add for example a Canada Cup silver medal to that.

With that being said though, I don't think he would have made it into the HHOF with another Cup.

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Old
11-17-2007, 04:47 PM
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MS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
.....on the breakaway against Calgary in Game 7 in the first round, then Calgary doesn't win the Cup. How would that have changed the HHOF credentials of the following players:

Joe Mullen?
Al MacInnis?
Doug Gilmour?
Lanny MacDonald?

It seems ludicrous to think that one play could have that great an effect, but you take that Cup away from those players resumes and the lack of a championship may have became an albatross around their reputation. Considering that the Flames perennially lost in the 1st round almost every year after that, would say Al MacInnis be labelled as a playoff choker?

The other thing to think about is had Vancouver won, then Montreal would've likely won the Cup that year. Would an extra Stanley Cup be enough to push any of the following players into the Hall:

Bobby Smith?
Guy Carbonneau?
Claude Lemieux?
Mats Naslund?

It's strange that a play involving Stan Smyl and Mike Vernon could affect the legacy of so many other players.
MacDonald is the player whose legacy it would have hurt the most. Went out on the biggest, most popular high probably of any player ever, and rode that through his HHOF induction a few years later. But really had a borderline career otherwise - eked over 500 goals and 1000 points with some pretty shoddy years near the end of his career, no major awards, no Cup otherwise, no international success, no 100-point seasons in a ridiculously offensive era, only once top-10 in scoring. I don't think he would have made it, and would be in the same position as a guy like Rick Middleton now, who had a very similar career.

Gilmour to an extent as well, although his career totals and top-5 MVP seasons would probably still hold him in good stead.

MacInnis would still be a no-brainer, and I'm guessing Mullen would have made it as well given his other Cups in Pittsburgh.

Of the Montreal guys, Smith is the only I could potentially see it pushing over the top.

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Old
11-17-2007, 05:14 PM
  #15
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
.....on the breakaway against Calgary in Game 7 in the first round, then Calgary doesn't win the Cup. How would that have changed the HHOF credentials of the following players:

Joe Mullen?
Al MacInnis?
Doug Gilmour?
Lanny MacDonald?

It seems ludicrous to think that one play could have that great an effect, but you take that Cup away from those players resumes and the lack of a championship may have became an albatross around their reputation. Considering that the Flames perennially lost in the 1st round almost every year after that, would say Al MacInnis be labelled as a playoff choker?

The other thing to think about is had Vancouver won, then Montreal would've likely won the Cup that year. Would an extra Stanley Cup be enough to push any of the following players into the Hall:

Bobby Smith?
Guy Carbonneau?
Claude Lemieux?
Mats Naslund?

It's strange that a play involving Stan Smyl and Mike Vernon could affect the legacy of so many other players.

Good question....
Lanny and Killer might have suffered for sure. In fact... I think Killer will get (somewhat controversially) in... But with no Cups... I can see some voters vote for him anyways, but it would scream TORONTO BIAS everywhere should he get in without Cups. Such thing might happen now, so just imagine if Killer have no Cups.

Lanny is a borderline case who got in with a perfect off-the-ice resume. 50 years removed, when we'll see Lanny in and Glenn out, many will wonder "what happened?", a bit like we do with Edgar Laprade and Leo Boivin. Changes nothing for Chopper and Mullen, as they got their reputation for other reasons.

For the Habs... Naslund remains out. A bit for the same reasons Reijo Ruotsalainen is out (not exactly the best reasons, but let's just both do not have the longevity or the international resumes needed to get in. Naslund's career was about twice longer than Reijo in NA, but it's not like nobody ever CONSIDERED Reijo, while Naslund was probably whispered amongst voters). Adds A LOT of credidentials to Carbo : 3 cups, defensive specialist elite... The voters have already their reasons to vote against Lemieux, and it doesn't have anything to do with Playoff resumes, so I don't think it changes anything (I'm not saying he won't get in : just that people voting for Lemieux inducts him on one basis, and people who votes against him keeps him out one 1 basis : one more Cup doesn't change anything for him). Smith... Well... I think he would benefits as much as Carbo. Adds a 2nd Cup, but he also had 2 conference titles, and everytime as the best C of his team (except in 1990, in which he come out HUGE in Minny). Would definitely not be the best HOF induction for sure, but considering the role he had on the teams he were on... Maybe... Better than Bernie Federko in every aspects IMO.


Last edited by MXD: 11-17-2007 at 05:20 PM.
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