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ATD#8 Bob Cole Round 1: #4 Montreal vs. #5 Calgary

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Old
11-19-2007, 11:13 AM
  #1
VanIslander
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ATD#8 Bob Cole Round 1: #4 Montreal vs. #5 Calgary

The Bob Cole division:

First Round Match-Up



Montreal Wanderers

Coach: Roger Neilson
Captain: Butch Bouchard
Alternates: Joe Sakic, Dave Poulin

Reg Noble - Joe Sakic - Pavel Bure
Rick Martin - Gilbert Perreault - Rene Robert
Al Secord - Denis Savard - Steve Larmer
Yvon Lambert - Dave Poulin - Tommy Dunderdale
Wayne Merrick Tony Amonte

J.C. Tremblay - Butch Bouchard
Leo Reise Jr. - Flash Hollett
Barry Beck - Red Dutton
Josef Malecek

Terry Sawchuk
Pelle Lindbergh



vs.



Calgary RCAF Mustangs

Coach: Terry Crisp
Captain: Mark Messier
Alternates: Joe Nieuwendyk, Trevor Linden

Alex Delvecchio - Mark Messier - Alexander Maltsev
Johnny Bucyk - Joe Nieuwendyk - Theoren Fleury
Simon Gagne - Bobby Holik - Trevor Linden
Shane Corson - Erich Kuhnhackl - Stan Smyl
Bob Probert

Derian Hatcher - Dit Clapper
Ulf Samuelsson - Reijo Ruotsalainen
Carol Vadnais - James Patrick
Vladimir Lutchenko

Vladislav Tretiak
J.S. Giguere
Seth Martin




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Old
11-19-2007, 11:14 AM
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VanIslander
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Montreal Wanderers

PP1: R.Martin - Sakic - Bure - Tremblay - Hollett
PP2: Secord - Savard - Larmer - Perreault- Bouchard

PK1: Poulin - Larmer - Tremblay - Bouchard
PK2: Sakic - Noble - Reise Jr. - Dutton

vs.

Calgary RCAF Mustangs

PP1: Bucyk - Messier - Maltsev - Clapper - Vadnais
PP2: Delvecchio - Nieuwendyk - Fleury - Hatcher - Ruotsalainen

PK1: Holik - Corson - Hatcher - Clapper
PK2: Linden - Smyl - Samuelsson - Patrick


Last edited by VanIslander: 11-19-2007 at 05:54 PM.
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Old
11-19-2007, 12:11 PM
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Analysis:
Forwards - Advantage Mustangs
Especially in a playoff type situation where there are a significant number of players on the Wanderers who were unable over the course of their careers to sip from Lord Stanley's mug and more importantly don't have a reputation for being a clutch player in the post-season.

Furthermore the advantage of chemistry that the Wanderers had during the regular season in the French Connection, will be minimized now that players will have had a better time to adapt to each others games.

Sakic is a good quiet leader but I don't see a player in the Wanderers lineup that is a standup and take charge type of player and while that might not be needed there are a few malcontents in high places in the Wanderers lineup who could best be served by a stronger leader (Bure being the prime example).

Defense - Advantage Wanderers
Not a huge advantage though in my opinion. I haven't seen any of the Wanderers defense which makes for an interesting discussion as well that lack of first hand knowledge is troublesome.

Goal - Advantage Wanderers

Sawchuk vs. all but a couple is an easy call. Tretiak unfortunately for us in North America never got the opportunity to show what he was capable of in a NHL arena. That being said on this board it seems as though he has had a rather abrupt fall from grace in the past year for one reason or another - while another European goaltender from the same era has seen his stock skyrocket.

Intangables - Advantage Calgary
Calgary is filled to the brim with leaders who have won and who know how to win, really I don't think many will say the same about the Wanderers who apart from a few scattered cups throughout the lineup haven't shown that they are elite playoff performers.

Physical Play - Significant Advantage Calgary
Just a big skilled team vs. a little skilled team. There isn't much to say except that from top to bottom there is toughness and durability in the Calgary lineup.

In my biased opinion Calgary in 6 games.

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11-19-2007, 08:04 PM
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I really liked Montreal's team for the regular season. I had them higher than they finished. But I don't like them as much for the playoffs.

Chemistry isn't as much of a factor in the playoffs. Guys have been able to play together throughout the season. They've formed chemistry of their own. I applaud Lapi for taking the strategy he took, at the end of the day, the most important thing is to build a team you can be proud of. But it's not necessarily one that will yield a championship.

I commented extensively on Lapi's team earlier. I agree with the Inmate (BTW, FI2, have a happy birthday) that his team is at a weakness on defence and blue-line. Bouchard and Tremblay are outstanding No. 2 defencemen. The Wanderers don't have a true No. 1, but I think Bouchard and Tremblay works as a top pairing. Calgary has the best defenceman in the series in Dit Clapper, but as a whole, I like Montreal's defence.

Calgary's forward lines are well-built. The top two lines have a good blend of skill, toughness and all-round play. I'm not sure if Nieuwendyk is well-cast as a second line centre, but I think the Bucyk-Nieuwendyk-Fleury line works. Maybe it's me, but I'd love to see Corson on a line with Holik and Linden. Tough, rugged, aggressive forward who will be a nightmare for opponents with their toughness and forecheck. Save Gagne for the fourth line. Only concern is can Messier and Linden co-exist?

Inmate, is Hatcher a defensive conscience for Clapper, or is he legitimately your No. 2? Because Clapper doesn't need a defensive conscience. He can do it all. You could easily move Reijo or Vadenais to the top pairing (Vadenais wasn't effective defensively). Hatcher-Samuelsson would be very dangerous defensively.

Goaltending is a definite edge for Montreal. Sawchuk's one of the top three ever. Tretiak might be the biggest wildcard in the draft. Some love him. They think he's the best ever. Others don't like him. How will he do in a seven-game series? I'm not sure if JS Giguere is the answer if Tretiak struggles. Therefore, Tretiak is my difference maker in this series. If he struggles, Calgary is done.

I don't know if either team has an edge in coaching. Crisp was solid, but he's a bottom tier coach in this draft, a 20-28 coach. I think Neilson can be very effective. I don't know if this is the team that's best for him. In fact, Captain Video struggled in Buffalo with Perreault. I think Neilson is the better coach. Don't know if it's the ideal situation for him. The Messier/Neilson matchup should be fun to watch.

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11-20-2007, 12:09 AM
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I don't expect the lines as set forth to be written in stone, I mean of course the players are going to change and it will essentially be a matter of finding out which combinations get hot at the right time and who plays best with whom.

As I said before my teams weakness on defense is that there is no true #2 defenseman, there is Clapper and then there are a number of 3-4 defenseman but that #2 defenseman doesn't really exist. Having Hatcher out there with the Clap gives me the ability to have a bit more of an offensive leash which should prove to advantageous.

I like Joe as a second line center - he doesn't have the offensive abilities of a first line center and with a familiar face in Fleury to his right there shouldn't be any concern about production.

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Old
11-20-2007, 02:24 AM
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I don't have time to comment on the series as a whole right now, but I'll say that I think those that pan Tretiak for a couple of bad games in 1972 are really missing the point. Does the league realize that Vladislav Tretiak was just a few months past his 20th birthday when those teams hooked up for the Summit Series in 1972? Tretiak was the youngest player on either team and easily the youngest regular player in the series. This is an age at which most NHL draftees are still wetting their pampers in the minors even today - nevermind in 1972 - and Tretiak is supposed to take a big hit in career value because he got eaten up a few times by the likes of Phil Esposito and Co.?

Yeah, I saw the 72 Summit Series (and I've watched it again as an adult) and yeah, Tretiak was inconsistent. But I also saw the 74 Summit Series, the 76 and 81 Canada Cups and 79 Challenge Cup and he wasn't in the least bit shaky in those competitions, not to mention his performances at the IIHF world championships. Tretiak was not an inconsistent player, nor was he a big-game choker - not at all. By all accounts, in the prime of his career, he was a mentally strong goalie who raised his level of play after he was scored on.

Tretiak was deserving of his draft position in this iteration. I wouldn't take him where he went in ATD#7 (early 2nd), but he belongs in the range in which he was selected, in my opinion. I'd give Sawchuk the advantage over Tretiak, but it's not nearly as big as the Tretiak-haters would make it out to be.

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11-20-2007, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I don't have time to comment on the series as a whole right now, but I'll say that I think those that pan Tretiak for a couple of bad games in 1972 are really missing the point. Does the league realize that Vladislav Tretiak was just a few months past his 20th birthday when those teams hooked up for the Summit Series in 1972? Tretiak was the youngest player on either team and easily the youngest regular player in the series. This is an age at which most NHL draftees are still wetting their pampers in the minors even today - nevermind in 1972 - and Tretiak is supposed to take a big hit in career value because he got eaten up a few times by the likes of Phil Esposito and Co.?

Yeah, I saw the 72 Summit Series (and I've watched it again as an adult) and yeah, Tretiak was inconsistent. But I also saw the 74 Summit Series, the 76 and 81 Canada Cups and 79 Challenge Cup and he wasn't in the least bit shaky in those competitions, not to mention his performances at the IIHF world championships. Tretiak was not an inconsistent player, nor was he a big-game choker - not at all. By all accounts, in the prime of his career, he was a mentally strong goalie who raised his level of play after he was scored on.

Tretiak was deserving of his draft position in this iteration. I wouldn't take him where he went in ATD#7 (early 2nd), but he belongs in the range in which he was selected, in my opinion. I'd give Sawchuk the advantage over Tretiak, but it's not nearly as big as the Tretiak-haters would make it out to be.
Games 6, 7 and 8 in Moscow .. '72.

Miracle on Ice Game.

also Myshkin played the deciding game of the Challenge Cup.

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11-20-2007, 09:44 PM
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Games 6, 7 and 8 in Moscow .. '72.

Miracle on Ice Game.

also Myshkin played the deciding game of the Challenge Cup.
I thought Tretiak only played one period of of the Mirace on Ice...

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11-20-2007, 09:55 PM
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I thought Tretiak only played one period of of the Mirace on Ice...
Yes, and was yanked because he gave up two absolutely brutal goals.

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11-20-2007, 10:52 PM
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Yes, and was yanked because he gave up two absolutely brutal goals.
Fair enough. I knew there was one brutal goal, that's it. Never saw the game.

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11-20-2007, 11:53 PM
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Yes, and was yanked because he gave up two absolutely brutal goals.
Actually, I'd say that only one of those goals was brutal. Yanking Tretiak in 1980 was probably the single worst decision of Tikhonov's career, and he admits as much. Basically every Soviet player who has commented on the game believes they'd have won had Tretiak stayed in, as he was the kind of guy who raised his level of play after he was scored on. Vasiliev was so angry about the decision he tried to choke Tikhonov out on the flight home.

Problem is that Tikhonov was trying to get cute with the goalies after his success with the surprise of starting Myshkin in the last game of the 1979 Challenge Cup. The Soviet team played arguably their best overall game of the decade in front of Myshkin (and demolished the NHLers), and Tikhonov thought he could go back to the well. It was a stupid idea that didn't work.

Every goalie will occasionally give up some bad goals, but good coaches leave the stars in because they know they'll rebound. Tikhonov's coaching mistakes are not Tretiak's fault.

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11-21-2007, 12:00 AM
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Actually, I'd say that only one of those goals was brutal. Yanking Tretiak in 1980 was probably the single worst decision of Tikhonov's career, and he admits as much. Basically every Soviet player who has commented on the game believes they'd have won had Tretiak stayed in, as he was the kind of guy who raised his level of play after he was scored on. Vasiliev was so angry about the decision he tried to choke Tikhonov out on the flight home.
The first goal was an unscreened slap shot from 45 feet coming down the wing, a save the goalie absolutely has to make. The 2nd, Tretiak got very sloppy and careless giving up a juicy rebound on a dump in from center ice, along Mark Johnson wo tie the game with under a second remaining in the period. Also very weak.


The Soviets wouldn't have won the game with Tretiak in net. They only scored one more goal the rest of the way. And Myshin had no chance on the 3rd goal ... while the 4th may have been stopable, it was a wrist shot through a screen, certainly better than either of the two Tretiak gave up.

Also Tik's strategy of yanking Tretiak, certainly worked in the 2nd period as the Soviets absolutely dominated the 2nd period, and only the brilliance of Craig allowed the US team to be trailing by a single goal heading into the 3rd period.

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11-23-2007, 03:40 PM
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Well, I stayed with my strategy of assembling one or two famous lines giving the opportunity to the voters to know exactly what they will get with those lines. I am very happy with the 4 solid lines I have put together as well as a unspectacular defense corp but effective. Combine that with a top 5 goalie of all time.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is to build a team you like and can be proud of.

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11-27-2007, 03:46 AM
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Game 1: The Montreal crowd is hot, and the Wanderers respond. Tretiak responds in kind. Shutting the door at every chance. Late in the first, Bure intercepts a pass and gets a breakaway, dekes, but Tretiak stays, Bure sidesteps at the last second, but Tretiak throws his leg out to rob the Russian rocket, killing the Wanderers momentum and the crowd. With seconds to go in the 1st, Fluery crams the puck past Sawchuk despite Beck Having him pinned in a hunchback position. Calgary comes out flying in the 2nd with goals by Linden and Messier. Martin gets a goal late in the 2nd to try and get momentum back. Hollett gets an early 3rd goal, but Maltsev scores off a beauty pass from Messier to kill momentum. Calgary locks down to prevent a comeback.
Calgary wins game 1 4-2 for a 1-0 series lead.

Game 2: Montreal comes out possessed to get back in the series. Sakic scores on the first shift. It's back and forth throughout the first with no real advantage. Midway through the second, Larmer rips a wrist shot passed Tretiak. Afterwards, Montreal settles down and lets Sawchuk find his comfort zone, and Calgary has no answer.
Montreal wins game 2 2-0 to tie the series.

Game 3: Calgary comes out flying at home with Clapper launching his team into action any chance he gets. But a Tremblay point shot is the first goal. Messier doesn't let Montreal get momentum, setting up Delvecchio for a goal. Goaltending duel follows all the way through to overtime. Midway through the first overtime, Nieuwendyk gets the puck in open ice and scores the game winner.
Calgary wins game 3 2-1 in OT for a 2-1 series lead.

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11-28-2007, 02:32 AM
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Game 4: Calgary continues the moment, firing on all cylinders Messier gets an early goal. Montreal adapts to the wide open pace and Bure beats Tretiak. Delvecchio and Perrault also score. Early in the 3rd, the play in Montreal's zone, Bucyk battling in the corner with Bouchard, Bucyk throws it out front, one-timer by Fluery, STOPPED BY SAWCHUK! Another whack, another, and the follow through clips Sawchuk in the mask, knocking him away. Fluery's down on one knee using his free leg to push Sawchuk away and Bucyk jams home the loose puck. Sawchuk is livid, he goes to throw a punch but Bouchard holds his arm back, Dunderdale gets between Fluery and Sawchuk. If I could read Sawchuk's lips, I'm sure I would be offended. No penalties are assessed and the goal stands. Before the puck is dropped, Sawchuk skates out of the crease, takes off his glove and wags his finger at the Calgary bench. The dirty goal fires Montreal up and they press hard. Sakic and Noble get goals, Sakic netting the game winner.
Montreal wins game 4 4-3 to tie the series at 2-2.

Game 5: Sawchuk is the first player on the ice and he just stands there, glaring at the Calgary bench. Focussed. A man possessed. The game starts, but it seems irrelevant, all that matter is Terry Sawchuk. Calgary dominates the play, but Sawchuk dominates them. There is no rest, no reprieve. Sawchuk is the game. Midway through the 2nd, Rick Martin scores. That is all that is required, Savard adds an empty netter.
Montreal wins game 5 2-0 to take a 3-2 series lead.

Game 6: Sawchuk continues his steely-eyed domination until late in the 1st. Messier and Delvecchio on a two on one against Reise. Messier fakes the pass and fires a trademark wrist shot from the faceoff circle to the top corner. Goalies know he's going to take that shot, but knowing is not enough. Calgary tries to carry momentum into the 2nd, but early in the period, Joe Sakic responds with his own wicked wrist shot. The two goalies then lock down and it is a full fledged goalie battle. No quarter given, none asked. In the second overtime, the battle is decided, Hollett leads the rush, loses the puck to Linden, but Reise gets it back, pass to Noble, to Sakic, dekes past Hatcher, wrist shot...AND A GOAL!
Montreal wins game 6 2-1 in double OT to win the series 4-2.

Montreal wins in 6 games.

Three stars:
3rd-Mark Messier
2nd-Joe Sakic
1st-Terry Sawchuk

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