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The Brodeur/Roy/Hasek debate

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Old
11-27-2007, 01:46 PM
  #101
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Brodeur is definitely "THE BEST"

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11-27-2007, 02:31 PM
  #102
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Ok, so to recap:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Roy - 4 cups
Brodeur - 3 cups
Hasek - 1 cup

Enough said...does anything else in hockey matter?
1. The goalie with the most championships is the better goalie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
the rest of the team means everything and thats my point.
2. The goalies TEAM is the most important ingredient to a championship.


So a goalie is credited with the cup wins, but not responsible for them. Maybe it's just me, but points 1 and 2 here don't seem to go together...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Thinking about it...I don't care who is better....all I care about is if my team wins. Would of could of... Brodeur has 3 cups and Hasek has 1...the past is past so deal with it. Was Hasek a better goaltender...I really don't care...Brodeur won 3 cups for my team.
ohhhh...now I get it. You've chosen to ignore the actual point of this thread, and just point out that your team won some Cups, and that Brodeur was the only one of these goalies who played for your team during this specific period.

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11-27-2007, 02:41 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Ok, so to recap:



1. The goalie with the most championships is the better goalie.




2. The goalies TEAM is the most important ingredient to a championship.


So a goalie is credited with the cup wins, but not responsible for them. Maybe it's just me, but points 1 and 2 here don't seem to go together...




ohhhh...now I get it. You've chosen to ignore the actual point of this thread, and just point out that your team won some Cups, and that Brodeur was the only one of these goalies who played for your team during this specific period.
Thats because you don't want them to link together so whatever is going on in your head...its gonna be the way you want to see it.

My whole point in this thread is that a goaltenders number one objective is to win cups. Obviously in some of your minds where winning doesn't come natural in your organization you have to resort to an alternate reasoning for playing the game. So you compare prospects, your players, trades your team have made in the past. Everything but the ultimate goal of winning the cup.

Brodeur won 3 Stanley cups, he obtained his goal 3 times in his career and may yet win another. Hasek won 1 cup, maybe because his teams were not that good or maybe because he just couldn't find a way to win. I don't really care but just in football with the quarterback, I think Stanley Cups is the most telling stat for a goaltender since they are the backbone of the team.

Fuhr may not be the best goaltender in the world but he sure as hell got it done when it counted and I respect everything he done for the Oilers teams.

I ignore the point of the thread because it is stupid. You can't compare the situations and you can't play the swap game. Who is better, Brodeur or Hasek? Better at what aspect? Overall they are both great goaltenders. My final point is that Hasek did well for Buffalo in the regular season but never got it done in the playoffs for the organization. He did however prove he could win a cup in Detroit. Why don't we leave it at that.

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11-27-2007, 02:50 PM
  #104
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1. Hasek
2. Roy





3. Brodeur

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Hasek never carried his team to the Stanley Cup.
Looks like you didn't watch the 2002 playoffs.

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11-27-2007, 03:12 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Thats because you don't want them to link together so whatever is going on in your head...its gonna be the way you want to see it.

My whole point in this thread is that a goaltenders number one objective is to win cups.

.

I am sorry this is the faultiest point out of all of your faulty points and I notice you aren't convincing anyone but yourself.

What is a forwards number one objective, to achieve world peace?!? A defensemen's goal is to end hunger in Africa?!?

A goaltender's main objective is to stop the puck, plain and simple. When he can score goals, play defense and stop the puck at the same time, then I would say his main objective is to win Cups.

A team's objective is to win the Cup, it is soley not up to an individual player.

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11-27-2007, 03:15 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Keep on spouting...you may even have a point some day. I didn't say you are only as good as the amount of cups you have. But you do accomplish something that nobody can take away...being a winner. Weither you are a 4th liner or a 1st liner. When it comes down to it...isn't that the goal? Of course not...we live on HF when everything has to be compared and everyone is compared.
This thread is who is the best goaltender, if you want to argue who is the best winner then start your own useless thread.

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11-27-2007, 03:26 PM
  #107
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Why isn't the potential to win a cup considered?
Brodeur and Roy each played on great teams. You have to think their teams gave them the POTENTIAL to win cups in a greater capacity than say, Nikolai Khabibulin or even more, Olaf Kolzig....many other goalies really.

It is crazy to fault Kolzig or Khabibulin for not winning the cup when they are on such inferior teams. I'd say Kolzig was NEVER on a team that should have won the Cup...and the team that he backstopped in '98 was playing the BEST it could that season...and WAY overmatched by Detroit. Darn, Kolzig, YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE!

Meanwhile, Brodeur got knocked out of the playoffs multiple times while being on a GREAT TEAM. And certainly it can be said that his offense didn't produce during some of those years, but could it possibly have been because it was busy protecting him!? Playing the system that allowed him to flourish!? Nah we can't say that.

Roy also played on a great team. I think he did more in the playoffs than Brodeur as far meeting expectations and living up to potential.

It wouldn't be hard to rank the goalies according to potential every year. Look where the team finished during the regular season...look where the team went out in the playoffs. I mean, if you are going to give goalies the credit for WINS then that should be a pretty accurate account of how a goalie LIVED UP during the playoffs.

I don't think goalies are as important as most feel these days. I know they are the most visible...every goal they prevent is obvious. Also, the whole argument about goalies playing an entire game...that is stupid...a) they only play in the defense zone. b) if the role was as grueling as being a skater, they wouldn't last a whole game c) the amount of ice that a goalie actually defends is a far far amount less than the area any defenseman covers. One defenseman can largely shutdown a top line and a powerplay unit while iginiting offense...i'd say that impact is far greater. But that is the unpopular view...so i take my lumps for believe such.

Anyway...by potential, i don't know how you can hold Brodeur or Roy so far ahead of a lot of their peers. And especially Hasek. But geesh, Belfour and Khabibulin and Kolzig should be considered in any arguments too...

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Old
11-27-2007, 03:32 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DickSmehlik View Post
This thread is who is the best goaltender, if you want to argue who is the best winner then start your own useless thread.
No, I don't think these boards need 3 different threads that will turn out to be the same topic. I don't try and clutter the boards like some people.

I also didn't say defensmen or forwards main goal wasn't to win the cup....you assumed that. Its the same thing with defensmen and fowards, their main goal isn't stat padding and if it is they probably won't be part of any cup winning teams.

I think you are a touch sensative on the topic because Buffalo hasn't won anything. You can mumble all you want that Hasek was great and nearly lead them to a cup but when you look back at it in 10 years..they didn't win a cup.

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11-27-2007, 03:33 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmanian Devil View Post
As far as I understand, the consensus is Roy is the best of these three, then Hasek, the Brodeur. I never understood this thinking. I will try and break down my thinking.

Roy vs. Brodeur - the same old Brodeur excuses cant be used to downplay him because Roy played behind some stellar teams as well. Also, Brodeur has a slightly higher career sv%, so Brodeur haters can throw that out the window. So Roy is generally considered as better because of his playoff success. While I agree, I will just give some numbers to show brodeur isnt too far behind:

Win% SO SV% GAA Cups Conn Smythes
Roy .616 23 .918 2.30 4 3
Marty .582 21 .921 1.89 3 0

The only category Roy blows Marty away in is Conn Smythes and Marty EASILY could have won it any three times he won the cup especially when he was robbed of it by Giguere. Here are his stats in those playoffs:

Year SO GAA SV%
94-95 3 1.67 .927
99-00 2 1.61 .927
02-03 7* 1.65 .934
*record for shutouts, including 3 in finals

Those are phenomenal numbers and the "good team" excuse is only so valid because look at his save percentages. For example, he lost in the first round in 01-02 with a 1.42 GAA and a .938 sv%, so his team in front of him couldnt have been that good at all. I could see some people picking Roy for one game as more of a "money goalie," but Brodeurs postseason numbers are pretty close to Roy's and he was slightly better in the regular season. Keep in mind ROy never even started 70 games. Marty's durability and puckhandling should definitely be taken into account.

As the numbers show, its pretty close so I can see people taking ROy over Marty. But heres the real headscratcher. People then rank Hasek in between Roy and Marty. Hasek in his prime was the most dominant goalie ever, easily better than both of them. But his prime was very short and that causes you to choose longevity vs. prime when discussing these goalies. How can someone choose longevity (or clutchness) when comparing Roy and Hasek, but choose prime when comparing Hasek and Brodeur. Keep in mind Brodeur and Roy BOTH played behind great teams, while Hasek didn;t for the most part. Also, once again Hasek only started 70 games once while Marty does it ever year. Brodeur had Hasek like numbers through January last year, leading the league in every major goaltending category, but those numbers fell because he started many more games than the dominator typically would in his career.

Sorry for the rant, but do I make valid points? Does Brodeur get downplayed by some? Can someone without bias explain the Roy then Hasek then Broduer logic? THanks.
I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this thread. It's too bad I have very limited time left in this lunch hour.

First, let me start by saying I believe it goes Roy, Hasek, Brodeur. To further extrapolate, I have Roy #1 of all time, Hasek #2, and Brodeur #7. I have found numerous times online that those who pick Brodeur as being the best of the three have a difficult time justifying it. i.e. they ignore that the criteria they use to justify Brodeur being better than Roy seem to invalidate Brodeur possibly being better than Hasek.... and vice versa. He's just plain not better than both. Any logical way you can look at it, he's no better than 2nd best of the three.

I will address any post in this thread that needs addressing, but for now I just have time for yours. First, did you actually look at the average overall rankings of each goalie's teams over the years? You are forgetting that Roy was on some less-than-stellar habs teams, and finished 7th and 9th overall with the Avs, it's not like they were presidents trophy winners each year, and those bad teams Hasek played on still finished 6th-11th overall in 6 of his 8 years there. Brodeur's Devils have been consistently 2nd-12th overall. After averaging out each goalie's team's finish each season and normalizing based on 30 teams, you will find that Roy played on teams that, on average, finished 6.8th overall. Brodeur was at 6.1 and Hasek 8.8. So your argument about strength of team actually works against Brodeur. Even still, I discount it entirely because this is a difference of 2.7 spots in the standings between the highest finisher and the lowest. It's negligible. More than anything, I pointed this out to dispel the myths and if we can put that part of the discussion aside, we get one step closer to the truth.

Brodeur may have a higher save percentage than Roy, but as has already been pointed out, Roy played in the high scoring era of 85-93, before Brodeur stepped on the ice in the NHL. Roy has actually been top-3 in save percentage six times: 1st three times, 2nd twice, and 3rd once. Brodeur has been 1st once and 2nd once. For someone who appears to have a huge statistical edge, it sure falls apart when dominance relative to peers comes into the equation.

As for smythes, if Brodeur could have "EASILY" won the smythe in his three cup wins, then why didn't he? He's a very likeable player and person, certainly moreso than Claude Lemieux and Scott Stevens. He was never THE most valuable player in his cup wins. The one time he was his team's MVP, another player on another team was significantly better. (I will paste my argument for Giguere's 2003 Smythe when I get a chance to dig it up) Roy, on the other hand, carried his teams to the cup twice, and the third time was (admittedly) one of three possible choices. Did I mention he beat Brodeur that year in the only major encounter between the two in their careers?

Durability has nothing to do with how good a goalie is, or it is negligible. Roy played 50-55 games a season when it was commonplace for a starter to do so. As the times changed and 60+ became the norm, he started that many games despite being older than he once was (obviously) - in the years that he and Brodeur were in the league together, Brodeur did play more games, but it was not a significant number more that one would be able to say "oh, look, Brodeur can handle more games therefore he is better." As for puckhandling, it's great, but it's just one attribute. It's like saying "Rico Fata is great because he is fast" but if that speed never got him more NHL goals or some other significant contribution to his team, it's moot. I'm not saying Brodeur's puckhandling did not contribute to New Jersey's success, but even with his puckhandling, he has "only" three cups and no smythe. Perhaps without it he would have 1-2 fewer cups and 1-2 fewer vezinas. In other words it has contributed to his success and does not need to be "doubled up" in any argument as to why he's better than anyone.

Roy is 40-18 in playoff OT and Brodeur is 10-19. Just thought I'd add that in here because I have no good segue sentence for it.

Anyway, I think you have attempted in earnest to make a good case but it falls apart under further scrutiny.

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Old
11-27-2007, 03:39 PM
  #110
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I pick:

Hasek
Roy
Brodeur

Let's not forget: Roy is the all-time record holder for LOSING game 7's! He lost more possible elimination games than any other goalie in history, so all this talk about "playoff greatness" is exaggerated greatly.

Another thing: Hull was in the crease AFTER the puck was. He pulled it out and around Hasek and scored. Goal. End of discussion. Watch the video clip again. The puck was IN THE CREASE, then Hull's toe was, then Hull pulled the puck around Dom and scored. But I would still take Dom in 1998 or 1999 as my goalie if I had to win a game.

No knock on Marty. He is one of the top 6 or 7 goalies of all-time (behind Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Hall, Dryden, and maybe Roy), but benefitted from his team's style of defensive play. Last year when they opened it up slightly, he gave up more bad goals than I've ever seen him give up. Coincidence?

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11-27-2007, 03:43 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
Let's not forget: Roy is the all-time record holder for LOSING game 7's! He lost more possible elimination games than any other goalie in history, so all this talk about "playoff greatness" is exaggerated greatly.
Since you remember this part (and don't want us to forget it), how about if you remind us how many Game Sevens Roy appeared in along with other prominent goaltender's totals?

It's hard to lose a game seven if you don't appear in one, unless you're prepared to admit that Roy, Brodeur and Hasek are all worse than Kay Whitmore, because all three lost far more playoff games than Whitmore.

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11-27-2007, 03:49 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Since you remember this part (and don't want us to forget it), how about if you remind us how many Game Sevens Roy appeared in along with other prominent goaltender's totals?

It's hard to lose a game seven if you don't appear in one, unless you're prepared to admit that Roy, Brodeur and Hasek are all worse than Kay Whitmore, because all three lost far more playoff games than Whitmore.
It would be interesting to see how many games 6s Roy lost to get to the game 7s, also. Especially on that Colorado team - the one that should have beaten most of the Western Conference teams anyway...other than Detroit.

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11-27-2007, 03:55 PM
  #113
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epic troll is epic

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11-27-2007, 04:05 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGraveOne View Post
It would be interesting to see how many games 6s Roy lost to get to the game 7s, also. Especially on that Colorado team - the one that should have beaten most of the Western Conference teams anyway...other than Detroit.
I'm not able to compile the numbers at the moment, but the raw data is available at my site:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hasek.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/brodeurm.html

At the bottom of each page. Playoff games are in green (unless they're also shutouts, in which case, they're - eh, you'll figure it out )

(Roy's first game in 1984-85 is not there yet because I'm still working on that season - http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=399300 - but it doesn't affect what we're doing here)

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11-27-2007, 04:06 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmanian Devil View Post
As far as I understand, the consensus is Roy is the best of these three, then Hasek, the Brodeur. I never understood this thinking. I will try and break down my thinking.

Roy vs. Brodeur - the same old Brodeur excuses cant be used to downplay him because Roy played behind some stellar teams as well. Also, Brodeur has a slightly higher career sv%, so Brodeur haters can throw that out the window. So Roy is generally considered as better because of his playoff success. While I agree, I will just give some numbers to show brodeur isnt too far behind:

Win% SO SV% GAA Cups Conn Smythes
Roy .616 23 .918 2.30 4 3
Marty .582 21 .921 1.89 3 0

The only category Roy blows Marty away in is Conn Smythes and Marty EASILY could have won it any three times he won the cup especially when he was robbed of it by Giguere. Here are his stats in those playoffs:

Year SO GAA SV%
94-95 3 1.67 .927
99-00 2 1.61 .927
02-03 7* 1.65 .934
*record for shutouts, including 3 in finals

Those are phenomenal numbers and the "good team" excuse is only so valid because look at his save percentages. For example, he lost in the first round in 01-02 with a 1.42 GAA and a .938 sv%, so his team in front of him couldnt have been that good at all. I could see some people picking Roy for one game as more of a "money goalie," but Brodeurs postseason numbers are pretty close to Roy's and he was slightly better in the regular season. Keep in mind ROy never even started 70 games. Marty's durability and puckhandling should definitely be taken into account.

As the numbers show, its pretty close so I can see people taking ROy over Marty. But heres the real headscratcher. People then rank Hasek in between Roy and Marty. Hasek in his prime was the most dominant goalie ever, easily better than both of them. But his prime was very short and that causes you to choose longevity vs. prime when discussing these goalies. How can someone choose longevity (or clutchness) when comparing Roy and Hasek, but choose prime when comparing Hasek and Brodeur. Keep in mind Brodeur and Roy BOTH played behind great teams, while Hasek didn;t for the most part. Also, once again Hasek only started 70 games once while Marty does it ever year. Brodeur had Hasek like numbers through January last year, leading the league in every major goaltending category, but those numbers fell because he started many more games than the dominator typically would in his career.

Sorry for the rant, but do I make valid points? Does Brodeur get downplayed by some? Can someone without bias explain the Roy then Hasek then Broduer logic? THanks.

Roy - Brodeur - Hasek

Roy is the best goalie ever because he just is!!! He has great numbers and he was the best money goalie there ever was. He changed the way the position was played bringing the butterfly style to the league and there was never a goalie who was so successful in the playoffs as Roy. People say that Roy played for great Montreal and Colorado teams, but he also played for some pretty crappy teams and still put up good numbers and in 93 nobody seen the Canadiens making the playoffs let alone winning a cup. Add 3 Conn Smythe's to that and you have the best goalie to ever play in the NHL.....HANDS DOWN!!!

Brodeur is a great goalie too, but he is not considered a money goalie like Roy. Brodeur excelled at playing the puck and he was the best goalie at doing so. Roy liked to play the puck just about as much, but he wasn't as slick as Brodeur is at it. Marty has had the pleasure of playing with the same core of hockey players for the last decade. They were all used to playing together, they were all used to playing the same style and it benefitted Brodeur greatly. Marty could win games all by himself, but there were a lot of nights where he didn't have to do too much to get the win....the strong Devils defence kept the shots from out at the perimeter.
The Devils solid defensive style has been the main factor to Brodeur being able to stay healthy and play in 70+ games a year....which is going to eventually help him break Roy's all time wins record.

Hasek was the most dominant at his prime for sure, but injuries kept him from having the long successful career he could have had. I don't know a lot about Hasek so I can't go on about him.

So with that all being said....I must say that there will never be another goaltender that has meant as much to the NHL as Patrick Roy. Brodeur is a very close second, but Roys ability to change the outcome of a game all by himself is what sets him apart from the rest of the pack. Nobody could keep the puck out like him.

Of course this is just my honest opinion....I'm sure many will disagree.....but you have to take a lot of things into consideration.....you can't just base a decision like this on a few stats and Stanley Cups.

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11-27-2007, 04:22 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Hasek was the most dominant at his prime for sure, but injuries kept him from having the long successful career he could have had.

What injuries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
I don't know a lot about Hasek so I can't go on about him.
We know.

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11-27-2007, 04:25 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
What injuries?



We know.
Hasek got a fairly late start to his career and did suffer injuries at key times in seasons that have had people raise questions. If I needed to steal a game or two I would go with Hasek. If I had one shot at a stanley cup I would take Roy. If I needed someone to make the big save I would take Brodeur. Then again as I said all thread...all three are world class.

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11-27-2007, 04:39 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10 View Post
Let's not forget: Roy is the all-time record holder for LOSING game 7's! He lost more possible elimination games than any other goalie in history, so all this talk about "playoff greatness" is exaggerated greatly.

I think the 4 Stanley Cups and 3 Conn Smythes (record) have more to do with that than his record in game 7s. Nolan Ryan is the all-time record leader in walks but he is also the all-time leader in strikeouts. One often comes with the other.

Quote:
This may be a useless stat but as far as individual awards, in the 9 seasons that all 3 goaltenders where all starting and in the league together (1993-2002):

Roy
1 Conn Smythe
Should be 2. 1993 & 2001.


My rankings:
1. Roy
2. Hasek
3. Brodeur

Roy is the greatest goalie in playoff history. Amazing how only last season going into the playoffs, Brodeur had played something like 153 games in the playoffs while Roy has won 151. Just incredible.

Hasek only won the cup on a stacked Red Wings team in 02. However he was definately a great regular season goalie.

Brodeur on the other hand is showing that his playoff success is more due to Stevens and Niedermayer than anything else. If he doesn't win again before he retires, which I suspect he won't, there's 0 chance I would move him ahead of Hasek.

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11-27-2007, 04:50 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by 19nazzy View Post

Hasek only won the cup on a stacked Red Wings team in 02. However he was definately a great regular season goalie.

He has better numbers in the playoffs than the regular season, so I don't know what you're talking about.

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11-27-2007, 04:53 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this thread. It's too bad I have very limited time left in this lunch hour.

First, let me start by saying I believe it goes Roy, Hasek, Brodeur. To further extrapolate, I have Roy #1 of all time, Hasek #2, and Brodeur #7. I have found numerous times online that those who pick Brodeur as being the best of the three have a difficult time justifying it. i.e. they ignore that the criteria they use to justify Brodeur being better than Roy seem to invalidate Brodeur possibly being better than Hasek.... and vice versa. He's just plain not better than both. Any logical way you can look at it, he's no better than 2nd best of the three.
I like Hasek best, but I can certainly see the argument for Roy. I must agree with you that I can't see any good argument to have Brodeur as #1. His carrer is just a lesser version of Roy's (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Having seen all 3 guys play a ton in the regular season, playoffs, and intenationally, I have to give the nod to Hasek. Just based on observation, Hasek's the greatest goalie I've ever seen. His flakiness is the only thing that gives me pause, but during his prime years he was much more consistant and slightly less crazy than he is today.

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11-27-2007, 05:33 PM
  #121
19nazzy
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Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
He has better numbers in the playoffs than the regular season, so I don't know what you're talking about.
1 Stanley Cup
vs.
6? Vezinas
Hart Trophy

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11-27-2007, 06:06 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
He has better numbers in the playoffs than the regular season, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19nazzy View Post
1 Stanley Cup
vs.
6? Vezinas
Hart Trophy
That argument makes absolutely no sense.

So, despite the fact that in reality Hasek himself actually played better in the playoffs, his postseason play is considered worse than his regular season play because the Rigas family penny pinched the organization for years and wouldn't build any semblance of a cup contender around him?

The argument that Hasek can't be considered as great as Roy and Brodeur because of his lack of playoff success is fundamentally flawed, and really doesn't have any bearing on his individual abilities. There is a substantial argument to be made in Hasek's lack of durability and how short his prime was, but lack of playoff success really has nothing to do with Hasek.

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11-27-2007, 06:28 PM
  #123
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
He has better numbers in the playoffs than the regular season, so I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't disagree with your viewpoint as a whole, but his numbers getting better don't necessarily prove anything. Scoring goes down in the playoffs... a lot.

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Old
11-27-2007, 06:36 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't disagree with your viewpoint as a whole, but his numbers getting better don't necessarily prove anything. Scoring goes down in the playoffs... a lot.

So then the Conn Smythe should never go to a goaltender, right?

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11-27-2007, 06:37 PM
  #125
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So then the Conn Smythe should never go to a goaltender, right?
This doesn't follow from what has been said.

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