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Potential Hall of Famers: Do they make it? (Coaches)

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12-01-2007, 05:50 PM
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Big Phil
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Potential Hall of Famers: Do they make it? (Coaches)

Pat Quinn - As the coach not as the player of course. The thing that bothers me about Quinn is that he has never won the Cup. It may not be an issue to some but to me a coach that hasnt won is similar to a goaltender that hasnt won. Eddie Giacomin is pretty much the only goalie I can think of who is a sure-fire deserving hall of Famer that never won a Cup. No one argues about Giacomin. But then again there was a time span when he was the best goalie in the game. Quinn won Gold in Salt Lake in '02 and coached Canada to the World Cup in '04. Twice he was coach of the year ('80 and '92). 5 times he coached teams to 100+ point seasons and he twice sent his teams into the Cup final. It'll be hard to see how the Hall can ommit a guy that has over 600 wins. Quinn himself is on the HHOF committee. Still though he's been near the elite for a long time and from 1987 to 2006 his teams did not miss the playoffs

Pat Burns - Unlike Quinn he won a Cup in 2003. He coached in another Cup final in '89 his first year. He was coach of the year in '89, ;93, '98. What's going for him is not just the Cup but the fact that he improved every team he started with the instant he stepped in there. He led teams to two 100+ point seasons. Boston was last in the league in '97 and the next year they made the playoffs and had 91 points.

Mike Keenan - IMO I dont know how the Hall cant induct him. Love him or not he's had a lot of success in many markets. He was coach of the year in '85. The Flyers led the league in points that year after losing Clarke, Barber and Sittler. Keenan coached Canada Cup victories in '87 and '91. He won the Cup in '94. He's coached 5 100+ point seasons. He's made the Cup finals three other times. The thing that bugs me is that since '94 he's been lousy for the most part. That bugs me about him. And his win/loss % has gotten worse over the years. He did nothing in Vancouver, Boston and Florida and so far with Calgary he's looking grim.

Bryan Murray - He's choked in so many opportunities and at times when his teams were poised to win. Washington should have never lost in the playoffs at that frequency that they did and sometimes you thought that Murray had the knack of being badly outcoached. In the regular season he has had tremendous success. He's coached very good teams. The thing is that he isnt unlike Quinn, with no Cup and good regular season success. Except at times when Canada came calling for top level tournys it was guys like Bowman, Sather, Keenan and Quinn that were asked. That hurts him but can it keep him out of the Hall? All four of the above coaches have better resumes than the lovable Roger Neilson if that helps any.

Fred Shero - I know everyone hated the Flyers back then but isnt it about time we acknowledge Shero? He had more success than Don Cherry and considerably less than Bowman in the same time frame. While Bowman is a ways ahead of him the truth is was there a more succesful coach in the 70s than Freddie the Fog? 390-225-119 is a great record. He also has 2 Cups, 4 visits to the Cup finals and 5 100+ point seasons. Not to mention he created a style that was great, not always popular but great and very successful

Ken Hitchcock - Everything he has touched has turned to gold. Yes just one Cup so far in Dallas but while he was not popular with his style he used it well and for about 5-6 years Dallas was always an elite contender. He went to Philly and transformed them as well even though they had the good team to begin with. What impresses me is what he's done on Columbus so far. He has taken a team of a one trick pony (Rick Nash) and basically a bunch of glorified AHLers and turned them into a .500 team flirting with a playoff spot. Who would have guessed that? Not me. By the end of his career he'll have a hard time staying out of the Hall. Canada has asked him for help with the Olympic teams for a reason

Side Note: Just for fun how about talking about a guy like Viktor Tikhonov. I'm almost positive he isnt a Hall of Famer yet.

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12-01-2007, 06:49 PM
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Keep one thing in mind before responding: there isn't a coach's wing in the HHOF. There is a builders wing. That's where coaches fit in. But there's a difference between being a great coach, and a great builder.

If it was the coach's wing, Fred Shero would be in there. But when the word "builder" enters debate, it changes perception. Was Shero a great coach? Undoubtedly. I think he's one of the top 10 ever. Was he a great builder? No. The man is likely as much responsible for hockey's reputation as a goon show sport as anyone.

You can argue that guys like Adams, Imlach, Smythe and Ballard are in there, but it's the old saying: don't judge on the worst cases. Argue based on who's in there.

I think that under the term "builder," Roger Neilson and Herb Brooks have to be in the HHOF. Roger should have been inducted before he got really sick. Brooks should have been inducted after all the great U.S. born players that came up after the Miracle on Ice. Not just fine coaches, but key contributors to the game itself.

I think Burns will make it. He's a throw-back. He's won three Adams Trophies. And a Cup. Well-liked guy. I think Quinn will eventually get in. I don't think Keenan makes it. And Murray definitely doesn't. The 2007 playoffs was the first time that a Bryan Murray-coached team advanced past the second round of the playoffs. And he had some exceptional teams in Washington and Detroit.

Who should be the next one inducted as a builder? Herb Carnegie. And after him, junior A wins record holder Dwight McMillian. Coming up on 1,000 wins, all with the Weyburn Red Wings. He's junior A's answer to Brian Kilrea. And Kilrea's in the HHOF, and deservedly so. (In fact, Kilrea is the only coach with more junior wins than McMillian).

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12-01-2007, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Keep one thing in mind before responding: there isn't a coach's wing in the HHOF. There is a builders wing. That's where coaches fit in. But there's a difference between being a great coach, and a great builder.

If it was the coach's wing, Fred Shero would be in there. But when the word "builder" enters debate, it changes perception. Was Shero a great coach? Undoubtedly. I think he's one of the top 10 ever. Was he a great builder? No. The man is likely as much responsible for hockey's reputation as a goon show sport as anyone.

You can argue that guys like Adams, Imlach, Smythe and Ballard are in there, but it's the old saying: don't judge on the worst cases. Argue based on who's in there.

I think that under the term "builder," Roger Neilson and Herb Brooks have to be in the HHOF. Roger should have been inducted before he got really sick. Brooks should have been inducted after all the great U.S. born players that came up after the Miracle on Ice. Not just fine coaches, but key contributors to the game itself.

I think Burns will make it. He's a throw-back. He's won three Adams Trophies. And a Cup. Well-liked guy. I think Quinn will eventually get in. I don't think Keenan makes it. And Murray definitely doesn't. The 2007 playoffs was the first time that a Bryan Murray-coached team advanced past the second round of the playoffs. And he had some exceptional teams in Washington and Detroit.

Who should be the next one inducted as a builder? Herb Carnegie. And after him, junior A wins record holder Dwight McMillian. Coming up on 1,000 wins, all with the Weyburn Red Wings. He's junior A's answer to Brian Kilrea. And Kilrea's in the HHOF, and deservedly so. (In fact, Kilrea is the only coach with more junior wins than McMillian).
I never knew Ballard was in the hall? You learn something knew every day. My question is, is how in the name of god did this man get into the HHOF? I always kind of thought of him as the Hitler of hockey. The guy was a genuine *******, through and through.

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12-01-2007, 08:58 PM
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I never knew Ballard was in the hall? You learn something knew every day. My question is, is how in the name of god did this man get into the HHOF? I always kind of thought of him as the Hitler of hockey. The guy was a genuine *******, through and through.
Buddy system especially for "builders". after all even eagleson was in there (for a while)

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12-01-2007, 11:54 PM
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Buddy system especially for "builders". after all even eagleson was in there (for a while)
Bingo. Ballard was inducted in 77. I think the HHOF Builders' wing has gotten better with their inductions over the last 15 years, since the Gil Stein debacle. Getting guys like Brooks and Kilrea was a step in the right direction.

Ken Holland's another guy I'd like to see in the Builder's wing.

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12-02-2007, 12:02 AM
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Bingo. Ballard was inducted in 77. I think the HHOF Builders' wing has gotten better with their inductions over the last 15 years, since the Gil Stein debacle. Getting guys like Brooks and Kilrea was a step in the right direction.

Ken Holland's another guy I'd like to see in the Builder's wing.
...Hummm... What's the Gil Stein debacle? I mean... I heard the name, but I wonder what does it have to do with the HHOF.

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12-02-2007, 03:11 AM
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What about David Conte?

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12-02-2007, 09:43 AM
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What about David Conte?
No chance.

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12-02-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Pat Quinn - As the coach not as the player of course. The thing that bothers me about Quinn is that he has never won the Cup. It may not be an issue to some but to me a coach that hasnt won is similar to a goaltender that hasnt won.
Why is this so much more of a big deal for goalies and coaches than it is for the many great forwards who never won it (especially in the modern 20-30 team NHL)?

Having seen the good and bad of Pat Quinn, I think he has to go in. Great longevity, a ton of wins, 2 Jack Adams (and 1 runner up), 2 finals appearances (taking it to 6 and 7 games respectively), and teams that made the playoffs all but 2 years and rarely bowed out in the first round. Won a very important Olympic Gold as well.

There seems to be more of a stigma for a coach to have never won the big one, but really, did he "accomplish" less than a Gilbert Perreault or a Darryl Sittler did in their respective field?

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12-02-2007, 12:12 PM
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What about David Conte?
He's been great for the Devils but I don't think he goes in. I would think that Lou Lamoriello will get serious consideration. He's built 3 cup winning teams and what was one of the top teams in the league for about 10 years. He also was a hugely important figure in college hockey and helped promote US hockey, with the Devils being ahead of the curve in drafting college players. He's also highly respected for helping other GM's careers (Burke, Wilson).

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12-02-2007, 12:46 PM
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Gil Stein was the NHL's VP to John Ziegler. He became the league's interim president when Ziegler resigned after the NHL strike in 1992. Stein was also buddy-buddy with now-convicted con artist Bruce McNall, back when McNall was one of the most powerful people in the NHL.

Stein was inept. He turfed long-time NHL disciplinarian Brian O'Neill, took over the job himself, and implemented what was quite possibly the worst rule in the history of North American pro sports - suspending players for non-game day practices. Dougie Gilmour slashes Thomas Sandstrom on the arm, and breaks the super-pest's arm? Six non-game day practices.

Stein engineered his own induction to the HHOF in 1993. He changed the induction criteria for builders, from 78 per cent of the vote needed, to 50 per cent. He hand-picked selection committee members. And he blocked O'Neill's induction. (O'Neill has since joined the HHOF). New commish Gary Bettman announced an investigation, and Stein was later removed from the HHOF. He'll never make it back in.

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12-02-2007, 03:28 PM
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Gil Stein was the NHL's VP to John Ziegler. He became the league's interim president when Ziegler resigned after the NHL strike in 1992. Stein was also buddy-buddy with now-convicted con artist Bruce McNall, back when McNall was one of the most powerful people in the NHL.

Stein was inept. He turfed long-time NHL disciplinarian Brian O'Neill, took over the job himself, and implemented what was quite possibly the worst rule in the history of North American pro sports - suspending players for non-game day practices. Dougie Gilmour slashes Thomas Sandstrom on the arm, and breaks the super-pest's arm? Six non-game day practices.

Stein engineered his own induction to the HHOF in 1993. He changed the induction criteria for builders, from 78 per cent of the vote needed, to 50 per cent. He hand-picked selection committee members. And he blocked O'Neill's induction. (O'Neill has since joined the HHOF). New commish Gary Bettman announced an investigation, and Stein was later removed from the HHOF. He'll never make it back in.

That's awesome, thanks buddy.
I know Stein's era has been awful when he was at the head of the league, but I didn't know the whole HHOF anecdote

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12-02-2007, 11:27 PM
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He's been great for the Devils but I don't think he goes in. I would think that Lou Lamoriello will get serious consideration. He's built 3 cup winning teams and what was one of the top teams in the league for about 10 years. He also was a hugely important figure in college hockey and helped promote US hockey, with the Devils being ahead of the curve in drafting college players. He's also highly respected for helping other GM's careers (Burke, Wilson).
Lou is probably the biggest lock there is on the builder's side. It would be an abomination to not induct him.

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12-03-2007, 02:16 AM
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Keenan should be a dead lock. 600 wins, a Stanley Cup, and I believe the only coach to win championships in junior, college, minor pro, international play, and the NHL. The success he had in the 15 years from 1979-1994 was just ridiculous - one of the best stretches any coach has had, ever. His last 10 years have been poor, but what he did pre-1994 should get him in easily. Plus he was an innovator who changed the way the game is coached in a lot of ways.

Quinn should probably make it as well. Only thing he doesn't have is a Stanley Cup, but he lost the Finals in 7 games twice. The Olympic Gold should put him over the top.

Murray has zero chance. A lot of regular-season NHL wins, but he's never won a thing that mattered.

Hitchcock has an outside change if his career keeps going well. Should put up 500 wins by the time his career is over, has a Cup, was a very well-respected person in the game.

Burns might have an outside shot as well. One problem with Burns is that he was never able to have an extended tenure anywhere - best 'first season' coach in NHL history, but things usually went all downhill from there.

Shero probably should have been in long ago, but it seems the voters hold the style of his team against him.

_________

In general, coaches are hugely under-represented in the HHOF. Very few inducted post-1967 (Bowman, Arbour, Neilson, Sather, and I think that's it) - basically 1/decade. Should be more coaches in - if all these guys aside from Murray were inducted, I'd have no problem with it at all.

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12-03-2007, 02:22 AM
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Keenan and Quinn are very likely going in. Keenan is pretty much a lock. He has a Stanley Cup, took two other teams to the Finals, has over 600 wins, and from 1984-1997, no Keenan-coached team ever missed the playoffs. He obviously is a very controversial figure, as his tactics work sometimes, and backfire other times. His motivation worked wonders with players like Alexei Kovalev and Joe Thornton, while it rubbed others the wrong way.

Quinn took two teams to the Finals, and made the playoffs in all but two of the 16 full seasons he coached. Don't write off what coaching in Toronto can do.

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