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ATD#8 Jim Robson Round 1: #4 New York vs. #5 Portage la Prairie

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Old
11-21-2007, 07:26 PM
  #26
vancityluongo
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One small, small, minor thing I noticed: VanI, you have Parise on the right side for your PK. Might wanna switch that up. Other then that, I see a close series, with a lot of OT games.

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11-21-2007, 07:35 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
One small, small, minor thing I noticed: VanI, you have Parise on the right side for your PK. Might wanna switch that up.
penalty kill units listed as centre-winger-defense-defense

Brind'amour listed first as the face-off man on the second unit.

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11-21-2007, 07:39 PM
  #28
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penalty kill units listed as centre-winger-defense-defense

Brind'amour listed first as the face-off man on the second unit.
Ah okay, gotcha.

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11-21-2007, 09:36 PM
  #29
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Lach was ever the best defensive forward in the league? if there had been a Selke award he would have won it?

Raiders penalty killing forwards were brilliant (not merely good) at that, and Raiders' powerplay crease crashers (as well as those who could muscle toward the net) and pp defensemen are better.

The difference in special teams seems obvious to me. *shrug* I have said more than enough on the matter and those who read the posts can decide for themselves either way.
I don't need to reiterate word-for-word what BM67 posted, but suffice it to say, when a hard-ass coach like Dick Irvin values a 2-time Art Ross winner like Lach more for his defense than his offense, he must be pretty spectacular in his own end.

From the '51 playoffs:

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Canadiens were sparked by Richard, while Elmer Lach checked hard and Ken Mosdell, Floyd Curry, rookie Eddie Mazur, Paul Meger, Paul Masnick, Doug Harvey, Butch Bouchard, Tom Johnson, Bud MacPherson, Billy Reay and last but far from least, Gerry McNeil, were outstanding in a cause that was not to be theirs.
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/hock...key_id_nbr=123

Why mention that about Lach and not about the likes of great checkers like Mosdell, Harvey, and Johnson if he hadn't been especially good at it?

From Golden Ice: The Greatest Teams In Hockey History, describing a playoff match-up from '46:

Quote:
Elmer Lach, who was regarded as the number-two center in the league after Bill Cowley, took care of the ratings by crashing the Bruin, Cowley, to the ice with a heavy body check. Cowley left the rink with a compound fracture of the wrist.
From the same series:

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"In a violent rush," commented Kerr N. Petrie in the New York Herald Tribune, "Elmer Lach smashed through the Rangers' defense and forced the opening. Blake salvaged the puck and will remember the game it won for many years to come."
And now a word from an opponent who should know plenty about Lach, courtesy of a nice little uncut interview on the Hockey's Greatest Era: 1942-67 DVD:

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Elmer was a very good hockey player to play against because you didn't have to worry too much about any dirty deals or anything like that. Except once in awhile, at the beginning you'd face off and he'd have a saying, "Hi there, how are you?" and I'd say "Hi Elmer, how are you?", the puck would drop and *BINGO* I'd get nailed and I'd say "Ohhh Elmer, is that how it's gonna be?" (laughs)...but he was a sound hockey player, very sound, both defensively and offensively...we always played against each other too.

- Milt Schmidt
So you want the voters to believe that Lach couldn't hang with the Raiders, who outside of Lindros don't have near as much "surging power" on offense as you make them out to have (your forwards are generally more scrappy than juggernautish, as are mine outside of Bill Cook), but he could level a player as tough as Schmidt?

Really, the man lined up regularly against Milt, and earned his high praise for his defensive ability. Doug Gilmour isn't going to scare or overpower him, not by a long shot.

Finally, I have to take issue with your contention that your PP crease crashers and defensemen are any better than mine. Provided we're giving each era equal emphasis (which to me is expected in an All-Time Draft), I don't suffer at all in comparison.

Bill Cook > Eric Lindros. He is. Deal. Cook wasn't as physically dominant as Lindros (though still a very powerful PF), but he was a more prolific scorer, better leader, and a better clutch player.

Lindsay > Ciccarelli. This isn't even close in any respect, nor should it require explanation.

Aurie = Andreychuk. And really, everywhere else but on the PP, Aurie's better. As I showed in my earlier quote, Aurie always set up shop in front of the oppostion's net, and could handle defensemen 40-50 pounds heavier. Considering his scoring was more impressive than Andreychuk's and they both took up the same office, I'd say this is a wash.

Your offense isn't intimidating. In fact, I'd say that you spent so many of your higher picks on shoring up the defensive aspect of your team that you neglected filling out your wings adequately. In all honesty, I can say that my 3rd line wingers are better than your 1st line wingers, and your centers aren't of a high enough caliber to compensate.

As for PP defensemen, I have Didier Pitre on the point, the 3rd highest scorer in NHA history (behind only Lalonde and Malone in goals and points), owner of a renowned and fearsome shot; Eddie Gerard, a puck distributor extraordinaire and the NHA's all-time assist leader; Sprague Cleghorn, the 2nd highest scoring defenseman of his era; and Eddie Ivanov, a defenseman so effective on offense that he could allow Tarasov to experiment with his system and subsequently become the only defenseman in Olympic history to win "Top Forward" honours.

Scoring from the back end is not going to be a problem. My only downfall would be if the voters chose to give greater weight to different eras, as is often the case with Original 6 players.

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11-21-2007, 09:39 PM
  #30
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I love that Schmidt quote on Lach.

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11-21-2007, 09:43 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I love that Schmidt quote on Lach.
Haha, me too. Milt Schmidt's one helluva storyteller.

I picked up the DVD for just $6.99 (you should be able to find it at any music store that sells DVDs), and besides the documentary itself, there are 45 minute uncut interviews with Schmidt, Lach, Beliveau and Lindsay as extras. Great bang for my buck.

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11-21-2007, 09:47 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/hock...key_id_nbr=123

Why mention that about Lach and not about the likes of great checkers like Mosdell, Harvey, and Johnson if he hadn't been especially good at it?
You have a point there, but I can somewhat answer for part of the question : Tom Johnson wasn't exactly good at this point of his career ; from legendsofhockey.

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Johnson stepped into a starting role with the Habs in 1950-1951 and impressed them with his eagerness and durability in playing all 70 regular-season games. He was, however, vulnerable to common rookie mistakes such as hasty decision-making and taking unwise penalties.
As evidenced by his MUCH higher PIM's for that year.

That doesn't explain why they give a precision about Lach, but it can explain why Johnson didn't get any. This was the twilight of Lach's career, so maybe checking was the thing he could do with the most effectiveness. This said... considering the rather good season he had that year, and the excellent one he had thereafter, we can safely assume it wasn't the case.

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11-21-2007, 09:50 PM
  #33
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You have a point there, but I can somewhat answer for part of the question : Tom Johnson wasn't exactly good at this point of his career ; from legendsofhockey.
Ahh, very interesting. Johnson's the type I'd have just assumed to be sturdy and reliable throughout his career.

Thanks for the insight.

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11-21-2007, 09:56 PM
  #34
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Haha, me too. Milt Schmidt's one helluva storyteller.

I picked up the DVD for just $6.99 (you should be able to find it at any music store that sells DVDs), and besides the documentary itself, there are 45 minute uncut interviews with Schmidt, Lach, Beliveau and Lindsay as extras. Great bang for my buck.
I already have it. I live in the Boston area at present & I don't think they realize what an incredible resource Milt is. Somebody needs to sit down withh Milt & a recorder & write a book.

They did do neat interview show here a few year's ago with Orr, Park & Bourque who all crossed paths on the B's defense. Too bad Eddie Shore was not available.

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11-21-2007, 10:01 PM
  #35
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I already have it. I live in the Boston area at present & I don't think they realize what an incredible resource Milt is. Somebody needs to sit down withh Milt & a recorder & write a book.
Absolutely. Too bad there isn't much demand for this type of thing among the general public. It'd be nice if there were some sort of special archival society to preserve recollections like his for posterity. Like legendsofhockey, but a little more thorough.

Quote:
They did do neat interview show here a few year's ago with Orr, Park & Bourque who all crossed paths on the B's defense. Too bad Eddie Shore was not available.
Sounds compelling. I don't suppose you have it online?

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11-21-2007, 10:23 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
Absolutely. Too bad there isn't much demand for this type of thing among the general public. It'd be nice if there were some sort of special archival society to preserve recollections like his for posterity. Like legendsofhockey, but a little more thorough.



Sounds compelling. I don't suppose you have it online?
Nope. wish I did. AS I remember, the theme that came through was that their coaches gave them free rein to go on the attack.

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11-21-2007, 10:30 PM
  #37
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exceptional? one of the best of all time? ...

please provide evidence of his superior penalty killing ability

this is very frustrating

... aw forget it... the bias in favour of old timers based on little evidence has now outweighed the bias against
I would say that the statements posted by pappy and BM, especially the testimony from one of the true all-time greats (Milt Schmidt, who knew a thing or two about great all-round play) is pretty good for evidence. He was a stellar two-way player with great hockey sense. THN had him in their top 100. When underrated players are discussed in the History of Hockey section, Lach's name is one of the first that comes up.

I don't think there's any bias towards old-time players. In fact, I still say there's a bias towards current or recent players, because those are the ones we've seen. It's diminishing, but it's still there.

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11-21-2007, 11:55 PM
  #38
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Raiders g.m. VanIslander is quoted by unnamed sources to have given up any hope of winning the cup and quits before his board can fire him, but not before he fires coach Shero for delivering an average regular season for a coach expected to win nearly 80% of the games. A scrub assistant coach takes over the team.

"This is not my year," the outgoing g.m. has stated. "Perhaps I should just go back to the minors where I belong."

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11-22-2007, 12:37 AM
  #39
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Geez you'd think the voting was over

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11-22-2007, 06:56 AM
  #40
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Raiders g.m. VanIslander is quoted by unnamed sources to have given up any hope of winning the cup and quits before his board can fire him, but not before he fires coach Shero for delivering an average regular season for a coach expected to win nearly 80% of the games. A scrub assistant coach takes over the team.

"This is not my year," the outgoing g.m. has stated. "Perhaps I should just go back to the minors where I belong."
So who's your coach now? In my opinion Reggie Dunlop is the obvious choice there. The guy knows a thing or two on motivation.

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11-22-2007, 07:36 PM
  #41
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So who's your coach now? In my opinion Reggie Dunlop is the obvious choice there. The guy knows a thing or two on motivation.
I think Valeri Bure should be his coach.

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11-22-2007, 09:11 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Raiders g.m. VanIslander is quoted by unnamed sources to have given up any hope of winning the cup and quits before his board can fire him, but not before he fires coach Shero for delivering an average regular season for a coach expected to win nearly 80% of the games. A scrub assistant coach takes over the team.

"This is not my year," the outgoing g.m. has stated. "Perhaps I should just go back to the minors where I belong."
Oh man...I haven't even started with the case for my team strategy, defense, or goaltender yet - all of which seem to have been overlooked or grossly underestimated so far.

At least wait for the games to start before giving up.

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Old
11-23-2007, 04:10 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Lach would be an exceptional penalty killer, one of the best in the draft. You don't have to be physical to be a top-notch penalty killing centre. Ron Francis was one of the best. He didn't hit. And if you want a smaller guy (for those with the hard-on for size), look at Adam Oates. 5'11". Didn't hit. But great hockey sense and anticipation. A few guys around here have compared Oates with Lach (although I think Lach was better). Lach will have no problems being one of the best penalty killers in the draft. Is Lach as physical as Gilmour? No. But I'll argue he's smarter. That counts.

Size is only an issue for those who allow it to become an issue. I watched five-foot-six Theo Fleury become one of the best players in the league for a decade, playing a fearless brand of hockey. He survived. So will Portage's players.
I agree with you on the size issue vis-a-vis the effectiveness of checking/penalty killing forwards and I do believe that Elmer Lach was an excellent two-way player. I'm not entirely convinced that he's one of the top penalty killers of all-time, however, not because of a lack of skill on his part, but simply because there are a lot of really great ones out there. Bryan Trottier is arguably the best 2-way center of all time and I'm not sure I'd consider him one of the top penalty killing centers simply because there are so many defensive specialists out there.

Lach on both the 1st unit powerplay and 2nd unit PK may be a small issue in terms of icetime as we go deeper into the playoffs. For defensemen, I don't see double duty on special teams as much of an issue (it is inevitable, to begin with), but forwards seeing that much ice can wear down over time.

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I could care less if Lindsay was 5'7": the guy's the second-best LW of all-time, he's as strong as an ox, and he's one of the most competitive players of all-time. For my money, he's the best player in this series, and it's by a fair margin. A better player than at least a third of those drafted ahead of him. Portage's players are as tough as nails, and they're fearless.
I honestly think Dominik Hasek is the best player in the series, and by a fair margin. I like Lindsay a lot and definitely think he's the best skater, but there are very few players in history who can by themselves change the game the way Hasek can.

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The question is whether they can crack the New York system. Most of the forwards are tough and physical. The Raiders' top three on defence is the best in the draft. And they're backstopped by a goalie who, when he's on, is the most unbeatable in the draft. Size is not an issue.
I agree that Portage's size is not really an issue, though injuries may be. The Raiders have some serious hitters in that lineup and Elmer Lach (who will lead all Portage forwards in icetime) was a guy who got banged up a lot. Lach was a warrior, but the injuries did take their toll. Honestly, I wonder if he's not getting a bit overrated as a scorer here, as well.

After the war, Lach only really had three good scoring seasons - 47-48 (his Art Ross year), 51-52 (3rd in league scoring) and 45-46 (7th in league scoring - though this is still a somewhat tainted year as many returning veterans like Milt Schmidt didn't play the whole season and/or took a while to adjust to playing NHL hockey again). Other than that, Lach doesn't appear in the top-10 league scorers other than in the three war years. To make matters worse, Lach's playoff scoring after the war is quite underwhelming besides his big year in the 45-46 (which is, as I said, only sort of a postwar season). From what I know of Elmer's career, he suffered serious injuries in 46-47 and 48-49, the second of which took a couple of years to fully heal.

Seriously, Elmer Lach is obviously a great player, but he is not a man without certain question marks. As 1st line centers go, at the very least I would take Richard, Lalonde, Bentley, Beliveau, Lemieux, Trottier, Esposito, Sakic, Mikita, Messier, Taylor, Yzerman, Apps, Gretzky, Morenz, Fedorov and Malone before him. An argument can also be made, in my opinion, that Boucher, Keon, Ratelle (underrated), Cowley and Abel are all on about the same level. The presence of a number of great 2nd line centers (Schmidt, Kennedy, Stastny, et al) also throws things off a bit when looking at 1st liners.

I've got Lach somewhere around the 21st - 22nd greatest center in NHL history, no higher. I'm not trying to pick on the guy, but I also don't want to see him grossly overrated. The fact that Lach's career benefitted considerably from the war (and that he was curiously one of the few young guys who didn't serve) seems to be something few people deem it necessary to mention. Lach won his Hart trophy in 44-45, arguably the single most tainted year in NHL history (it's up there with 29-30); he was 27 years old.

Elmer Lach is a serviceable #1 center, but let's not make him out to be more than he is. Lach between Lindsay and Cook is a frightening line. Lach between Lindsay and Pitre is in the bottom half of ATD first lines, in my opinion. Portage will need to generate a decent amount of secondary scoring because the top line isn't that great and New York's #1 shutdown units (plus Hasek) are that great. Of course, the Plains do have the resources to generate secondary scoring - including 2/3rds of the Bread line, a fantastic 3rd line and solid puck-moving defensemen on the 2nd and 3rd pairings.

I think this will be a very, very close series that may well come down to coaching (both coaches are outstanding) and the play of depth players on both sides. I like both of these teams a lot, and still haven't decided which squad I think will win the 7th game in New York.


Last edited by Sturminator: 11-23-2007 at 06:38 AM. Reason: forgot about Keon
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Old
11-23-2007, 09:33 AM
  #44
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A bit more time on my hand to have some quick thoughts...

- I don't know if this point was brought so far... Anyways, PLP has a wonderful 2-way corps of forwards, but they'll need some secondary scoring for sure as the 1st line is nothing special, even with Lindsay on it : while Lach will be very good a preventing the Raiders from scoring at times, he will really need some help from the 2nd line, which features the best 2nd liner at RW in this draft (Bill Cook) and... not exactly the best C when it comes to playoffs (Crosby). This said, Cook can create offense on his own, so the need of a great center for Cook is somewhat diminished. And let's not forget Aurie and Tonelli either, and while they could use a better C in the offensive side of the game(but both could be 2nd liners, either) , it's a line that could score a few goals here and there in this round, even if it might be really ugly goals in the end.

- I'd consider Oates a better playmaker than Lach by a significant margin : this said, Lach was a much more complete player than Oates. PLP squad is better off with Lach, as there would be a huge hole in the middle with Oates/Crosby.

- Disagree with the "so-so defense" argument in PLP. When facing a team with Lindros on, Cleghorne and Stewart are two guys I'd really like to have in my lineup (and to a lesser extent, Pat Egan as well, in spite of what I said when DD drafted him). I'm a bit perplex with Ivanov being paired with Stewart, but it's not like the guy can't play, either.

- I already expressed my views on Cheevers. Chabot will have to see some rubber in this round.

- I know there are some big fans of Joe Watson here, but I just don't think he brings excellent value on a 3rd pairing. Not bad value - just what we would expect from a 6th D-Men. This said - I like the value Gusev brings on the 3rd pairing.

- Let's see how Ogrodnick will fare against the physical play of Bill Cook and Larry Aurie... and their superior skills as well.

- I love the Raiders 4th line. Extremely cohesive unit.

- Everything has been said about Hasek. The best player in this round. This said, pray for no ankle injuries, as Peeters might be the worst player of the whole draft when it comes to playoff goaltending (well, after Bob Froese). The columnists in New York don't want Hasek injured for sure.

- My hypothesis about this round is a bit weird, but there is it : If you think Lorne Chabot cannot backstop PLP to AT LEAST one win, go for Raiders. He WILL see some action in this round - something like 2 games if it goes in 7. Cheevers gives clutch goaltending, but he needs a backup to bring his A-game.

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11-23-2007, 11:34 AM
  #45
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I think New York probably has the worst group of wingers in the ATD, but he has an absolute stud goalie, three big time defenseman .. and is strong up the middle.

I think at times if New York is struggling to score that should look to move one of Gilmour or Brind'amour to LW .. as both have played wing at times in the past.

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11-23-2007, 12:28 PM
  #46
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... aw forget it... the bias in favour of old timers based on little evidence has now outweighed the bias against
You're right it has....especially for pre-NHL guys, but Lach is the "real deal". He's been underrated for a long time and it's nice to see him get some respect in this match-up.

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11-23-2007, 03:23 PM
  #47
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I agree with you on the size issue vis-a-vis the effectiveness of checking/penalty killing forwards and I do believe that Elmer Lach was an excellent two-way player. I'm not entirely convinced that he's one of the top penalty killers of all-time, however, not because of a lack of skill on his part, but simply because there are a lot of really great ones out there. Bryan Trottier is arguably the best 2-way center of all time and I'm not sure I'd consider him one of the top penalty killing centers simply because there are so many defensive specialists out there.
Not to diminish my team, but I agree with you here. I don't think Lach is one of the very best PKing forwards, but he can more than hold his own, even in an ATD. Elite centers may pose some problems, but I don't surmise Gilmour or Brind'Amour will (Tkaczuk will be out against Lindros at every opportunity, given the size mismatch).

Our advantage here is being a dangerous shorthanded threat, and being teamed with Aurie, also a stellar two-way player, the Raiders will have to be wary of odd-man rushes.

Quote:
Lach on both the 1st unit powerplay and 2nd unit PK may be a small issue in terms of icetime as we go deeper into the playoffs. For defensemen, I don't see double duty on special teams as much of an issue (it is inevitable, to begin with), but forwards seeing that much ice can wear down over time.
Having a very capable offensive 4th line comes into play here. They'll be given a regular rotation, and lighten the load of the top 6. This is a team that was built on getting offensive contributions from every line.

Also, he's on the 2nd unit, and so probably won't get as much time as the 1st, especially if Lindros is the focal point of their attack.

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I honestly think Dominik Hasek is the best player in the series, and by a fair margin. I like Lindsay a lot and definitely think he's the best skater, but there are very few players in history who can by themselves change the game the way Hasek can.
Hasek was a monster when on his game. But as Nalyd pointed out, Hasek can be taken out of his comfort zone when he's crashed and trash talked, which is absolutely Lindsay's forte.

Also, I'm not so sure why everyone is giving Hasek such a huge playoff advantage over Cheevers. During the regular season, naturally, I can see the Dominator getting the easy vote. But playoffs?

Cheevers was the consummate playoff goaltender. Won two Cups and went to two Finals (where he only lost to arguably the greatest team of all-time), with a record of 53-34 and a 2.69 GAA - and this on a very offensively-oriented team, and despite his mantra of not caring how many goals were scored against him as long as his team scored one more. A goaltender Tretiak called the best he had ever seen, if memory serves.

Hasek won one Cup, and went to one Finals (losing to a team considerably less talented than the late-70s Habs), with a record of 53-39 and a GAA of 2.02 - and this on teams that focused intently on responsible play, during the dead puck era.

To me, the playoffs are a completely different story, and Cheevers isn't outclassed by anyone there. The winning percentage speaks for itself.

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I agree that Portage's size is not really an issue, though injuries may be. The Raiders have some serious hitters in that lineup and Elmer Lach (who will lead all Portage forwards in icetime) was a guy who got banged up a lot. Lach was a warrior, but the injuries did take their toll. Honestly, I wonder if he's not getting a bit overrated as a scorer here, as well.
Lach is no more injury-prone than Lindros, and probably less so. The numbers bear that out; Lach played 5 complete seasons...Lindros never played one complete season.

The Plains have as many nasty defensemen for Lindros to be worried about as the Raiders do for Lach. The main difference between them, as I see it, is that Lindros will milk his injuries for all they're worth and then blame his team doctors, while Lach will just do whatever he can to get back and play:

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In the last game of the 1948-49 season against Detroit, an opponent's elbow broke Lach's jaw. Lach first tried to downplay the injury because he desperately wanted to be ready for the upcoming semifinal series with the Red Wings in the playoffs. The fact that he could barely open his mouth to speak was an obvious sign of the severity of his injury, but that didn't stop him from trying to get a plastic helmet/mask device approved by NHL president Clarence Campbell. His bid failed, but his reputation as one of the game's toughest competitors was intact.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo

Incidentally, the player who wrecked Lach's jaw was none other than Black Jack. So the Big E has that to look forward to.

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Seriously, Elmer Lach is obviously a great player, but he is not a man without certain question marks. As 1st line centers go, at the very least I would take Richard, Lalonde, Bentley, Beliveau, Lemieux, Trottier, Esposito, Sakic, Mikita, Messier, Taylor, Yzerman, Apps, Gretzky, Morenz, Fedorov and Malone before him. An argument can also be made, in my opinion, that Boucher, Keon, Ratelle (underrated), Cowley and Abel are all on about the same level. The presence of a number of great 2nd line centers (Schmidt, Kennedy, Stastny, et al) also throws things off a bit when looking at 1st liners.

I've got Lach somewhere around the 21st - 22nd greatest center in NHL history, no higher. I'm not trying to pick on the guy, but I also don't want to see him grossly overrated. The fact that Lach's career benefitted considerably from the war (and that he was curiously one of the few young guys who didn't serve) seems to be something few people deem it necessary to mention. Lach won his Hart trophy in 44-45, arguably the single most tainted year in NHL history (it's up there with 29-30); he was 27 years old.
I generally agree with your ranking of Lach all-time (around #20), but let's not diminish Lach's war years too much. He still put up better numbers in '44-'45 than Cowley, who was considered the best point-producer in the league, war or not, and his teammate Richard. His Art Ross after the war in '47-'48, when all the best players were playing in the NHL, should put that business to rest.

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Elmer Lach is a serviceable #1 center, but let's not make him out to be more than he is. Lach between Lindsay and Cook is a frightening line. Lach between Lindsay and Pitre is in the bottom half of ATD first lines, in my opinion. Portage will need to generate a decent amount of secondary scoring because the top line isn't that great and New York's #1 shutdown units (plus Hasek) are that great. Of course, the Plains do have the resources to generate secondary scoring - including 2/3rds of the Bread line, a fantastic 3rd line and solid puck-moving defensemen on the 2nd and 3rd pairings.
Exactly - my team is based on a balanced attack.

I don't know if you're giving Pitre his due, though. His NHA numbers are third only to Malone and Lalonde's (and he outscored them both in '15-'16, in the regular season and playoffs, when leading the Habs to their first Cup), and if you have them in the top 20 centers, it's hard to believe that you'd have such a low regard for Cannonball.

NHA All-Time

Malone: GP 124 G 179 A 26 PTS 205

Lalonde: GP 108 G 163 A 19 PTS 182

Pitre: GP 127 G 156 A 21 PTS 177

He's a big man with a big shot, and an extremely fast skater with a great touch around the net - and the dominant RW of the '10s.

He's no Bill Cook, but he's still a legit first line winger in this draft, IMO.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 11-23-2007 at 04:26 PM.
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11-23-2007, 04:12 PM
  #48
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- Disagree with the "so-so defense" argument in PLP. When facing a team with Lindros on, Cleghorne and Stewart are two guys I'd really like to have in my lineup (and to a lesser extent, Pat Egan as well, in spite of what I said when DD drafted him).
I'm not sure what's prompted the quotes about my defense either. Unfamiliarity, maybe? I think my defense can hang with any in the draft, again provided that we're giving equal weight to each era.

I'm convinced that I have the best defenseman in this series. I love Stevens, but the fact is that Cleghorn was widely considered the best defenseman in the world at the time, and put it all together at both ends of the rink during his prime as few others ever have, something Stevens never did. Even in his offensive prime, SS wasn't as prolific as Cleghorn. What's more, I essentially have a Stevens on my second pairing in Stewart.

And Lapointe? Great defenseman all-around. But was he better than Eddie Gerard?

The same Eddie Gerard who is the all-time NHA assists leader?

The same Eddie Gerard who as a defenseman captained the Senators dynasty to three Cups, a feat only matched by Potvin and Stevens?

The same Eddie Gerard whose previous partnership with Cleghorn was called an "an impenetrable defensive wall in (their) own zone"?

The same Eddie Gerard who was deemed worthy of the HHOF's very first induction class?

The same Eddie Gerard who, when Harry Cameron went down to injury in '21-'22 and the St.Pats were allowed to choose any defenseman in the league to replace him, was chosen over the likes of Buck Boucher and Sprague Cleghorn? And who played so well during that reserve duty that Lester Patrick (the opposing coach) refused to allow him to continue the next game?

I'd give Gerard the edge over Lapointe. An unpopular opinion, but I doubt Lapointe was ever as highly regarded in his day as Gerard was in his.

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I'm a bit perplex with Ivanov being paired with Stewart, but it's not like the guy can't play, either.
Check out my 2nd line. Given Foster Hewitt's likening of the Bread Line's puck control to the '70s Soviets, I thought I might use them in conjunction with Stewart and Ivanov fairly regularly as a 5 man unit. Lots of room for creativity. Ivanov was teamed with the physical defensive stalwart Ragulin to form what has been referred to as one of the best Russian defense pairings ever. Since Ragulin's strong play allowed Ivanov more freedom in the o-zone, I figured Stewart's defensive acumen and mobility would allow him to do the same.

My first line will be more of a conventional North-South configuration. Lindsay the physical player creating havoc on the boards while making his standard offensive contributions, Lach the speedy two-way puck-distributor, and Pitre the flashy goal-scorer. Seemed to work for the Punch Line; I mean, Pitre's no Richard, but Blake's no Lindsay either.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 11-23-2007 at 04:58 PM.
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11-23-2007, 04:53 PM
  #49
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You're right it has....especially for pre-NHL guys, but Lach is the "real deal". He's been underrated for a long time and it's nice to see him get some respect in this match-up.
What? Sturminator and I have been told guys like Tommy Phillips and Bruce Stuart can't score at a 3rd/4th line level in the ATD despite being among the best in the world during their day.

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11-23-2007, 04:55 PM
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What? Sturminator and I have been told guys like Tommy Phillips and Bruce Stuart can't score at a 3rd/4th line level in the ATD despite being among the best in the world during their day.
I never said Tom Phillipps wouldn't score : I only said he would brings too much PIM's to be used effectively on a checking line (if you were referring to my comments).

I realize now that my last entry is as far as possible from NY-PLP matchup. This thread has so much replies, it should be renamed "ATD - Gossip Circle"

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