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The Brodeur/Roy/Hasek debate

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Old
11-26-2007, 09:13 PM
  #51
ALine9900
 
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Does anyone know how many points each goalie has?

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11-26-2007, 09:16 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Yes, if you consider a 40 year old defenseman any help to Roy, then you can tell me he was helped in any way playing behind Bourque. Blake obviously was a great help, but for the majority of Roy's career, he played with guys like Eric Desjardins and Adam Foote as #1 defensemen. No slouches, but no comparison to playing almost your entire career behind Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer.

I forgot about Chelios and Robinson in 1986. But the fact of the matter is, Roy had 3 Conn Smythe Trophies.

During 1986, Roy was a rookie and obviously Robinson's and Chelios' presence helped a lot. But during 1993, he carried the Canadiens. In 1996, he was the final piece for the Avalanche. In 2001, he played behind an almost-retired Ray Bourque and Rob Blake, a borderline Hall-of-Famer who probably will get in.

His stats aren't exaggerated because while Blake was a force offensively, he never was a Stevens, Niedermayer, or anything special in the defensive zone.
bourque was norris runner-up when he was 39, so he was a small help to roy. almost-retired bourque was still better than niedermayer. desjardins and foote could certainly be argued as better than niedermayer until niedermayer last few seasons.

chelios also won the norris with montreal in 89.

niedermayer isn't that strong defensively, and was even less so for most of his career on NJ. blake was better for most of their careers.

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11-26-2007, 09:18 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Nitpick - you make it sound like, if the officials had called the play correctly, they would have stopped the game and immediately awarded the Stanley Cup to Buffalo.

Buffalo still had to score in that overtime, and win Game Seven in Dallas. That's not as easy as you make it sound.
you are right of course.

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Old
11-26-2007, 09:19 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
You can make a legitimate case for any of the three being the best or worst goalie. But each goalie's case is dependent on different arguments.

Hasek- the "individual success" case. In terms of personal awards (Harts, Vezina, all-star appearances), Hasek is unquestionably the best goalie of these three and is probably the greatest goalie of all-time. Hasek is also the greatest goalie in NHL history in terms of save percentage (both for peak and careers values, adjusted for era or not). If you think save percentage is a good indicator of a goalie's success, you probably think Hasek is the best of the bunch.

Roy - the "playoff success" case. Roy is probably the best playoff goalie since Jacques Plante (and is arguably the greatest playoff goalie of all-time). He holds the all-time record for Conn Smythes, and has won more Stanley Cup rings than any goalie in the past fifty years (though he's tied with a few ie Bower, Smith, Fuhr). He had a stranglehold on career PO wins and his success is so impressive because he won on strong and weak teams spanning many years, in high- and low-scoring eras. On top of this, I think Roy's save percentage (adjusted for era) is something like 3rd best all-time, so the (era-adjusted) gap between him and Hasek, while significant, is smaller than most would expect.

Brodeur - the "consistent team success" case. I wasn't quite sure how to word this, but Brodeur's success is reflected in team stats (Stanley Cups, GAA, shutouts, wins), and the latter two are based heavily on longevity and consistency. Brodeur was never as good, relative to his peers, as Hasek and Roy were, but he was the steadiest, most consistent, and probably added the most value to his franchise on a long-term value. His individual awards are less impressive than the other two (he is catching up to Roy, though against weaker competition) but he has a good chance of retiring first in wins and shutouts and of course he was an excellent playoff goalie.

The cases are a bit exaggerated here to illustrate a point. Of course I'm not saying that Hasek had no team success or that Roy had no individual success.

Again, you can make a legitimate argument for any of these three. I think all three of them rank in the top ten goalies of all time. The important question is: which of the three cases, as a general rule, do you think is the most important?

====

I just realized I never actually answered the question. I'd take Hasek (assuming each goalie was available in their prime) for a single season. I'd take Roy for a single playoff game. I'd take Brodeur if I was starting a team with a 20-year outlook.

I think this is the most accurate post, especially your conclusions in the end.

Another thing to keep in mind with Brodeur and the "HOF defensemen" excuse is that while Stevens clearly helped him, Niedermayer was hardly a HOF defenseman in Jersey until 03 or 04. He never really got any recognition until that norris in 03-04 I believe and really sealed his HOF status with his cup in Anaheim or maybe the 03 cup in Jersey. What Im saying is Brodeur maybe got 2 years out of the HOF Scott Niedermayer, not his whole career.

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11-26-2007, 09:28 PM
  #55
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It's a debate that has many pro's and cons and I don't think it will ever be solved or most people will lean to one goaltender. Hasek, Brodeur, and Roy are really close and to find out who really was better is just way to hard in my opinion.

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11-26-2007, 09:30 PM
  #56
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It's similar to the Hall, Sawchuk and Plante debate. To close to call and a solid argument can be made for any of the three. Really depends on whether you like apples, peaches or oranges.

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11-26-2007, 09:35 PM
  #57
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I think it's interesting that each achieved such great success with their own distinct styles. Hasek flopped around, did whatever he could to make a save. Roy obviously revolutionized goaltending by making the butterfly the standard style for the position. And Brodeur could throw anything at you, he's really just a master at his craft. So technically sound, and as a goalie I can appreciate the difficulty in making the saves he does. Where most goalies just go down in a butterfly to increase the percentages of a save (nothing worng with it - i do it too) Brodeur will stand up, butterfly, half butterfly, do a combination, boot the puck, pokecheck, 2 pad stack. he really has mastered his form, rebound control, and puckhandling to an amazing degree.

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11-26-2007, 09:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmanian Devil View Post
I think it's interesting that each achieved such great success with their own distinct styles. Hasek flopped around, did whatever he could to make a save. Roy obviously revolutionized goaltending by making the butterfly the standard style for the position. And Brodeur could throw anything at you, he's really just a master at his craft. So technically sound, and as a goalie I can appreciate the difficulty in making the saves he does. Where most goalies just go down in a butterfly to increase the percentages of a save (nothing worng with it - i do it too) Brodeur will stand up, butterfly, half butterfly, do a combination, boot the puck, pokecheck, 2 pad stack. he really has mastered his form, rebound control, and puckhandling to an amazing degree.
Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread

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Old
11-26-2007, 10:07 PM
  #59
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Hasek and Roy are really close for me. 3 Conn Smythes vs 2 Hart Trophies. I can't really decide but I'll say Roy by a hair.

Brodeur I think is a distant third. The thing is Brodeur never carried his team in the playoffs, all three cup wins, no one ever said that Brodeur carried the team. Roy was always heralded as the guy carrying his team, Hasek also, but until last year and the year before, Brodeur was never really the guy everyone followed to victory.

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11-26-2007, 10:13 PM
  #60
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Here is something I've been curious about.

Hasek had a 1.95GAA during the 1993-1994 season, the first goalie in 20 seasons to finish with a GAA below 2.00. While scoring in 1993-1994 was down from the previous season, it was still relatively high compared to later seasons, when other goalies were regularly finishing with GAA below 2.00.

If there is some formula to figure out the average number of goals scored in an NHL game during that season (1993-1994) compared to later seasons and compare Hasek's 1.95 GAA to later GAA's of that decade?

I realize that would be a tall order and I probably could word it better but it would be a neat stat I think. For instance if there was 7.5 goals ( I am taking a guess???) scored during the average game in '93-'94, how would that look to 1998 when 5.5 goals (another guess) were scored in the average game.

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Old
11-26-2007, 10:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteo View Post
Does anyone know how many points each goalie has?
Brodeur has 29 (1g, 28a) career pts Reg season, 7 (1g, 6a) PO.

Hasek has 19 pts Reg, 3 pts PO.

Roy has 45 pts Reg, 11 pts PO.

This doesn't properly illustrate Brodeur's puckhandling skills, which have always led to zone clears but not neccessarily pts.

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Old
11-26-2007, 10:23 PM
  #62
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hey Hasek was no choker in the playoffs but Brodeur has won three Cups to Hasek's one. In a Game #7 I'll still take Brodeur over Hasek.
Roy - 4 cups
Brodeur - 3 cups
Hasek - 1 cup

Enough said...does anything else in hockey matter?

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11-26-2007, 10:28 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Roy - 4 cups
Brodeur - 3 cups
Hasek - 1 cup

Enough said...does anything else in hockey matter?
Kevin Lowe - 6 Cups
Scott Stevens - 3 Cups

I see nothing wrong with this line of thinking.

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Old
11-26-2007, 10:29 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
bourque was norris runner-up when he was 39, so he was a small help to roy. almost-retired bourque was still better than niedermayer. desjardins and foote could certainly be argued as better than niedermayer until niedermayer last few seasons.
Actually Bourque was a 1st team allstar when he won the Cup in 2001 (aged 41). Dude was amazing...

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11-26-2007, 11:23 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caged Wisdom View Post
Brodeur- 3 cups
Hasek- 1 cup
Roy - 4 Cups.

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11-26-2007, 11:30 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Kevin Lowe - 6 Cups
Scott Stevens - 3 Cups

I see nothing wrong with this line of thinking.
Agreed. Claude Lemieux = 2x Mario Lemieux

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11-26-2007, 11:38 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
It's similar to the Hall, Sawchuk and Plante debate. To close to call and a solid argument can be made for any of the three. Really depends on whether you like apples, peaches or oranges.
hmmm a goalies job is to stop the puck i.e. get a shutout if possible.if Sawchuck had 103 Career SO, a record that stills stands today.then why is there an arguement.

p.s. 447 wins,4 Stanley Cups, Calder ,1 Lester Patrick, #9 Greatest players of all time (Hockey News).

hockey news had #13 Plante ,#16 Hall,#35 Roy,#95 Dominic Hasek.

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11-27-2007, 12:05 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
hmmm a goalies job is to stop the puck i.e. get a shutout if possible.if Sawchuck had 103 Career SO, a record that stills stands today.then why is there an arguement.
If you tried to over-simplify this any more than you did, you would fail.

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11-27-2007, 12:23 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i've always thought roy was better than brodeur just from watching them. 3 smythes to 0 is certainly a point in roy's favor, considering their teams were of roughly equal strength.


kind of ironic:
the next season, in the de facto finals, roy lost game 6 because of his cockiness, and then maybe had the worst game 7 in history.
the next season after that, he lost games 6 and 7 in OT to minnesota.
the 2 seasons prior to 01, roy lost game 7 to dallas.
roy actually has a losing record in game 7's.
Brodeur had a losing OT record up until a season or two ago.
I've never held that or Roy's losing record against them since considering the calibre of both players, I'd say the only reason they got to OT is the first place is that Brodeur kept them in a game, or the only reason his team got to a 7th game is that Roy stole a few from games 1-6. For sure '99 was a disaster for the Avs and Roy was the only reason they got to game 7.

I agree though that after game 6 of 2002 Roy was never the same goalie. The same qualities that made him the best goaltender of his generation also was his downfall. But win or lose thats how he played the game. His arrogance is what brought him to Denver in the first place.

Quote:
i think roy '93, while it is 1 of the greatest goaltending performances, is somewhat overrated. i have heard so many people say roy carried a bad team to the cup.
montreal was a 48 win, 102 point team who played only 1 team who had a better record, quebec (and quebec had less wins). same thing happened in 86.
48 wins and 102 points is great, but in terms of teams that have won the cup when you look at that roster it is definately one of the weakest Stanley cup winners in recent memory.

Quote:
i guess you mean other than chelios, robinson and bourque? blake has an outside chance also.
But the Bourque and Robinson that played in front of Roy definately werent at their peaks. Even Chelios hadnt fully reached his dominant peak either.

That Hasek accomplished what he did with such mediocre defenseman in front of him is a great feat, but in terms of Stanley cup winning teams Roy's two in Montreal were definately on the weaker side.

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Old
11-27-2007, 12:39 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Kevin Lowe - 6 Cups
Scott Stevens - 3 Cups

I see nothing wrong with this line of thinking.
Well then so be it...Lowe has won more then Stevens. Goaltending you are valued based on winning or losing...the rest of the players is obviously a team effort. If you have a goaltender that wins games 6 - 5 and a goaltender that loses games 3 - 2...I'd rather the goaltender that gets it done. There is an art to winning.

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11-27-2007, 12:42 AM
  #71
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Thinking about it...I don't care who is better....all I care about is if my team wins. Would of could of... Brodeur has 3 cups and Hasek has 1...the past is past so deal with it. Was Hasek a better goaltender...I really don't care...Brodeur won 3 cups for my team.

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11-27-2007, 12:43 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Well then so be it...Lowe has won more then Stevens. Goaltending you are valued based on winning or losing...the rest of the players is obviously a team effort. If you have a goaltender that wins games 6 - 5 and a goaltender that loses games 3 - 2...I'd rather the goaltender that gets it done. There is an art to winning.
Still dependant on the team around you though. Otherwise I propose we throw out Hasek as he's obviously inferior and begin debating Chris Osgood's place among the elite goaltenders of this generation.

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11-27-2007, 12:46 AM
  #73
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
Still dependant on the team around you though. Otherwise I propose we throw out Hasek as he's obviously inferior and begin debating Chris Osgood's place among the elite goaltenders of this generation.
The way I look at things is the same way in golf...its not how, its how many. It doesn't matter how you get the job done...just get it done. If Osgood wins more then Hasek no matter who has the better stats...go with Osgood.

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11-27-2007, 12:51 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
The way I look at things is the same way in golf...its not how, its how many. It doesn't matter how you get the job done...just get it done. If Osgood wins more then Hasek no matter who has the better stats...go with Osgood.


You just lost all credibility


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11-27-2007, 12:55 AM
  #75
Jason MacIsaac
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Originally Posted by albertGQ View Post


You just lost all credibility

Do you have any credibility in the first place?

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