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Trade: Richards for Ovechkin?

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Old
12-02-2007, 10:32 AM
  #101
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"I would not rip Holmgren if he acquired Ovechkin for Richards".

I LOLed, sorry.

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12-02-2007, 10:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SilverCup View Post


if you guys have to think about it, I'll take Ovechkin.
But you're more accustomed to all promise and no delivery.

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12-02-2007, 10:39 AM
  #103
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*** what? Did Edmonton win a Cup without Gretzky and Gretzky not win again? Yes and yes.

Did Mario win without a stacked team? It was much more than just Jagr. No

Did Lindros ever win? No

So what do "generational talents" guarantee? Besides exhilarating viewing experiences that can be had no matter what team they are on. Cups are won by teams, which is what I want to see more than anything else from the guys wearing the logo I root for, and it is proven that these types are not necessary for that success. Gretzky and Lindros also proved that they become big-headed prima donnas that demand trades regardless of fan loyalty to them and then come up short of delivering the goods.

Thanks again, but I'll pass, again. Fortunately for each of us neither of us are our teams GM's so it's all moot.



OK, this is more understandable. Doesn't however make it right. Are you comparing any NHL team today to those Oilers teams? That's just wrong cause Oilers minus Gretz were still better than anyone else...but would they have beaten the Islanders for their first cup? It's possible but I seriously doubt it. The funny thing is that you essentially give the stars of these cup winners no credit for their cups...you're strying to sit on both sides of the fence.


Could Tampa have won the cup in 04 without Lecavalier? The last time I checked we've been in Cup Finals with and without Lindros since 1980...did we win any more with him than without him? When did Gretzky "demand" a trade?

The point is moot cause Washington would have to be ******** to trade Ovy for anything less than a huge overpayment and although a Superstar may not be necessary for a Cup....they sure do help.

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Old
12-02-2007, 10:48 AM
  #104
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You aren't guaranteed anything in sports, unless you have the French judges and Russian mafia on your side.

Seriously, just because a player with a generational talent doesn't bring a written guarantee to winning a Stanley Cup with him-- his value isn't any less.

You can name players that were considered generational talent and have never won- do you think GMs use that strategy while negotiating?
The conversation might go something like this: "Hey, Shero, Burkie here. Say, you know that Bure has never won, so obviously Crosby's value is questionable, so how about a...".

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12-02-2007, 11:21 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
OK, this is more understandable. Doesn't however make it right. Are you comparing any NHL team today to those Oilers teams? That's just wrong cause Oilers minus Gretz were still better than anyone else...but would they have beaten the Islanders for their first cup? It's possible but I seriously doubt it. The funny thing is that you essentially give the stars of these cup winners no credit for their cups...you're strying to sit on both sides of the fence.


Could Tampa have won the cup in 04 without Lecavalier? The last time I checked we've been in Cup Finals with and without Lindros since 1980...did we win any more with him than without him? When did Gretzky "demand" a trade?

The point is moot cause Washington would have to be ******** to trade Ovy for anything less than a huge overpayment and although a Superstar may not be necessary for a Cup....they sure do help.
Neither is right, they are both gambles. It is how I would hedge my own bet. I am not taking away credit to the rest of the teams players. I am showing that their best players were not the reason for them winning Cups. Not the same as sitting in the middle.

As I understand it he wanted to be in LA with his actress wife. There's conflicting reports, but that's to be expected when a legends image is in question. I'm more likely to agree with this version adding in that he gets to be the savior of US hockey. Maybe Edmonton's GM wanted to get rid of the greatest single player ever, but I'm not sure that's logical or realistic. Maybe he knew they didn't need him, hmmmm....

It would be a huge overpayment. In fact it would likely take players away that while he can do all that they can you'd be better off with them on the ice against all those other guys on the other team. He only gets one shift at a time(generally) and can only cover his general space. That hurts the team aspect and why the trade would be absolutely wrong for a team who is close to putting it all together, disregarding any cap issues.

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12-02-2007, 11:25 AM
  #106
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You're wrong.
No I'm not.

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12-02-2007, 11:30 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by aylib View Post
You aren't guaranteed anything in sports, unless you have the French judges and Russian mafia on your side.

Seriously, just because a player with a generational talent doesn't bring a written guarantee to winning a Stanley Cup with him-- his value isn't any less.

You can name players that were considered generational talent and have never won- do you think GMs use that strategy while negotiating?
The conversation might go something like this: "Hey, Shero, Burkie here. Say, you know that Bure has never won, so obviously Crosby's value is questionable, so how about a...".
I'm not arguing value. A Mercedes is a much better and more valuable car than mine, but I don't need a Mercedes or the high cost of ownership. It's a question of team need to build a winner, not fill seats. Lindros did that for the Flyers, and we're still waiting for the ultimate prize.

Of course GM's don't use that strategy, but they aren't trying to help the other guy either. A good GM is looking for fit in building his team. The Flyers have a group of guys who do what Ovy does by himself, but the team is better with all of them than one replacement.

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12-02-2007, 11:34 AM
  #108
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No I'm not.

Well look at the minutes and watch the games and you'll see we have a line 1 and line 1b....Richards is on the 1st power play unit on the point but I guess they're playing their 2nd tier penalty killers and defenders against that unit. All you have to do is look at the total minutes. How many shorties does Briere have this year?

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Old
12-02-2007, 11:43 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
I'm not arguing value. A Mercedes is a much better and more valuable car than mine, but I don't need a Mercedes or the high cost of ownership. It's a question of team need to build a winner, not fill seats. Lindros did that for the Flyers, and we're still waiting for the ultimate prize.

Of course GM's don't use that strategy, but they aren't trying to help the other guy either. A good GM is looking for fit in building his team. The Flyers have a group of guys who do what Ovy does by himself, but the team is better with all of them than one replacement.



We're still waiting for the Ultimate prize because Konstantinov and the Red Wings dominated our "whole team." Different teams have different recipes for success...yours is not necessarily always the right formula. Lindros was our best player during that run and the only reason we got as far as we did.

If you're saying that one star and a bunch of hacks can't win a cup, no one's arguing.

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Old
12-02-2007, 12:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
We're still waiting for the Ultimate prize because Konstantinov and the Red Wings dominated our "whole team." Different teams have different recipes for success...yours is not necessarily always the right formula. Lindros was our best player during that run and the only reason we got as far as we did.

If you're saying that one star and a bunch of hacks can't win a cup, no one's arguing.
How many teams have won without an Ovy, Lindros, Gretzky, Crosby, Bure(somebody threw him in there), Lemieux, etc.? Seems my recipe has a much higher success rate.

How did Konstantinov get special mention out of all the players in Detroit? They didn't seem to need him for their next two, one of which was the following season. Maybe that's why you are struggling with my perspective on this issue.

If no one is arguing then why do people think we should get him and the rest of the team be damned? My original point, and I still hold to it, was these guys don't win alone and Lindros had a decent cast that gets marginalized when discussing that era. According to Keith Jones(who came in after that season) it was Lindros' insistence on more minutes for himself that separated the locker room(among other rumored possibilities), splintering the team, making them incapable of winning the ultimate prize. He was also very ineffective with all his minutes in that series, 2 assists in the first game and 1 goal in the last. The East was very weak back then as well. Why should I believe Ovy will bring anything different than his predecessors?

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12-02-2007, 12:19 PM
  #111
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No, because I think players while like Ovechkin are awesome to watch, they might actually be a hindrence in building a winner. You can't have a single player eat up 20% of your cap and build a winner, unless that player is a goalie.

With the Flyers in particular, we already have one cap-eating monster in Briere ... 2 would be devastating to winning the cup.

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Old
12-02-2007, 12:32 PM
  #112
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It doesn't really matter, anyway. Washington would want more than Richards for Ovy, and the more they'd want, Philly wouldn't give. It's a non-issue.

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12-02-2007, 12:56 PM
  #113
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It doesn't really matter, anyway. Washington would want more than Richards for Ovy, and the more they'd want, Philly wouldn't give. It's a non-issue.
Yeah, but it's fun to talk about even if it is a non-issue as you say.

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12-02-2007, 04:38 PM
  #114
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You guys are hilarious. 2 good months from Richards and you mention him in the same breath as Ovechkin? Next you'll tell me you wouldn't do Umberger for Crosby. Get real, Philly would JUMP at this trade and Washington would laugh at it.
You are partially right, I would have to do it but I wouldnt like acquiring Crosby for a sack of pucks. Old school Flyers fans dont like that homo and it would take some great adjustment to hold back the gag reflex seeing Cindy in orange and black.

Okay lemme have it.

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12-02-2007, 04:43 PM
  #115
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Yeah, but it's fun to talk about even if it is a non-issue as you say.
You are right here, this was started for fun and clearly not as a rumor, I realized that there are many others that are stupid like me that dont want to part with Richards.

I already know that many flyer fans hate Crosby, Jagr, and many others so its not worth a post. Of course youd be a fool to not want Crosby on your team, that being said, Id still never admit it.

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12-02-2007, 05:40 PM
  #116
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Yeah, but it's fun to talk about even if it is a non-issue as you say.
I absolutely agree, and I come up with more trade proposals than most people do on here, but it can be a real problem when you have 1) homer fans overrating their own team's assets; 2) rival fans who ridicule any deal for "their" guys, no matter what; 3) bad cap information, etc. As an exercise, though, it can be very fun and entertaining, and you can learn a lot about real and perceived values of players across the league. I have that organizational/tactical negotiation aspect of my personality, so I like to problem solve, find new fits for people, and so on.

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12-03-2007, 09:54 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
How many teams have won without an Ovy, Lindros, Gretzky, Crosby, Bure(somebody threw him in there), Lemieux, etc.? Seems my recipe has a much higher success rate.

How did Konstantinov get special mention out of all the players in Detroit? They didn't seem to need him for their next two, one of which was the following season. Maybe that's why you are struggling with my perspective on this issue.

If no one is arguing then why do people think we should get him and the rest of the team be damned? My original point, and I still hold to it, was these guys don't win alone and Lindros had a decent cast that gets marginalized when discussing that era. According to Keith Jones(who came in after that season) it was Lindros' insistence on more minutes for himself that separated the locker room(among other rumored possibilities), splintering the team, making them incapable of winning the ultimate prize. He was also very ineffective with all his minutes in that series, 2 assists in the first game and 1 goal in the last. The East was very weak back then as well. Why should I believe Ovy will bring anything different than his predecessors?


No one said damn the rest of the team and if you watched that Finals series you'd see that Detroit left-wing locked us to death and Konstantinov destroyed our forwards to the point that they didn't want to cross the red line. You're seriously just talking out of your **** about Gretzky demanding a trade . Make stuff up much? Try watching the old footage of The Wings- Flyers series cause it sounds like you're reading too much Eklund.

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12-03-2007, 09:56 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
How many teams have won without an Ovy, Lindros, Gretzky, Crosby, Bure(somebody threw him in there), Lemieux, etc.? Seems my recipe has a much higher success rate.

How did Konstantinov get special mention out of all the players in Detroit? They didn't seem to need him for their next two, one of which was the following season. Maybe that's why you are struggling with my perspective on this issue.

If no one is arguing then why do people think we should get him and the rest of the team be damned? My original point, and I still hold to it, was these guys don't win alone and Lindros had a decent cast that gets marginalized when discussing that era. According to Keith Jones(who came in after that season) it was Lindros' insistence on more minutes for himself that separated the locker room(among other rumored possibilities), splintering the team, making them incapable of winning the ultimate prize. He was also very ineffective with all his minutes in that series, 2 assists in the first game and 1 goal in the last. The East was very weak back then as well. Why should I believe Ovy will bring anything different than his predecessors?


Go cheer for the Devils then.

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Old
12-04-2007, 03:32 PM
  #119
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Anyone who would not trade Richards for Ovechkin belongs in an asylum.

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12-04-2007, 03:36 PM
  #120
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Recipe for this to work.

-2/3 cup of knowledge (missing)
-<1 Players (Happy we got this)
-4 tbp reasoning (still not seeing any)
-3/4 tsp of antihomerism (not here)
-5 oz of logic (we gotta pick some of this up)

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Old
12-04-2007, 03:37 PM
  #121
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Recipe for this to work.

-2/3 cup of knowledge (missing)
-<1 Players (Happy we got this)
-4 tbp reasoning (still not seeing any)
-3/4 tsp of antihomerism (not here)
-5 oz of logic (we gotta pick some of this up)
Suicide. Now.

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