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Was trading Cullen a mistake?

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Old
12-03-2007, 10:04 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
not really. while his production certainly was crappy, we could have just waived him if we had to. it wouldnt be any different than now, except ticket prices might be a little more expensive to pay his salary.

not saying i would do that, because i wouldnt, but salary dumps for the sake of clearing cap space isnt really a big deal anymore, just waive the guy, and youre done.

You cant tell me nobody would give up more than hutchinson and barnes, 2 guys who will never, ever play for the rangers.
I have enough faith in Rangers' management to believe that if they could have gotten more for Cullen they would have. Clearly the point of the deal wasn't to acquire talent but to clear salary. A trade like that doesn't make sense if you are taking someone back who makes over a million at the NHL level.

I guess they could have waived him too, but this way at least they got SOMETHING back. Plus they could control what team he went to and didn't have to sit around waiting for someone to claim him.

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12-03-2007, 10:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice View Post
I have enough faith in Rangers' management to believe that if they could have gotten more for Cullen they would have. Clearly the point of the deal wasn't to acquire talent but to clear salary. A trade like that doesn't make sense if you are taking someone back who makes over a million at the NHL level.

I guess they could have waived him too, but this way at least they got SOMETHING back. Plus they could control what team he went to and didn't have to sit around waiting for someone to claim him.
honestly, im not so sure they did. i think they were trying to be accommodating to matt by sending him to a place he woudl be comfortable in.

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12-03-2007, 10:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
honestly, im not so sure they did. i think they were trying to be accommodating to matt by sending him to a place he woudl be comfortable in.
I believe that was part of the consideration, but I think it worked both ways. Carolina wanted him more than anyone because they knew he wanted to be there. What team is going to take a 45-point center at about $4 million per? Management has proven to me over the past few years that it is competent enough to make what it thinks is the best possible deal at the time, not send a player somewhere just because he will be happy there.

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12-03-2007, 10:26 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice View Post
I believe that was part of the consideration, but I think it worked both ways. Carolina wanted him more than anyone because they knew he wanted to be there. What team is going to take a 45-point center at about $4 million per? Management has proven to me over the past few years that it is competent enough to make what it thinks is the best possible deal at the time, not send a player somewhere just because he will be happy there.
there is also a team that pays an 80 point center 7+ million per year.

lets not be naive here

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12-03-2007, 10:38 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
there is also a team that pays an 80 point center 7+ million per year.

lets not be naive here
Supply and demand. If you're referring to the Gomez signing, I'm sure they realised it was a lot but they took a look at the organization and thought the only two centers they had with the potential to have an 80 point season, Anisimov and Dubinsky (and 80 points in a season would be awesome for Dubinsky) are a ways off. That was the Rangers' only crack at a 80 point center for the next three years probably, and he was only 27. A player like Cullen comes around more frequently.

If you are referring to the Drury signing over Nylander I think you might have a point though.

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Old
12-03-2007, 10:42 PM
  #31
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I still say we need more grit up front and a coach who doesn't contradict himself and make stupid decisions on a regular basis. Those are my only gripes.

I'm not going to go nuts over a loss where it seemed that no one showed up.

It happens from time to time. Once it starts happening regularly, then you complain.

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Originally Posted by TheSchwab View Post
trade that staal kid for cullen, he's no good he did nothing tonite!
That Staal kid should still be playing with Rozsival.

The fact that Malik can just walk back into that top pairing is a joke, and shows that Renney gives players special treatment who don't deserve it.

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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
trading cullen was NOT a mistake....trading cullen and getting an insignificant return was.
110% agreed.

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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Very true.

Cullen didn't fit into the way our team was playing. I'd still give him up in a heart beat to free up space for Gomer and Drury.
He played EXCELLENT down the stretch with Avery and Callahan. I'd LOVE to see that line back together again. They were fun to watch.

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12-03-2007, 11:08 PM
  #32
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In June when the Rangers are hoisting the cup, you'll be saying Matt who?

He had a couple assists, whoopdie do. If Gomez or Drury scored tonight you wouldn't say a word.

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12-03-2007, 11:09 PM
  #33
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That Staal kid should still be playing with Rozsival.

The fact that Malik can just walk back into that top pairing is a joke, and shows that Renney gives players special treatment who don't deserve it.
Staal is with Strudwick because Renney doesn't want to pair Malik with Strudwick which would be the slowest defensive pairing in history. Once Mara comes back, we'll see what Renney decides. Then we can truly say if this statement is true.

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12-03-2007, 11:13 PM
  #34
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I think the mistake was Renney not playing Cullen on the point on the powerplay. I mean, what did we have to do to get him to go with what had previously worked well for Cullen?

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12-03-2007, 11:23 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by PruBlue25 View Post
Staal is with Strudwick because Renney doesn't want to pair Malik with Strudwick which would be the slowest defensive pairing in history. Once Mara comes back, we'll see what Renney decides. Then we can truly say if this statement is true.
It's definitely true.

Staal played much better than Malik.

He doesn't make stupid up the middle passes for interceptions, he's a faster skater, is more physical, is smarter all over the ice, and has a better shot.

Malik isn't even in Staal's league at this point, Malik is an AHL defenseman.

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12-04-2007, 01:06 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
matt is severely overpaid, everyone in hockey knows it. but to get what we got, is a freaking joke.

Id rather take a 3rd round draft pick and call it a night.
Matt Cullen makes $2.8 million per season this year and the remainder of his contract. He has a cap hit of less than $3 million. When compared to other 3rd line centers that were on the market last season:

Todd White - $2.4 million for four years.
Eric Belanger - $1.7 million for three years.
Brett McLean - $1.75 million for three years.
Mike Comrie - $3.35 million for one year.
Viktor Kozlov - $2.5 million for two years.

These guys all signed last season for those numbers. Cullen has been head and shoulders better than all of them this season. To call him overpaid at all would be a mistake. I'm not trying to cast stones, but how does it make sense to compare production to contract values between Cullen, Drury, and Gomez and deduce that Cullen is severely overpaid....

27 points in 28 games is impressive for a 2nd line center. It is impressive for most first line centers. Matt Cullen may have been overpaid for the role he was slated for with NYR but he isn't overpaid for what he can bring in Carolina. Not by a long shot. I would venture that if he came up for a new contract at the end of this season he would get just as much and probably more in a new deal than he is making now. To me that is the ultimate judgement of how much a player is making and if they're worth it. When you have players like Hartnell getting $4.2 million ....Cullen at $2.8 is a walk in the park. For a player that is in the Top 5 in the league in assists with 21 in only 28 games it's hard to argue that he is making more than he should be.

Should he only manage to score 33 points in the final 54 games of the year he is still slated to set a career high in points with 60. The scary part about his production thus far is that he has done it without scoring a lot of goals. When he gets hot with his shooting touch he can be plain scary.

With that said, in the system that NYR plays and how they wanted Cullen to play he wasn't worth the money. He is a VERY good third line center. Perhaps the best in the game. His ability with the extra man rivals that of some of the better point men in the league which has been a fairly new discovery.

The Rangers actually made him a more complete player by giving him a load of time on the penalty kill with a really good team. It made him that much more valuable because he didn't do that his first time around with Carolina.

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12-04-2007, 01:21 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
Matt Cullen makes $2.8 million per season this year and the remainder of his contract. He has a cap hit of less than $3 million. When compared to other 3rd line centers that were on the market last season:

Todd White - $2.4 million for four years.
Eric Belanger - $1.7 million for three years.
Brett McLean - $1.75 million for three years.
Mike Comrie - $3.35 million for one year.
Viktor Kozlov - $2.5 million for two years.
I pretty much agree with every part of your post except for this part.

Comrie, as much as I hate him, is not a 3rd line center. Not even by a long shot.

He's a bona-fide 2nd line center in my book, and some people - mostly Islander fans - believe that he can be a true 1st line center.

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12-04-2007, 01:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
I pretty much agree with every part of your post except for this part.

Comrie, as much as I hate him, is not a 3rd line center. Not even by a long shot.

He's a bona-fide 2nd line center in my book, and some people - mostly Islander fans - believe that he can be a true 1st line center.
The thing about Comrie is that when he came up for free agency he had been playing third line with Ottawa much like Cullen had been playing third line in Carolina behind two really good centermen. He was in a virtually identical situation as Cullen when people started licking their chops at the possibility of projecting his point per minute average over 2nd line minutes.

I hate to play the "if you take away these games", game with players because that is unfair to their production but when you consider that Mike Comrie started the season with 6 points and a +3 in the first two games of the season you'll notice that he has been back to his true form for the remainder of the year. 4 goals and 14 points in 23 games with a -13 since his torrid start to the year.

Comrie was in a good situation for him in Phoenix and produced according to those standards. He flamed out with the Flyers and to an extent with Ottawa. He seems to be taking a downward trend with his production. I can tell you that for a hockey game tomorrow, I take at least Matt Cullen and Todd White ahead of Mike Comrie from the aforementioned names.

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12-04-2007, 02:36 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
Matt Cullen makes $2.8 million per season this year and the remainder of his contract. He has a cap hit of less than $3 million. When compared to other 3rd line centers that were on the market last season:

Todd White - $2.4 million for four years.
Eric Belanger - $1.7 million for three years.
Brett McLean - $1.75 million for three years.
Mike Comrie - $3.35 million for one year.
Viktor Kozlov - $2.5 million for two years.

These guys all signed last season for those numbers. Cullen has been head and shoulders better than all of them this season. To call him overpaid at all would be a mistake. I'm not trying to cast stones, but how does it make sense to compare production to contract values between Cullen, Drury, and Gomez and deduce that Cullen is severely overpaid....

27 points in 28 games is impressive for a 2nd line center. It is impressive for most first line centers. Matt Cullen may have been overpaid for the role he was slated for with NYR but he isn't overpaid for what he can bring in Carolina. Not by a long shot. I would venture that if he came up for a new contract at the end of this season he would get just as much and probably more in a new deal than he is making now. To me that is the ultimate judgement of how much a player is making and if they're worth it. When you have players like Hartnell getting $4.2 million ....Cullen at $2.8 is a walk in the park. For a player that is in the Top 5 in the league in assists with 21 in only 28 games it's hard to argue that he is making more than he should be.

Should he only manage to score 33 points in the final 54 games of the year he is still slated to set a career high in points with 60. The scary part about his production thus far is that he has done it without scoring a lot of goals. When he gets hot with his shooting touch he can be plain scary.

With that said, in the system that NYR plays and how they wanted Cullen to play he wasn't worth the money. He is a VERY good third line center. Perhaps the best in the game. His ability with the extra man rivals that of some of the better point men in the league which has been a fairly new discovery.

The Rangers actually made him a more complete player by giving him a load of time on the penalty kill with a really good team. It made him that much more valuable because he didn't do that his first time around with Carolina.
hes having a good year this year, his career numbers are very unimpressive.

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12-04-2007, 06:25 AM
  #40
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The Rangers couldn't afford to pay another center close to $3 million-$2.875 million to be exact.If you look at the Rangers cap situation,that $2.875 million is their cushion with the bonuses rolling over to next season's cap.It's this season and two more years.The Rangers have some good young centers such Brandon,Anisimov,Pyatt,etc.

Cullen is 40-50 point guy.Those are his career numbers.Not a playmaker.A shooter.A poor man's Brian Rolston

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12-04-2007, 06:33 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Cullen is 40-50 point guy.Those are his career numbers.
Hmmm, sounds like something I said when you guys signed him, then one of you had the audacity to treat me like some ignorant hockey fan. I would agree with that statement before this season, but it's evident his game has changed yet again.

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12-04-2007, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRONX_MADNESS View Post
He has more points than Drury or Gomez, and he would've been much cheaper. If I could go back in time I would've kept Cullen, and stayed away from Gomez. Plus he basically single-handedly beat the Rangers tonight. Thoughts?
The only regret is that the Rangers mis-used him while he was here.

Carolina's system makes great use of his talents and he thrives there, with those guys on that team.

A third line center that plays the point on the PP in a system more suited to his style will always ALWAYS make trading that player look like a mistake.

He didn't fit here and was moved because of it.

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12-04-2007, 08:07 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
Matt Cullen makes $2.8 million per season this year and the remainder of his contract. He has a cap hit of less than $3 million. When compared to other 3rd line centers that were on the market last season:

Todd White - $2.4 million for four years.
Eric Belanger - $1.7 million for three years.
Brett McLean - $1.75 million for three years.
Mike Comrie - $3.35 million for one year.
Viktor Kozlov - $2.5 million for two years.

These guys all signed last season for those numbers. Cullen has been head and shoulders better than all of them this season. To call him overpaid at all would be a mistake. I'm not trying to cast stones, but how does it make sense to compare production to contract values between Cullen, Drury, and Gomez and deduce that Cullen is severely overpaid....

27 points in 28 games is impressive for a 2nd line center. It is impressive for most first line centers. Matt Cullen may have been overpaid for the role he was slated for with NYR but he isn't overpaid for what he can bring in Carolina. Not by a long shot. I would venture that if he came up for a new contract at the end of this season he would get just as much and probably more in a new deal than he is making now. To me that is the ultimate judgement of how much a player is making and if they're worth it. When you have players like Hartnell getting $4.2 million ....Cullen at $2.8 is a walk in the park. For a player that is in the Top 5 in the league in assists with 21 in only 28 games it's hard to argue that he is making more than he should be.

Should he only manage to score 33 points in the final 54 games of the year he is still slated to set a career high in points with 60. The scary part about his production thus far is that he has done it without scoring a lot of goals. When he gets hot with his shooting touch he can be plain scary.

With that said, in the system that NYR plays and how they wanted Cullen to play he wasn't worth the money. He is a VERY good third line center. Perhaps the best in the game. His ability with the extra man rivals that of some of the better point men in the league which has been a fairly new discovery.

The Rangers actually made him a more complete player by giving him a load of time on the penalty kill with a really good team. It made him that much more valuable because he didn't do that his first time around with Carolina.
Yeah, he's the best 3rd line center in the game.

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12-04-2007, 10:53 AM
  #44
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Yeah, he's the best 3rd line center in the game.
Who else?

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12-04-2007, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
hes having a good year this year, his career numbers are very unimpressive.
Well, his career numbers are doing nothing for us this season. His numbers from this season are. I'm not trying to be trite, but while it may not bode well for his production over the long season he is producing right now at nearly a point per game rate and that can't be negated by the fact that he has never done it before. Sometimes you have to take the stats at face value.

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12-04-2007, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
Well, his career numbers are doing nothing for us this season. His numbers from this season are. I'm not trying to be trite, but while it may not bode well for his production over the long season he is producing right now at nearly a point per game rate and that can't be negated by the fact that he has never done it before. Sometimes you have to take the stats at face value.
so far it looks like Joe Barnes will be an ECHL player, that is crappy value for a solid 3rd liner. I guess Sather was drunk when he made that deal

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12-04-2007, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RCallahan43 View Post
so far it looks like Joe Barnes will be an ECHL player, that is crappy value for a solid 3rd liner. I guess Sather was drunk when he made that deal
Well every once in a while you'll find a GM make a move in good faith. Carolina did it with Toronto when they shipped Jeff O'Neill to Toronto for a 4th round pick which was well below market value at the time. When a player wants to go home, you want to be rid of the player ....sometimes you try to make those ends meet. It's the kind of thing that free agents look at when they're considering teams. If things go wrong, will the organization do everything in their power to make sure that they get me to a place where I can be effective? In this case they did.

The real winner in this was Matt Cullen himself. He went elsewhere and got the money that Carolina wasn't going to give him and then comes back after a season on broadway back to where he supposedly wanted to be to start with.

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12-04-2007, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
Well every once in a while you'll find a GM make a move in good faith. Carolina did it with Toronto when they shipped Jeff O'Neill to Toronto for a 4th round pick which was well below market value at the time. When a player wants to go home, you want to be rid of the player ....sometimes you try to make those ends meet. It's the kind of thing that free agents look at when they're considering teams. If things go wrong, will the organization do everything in their power to make sure that they get me to a place where I can be effective? In this case they did.

The real winner in this was Matt Cullen himself. He went elsewhere and got the money that Carolina wasn't going to give him and then comes back after a season on broadway back to where he supposedly wanted to be to start with.
Good faith? Cullen was a cap casuality and Carolina was there waiting with open arms. Sather would have taken a bag of pucks.

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12-04-2007, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brooklyndevil View Post
Good faith? Cullen was a cap casuality and Carolina was there waiting with open arms. Sather would have taken a bag of pucks.
I would bet you money there were better offers for Cullen on the table than the one that was taken in part because of how the situation played out. I'm sure NYR didn't forsee giving Cullen a 4 year deal, having him play hard every game his first season, and then being shipped out after his first season due to other options being available in the free agent market. Free agents pay attention to this kind of thing. People move their families to play for a new franchise and when they're given a long contract even moreso. They probably went to Cullen and told him in not so many words that his services weren't going to be needed, they felt terrible about it and decided that they would try to accomidate his wishes to be dealt to a select few teams. Carolina happened to have a need there and it worked out.

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12-04-2007, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Caniacforever View Post
I would bet you money there were better offers for Cullen on the table than the one that was taken in part because of how the situation played out. I'm sure NYR didn't forsee giving Cullen a 4 year deal, having him play hard every game his first season, and then being shipped out after his first season due to other options being available in the free agent market. Free agents pay attention to this kind of thing. People move their families to play for a new franchise and when they're given a long contract even moreso. They probably went to Cullen and told him in not so many words that his services weren't going to be needed, they felt terrible about it and decided that they would try to accomidate his wishes to be dealt to a select few teams. Carolina happened to have a need there and it worked out.
An optimist in human nature....Nice to know people like you still exist.

Unfortunately, I believe once Nylander didn't resign, Sather saw that as an opportunity to make a big splash and sign both Drury and Gomez, but he couldn't do that without clearing cap space, especially if he wanted to bring back Shanny and Avery. Carolina coming off a bad year, realized the team missed his play and wanted to bring him back. You give Sather to much credit.

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