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Old
12-06-2007, 11:05 AM
  #26
kimzey59
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Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
Kariya is only here two more years. Backes isn't a top six forward. Oshie can play center.

Boyes, Stempniak, Perron and Hossa would make a great set of wingers for the top two lines.
1) By the time Kariya's contract expires Lars Eller will also be in the mix; and I'm one of the few who see him more as a winger than a center(given the specific roles that AM puts on his players). We will also have 2 more drafts by that time so we will likely have another 1st round pick at forward to consider also. There also could be the emergence of another top 6 caliber forward from our current crop(Lemtyugov, Palushaj, Alexandrov, Barriball, etc.).

The General point being; for the next 2 years our scoring lines are more or less set on the wing and we have plenty of cheap, in house options for after Kariya leaves. Hossa is not needed.

2) Here is a sampling of the 09 FA class up front:
Henrik Zetterberg
Marian Gaborik

The Sedin's
Vinny Lecavalier
Andy McDonald
Brian Gionta
Erik Cole
Alex Tanguay
Mike Cammalleri

Is it really in our best interests to put big money into Hossa when it WILL keep us from going after one of these players?

3) In Todays NHL you need to have 3 lines that can score. Backes may not be a true "top 6" forward yet; but he is the main finisher on our #3 line.

4) Oshie has already been discussed ad nausium; he projects better on the wing than he does at center.

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12-06-2007, 11:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) By the time Kariya's contract expires Lars Eller will also be in the mix; and I'm one of the few who see him more as a winger than a center(given the specific roles that AM puts on his players). We will also have 2 more drafts by that time so we will likely have another 1st round pick at forward to consider also. There also could be the emergence of another top 6 caliber forward from our current crop(Lemtyugov, Palushaj, Alexandrov, Barriball, etc.).

The General point being; for the next 2 years our scoring lines are more or less set on the wing and we have plenty of cheap, in house options for after Kariya leaves. Hossa is not needed.

2) Here is a sampling of the 09 FA class up front:
Henrik Zetterberg
Marian Gaborik

The Sedin's
Vinny Lecavalier
Andy McDonald
Brian Gionta
Erik Cole
Alex Tanguay
Mike Cammalleri

Is it really in our best interests to put big money into Hossa when it WILL keep us from going after one of these players?

3) In Todays NHL you need to have 3 lines that can score. Backes may not be a true "top 6" forward yet; but he is the main finisher on our #3 line.

4) Oshie has already been discussed ad nausium; he projects better on the wing than he does at center.
Kimzey, do you know how long of a contract Hossa wants? Because I made my statement based on a 4-5 year deal...I'm not sure what Hossa is looking for...but if it is a 7 or 8 year deal...I agree, forget it.

But if Hossa will take a 4-5 year deal, well Oshie, Eller, Berglund are not even up here yet. By the time those kids hit UFA status, we will have Hossa off the books.

You need to keep in mind how many teams are going gu gu ga ga over Boyes right now...And I seriously think there is a good chance someone offers Boyes a crazy # close to 5 Million a year in the offseason. Something I don't want to touch, with Boyes only having one great year.

On top of all that, I think Zetterberg and Cole won't even make it to July 1st.

Don't forget that Detroit doesn't have Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan, Lang, etc. They have money and I highly doubt the historic Red Wings mess up re-signing the Wings best forward.

Vinny would be nice, but I see other teams throwing crazier length contracts at Vinny over Marian.

As for Hossa in Atlanta, yes Atlanta wants him, but does Hossa really want to stay in that situation for the next 4, 5, 6, or 7 years?

Hence, why Hossa is brought up.

And I understand everyone's point on having enough wingers "right now". But to me you take the best avaliable player in free agency (just like the draft), especially if we need a center and the guys a winger. It's not like we need a center and we sign a defensemen.

Haven't we learned that these players can and will switch from wing to center or center to wing? (Weight, Tkachuck to name a few)

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12-06-2007, 11:40 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) Rolston plays all 3 forward positions effectively and his style is a perfect match for an AM center.
He's still going to be 35 years old next year, no matter how effective he is, his skills are bound to deteriorate much sooner rather than later.

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2) Rolston now is better than Rucinsky has ever been.
He's better than Rucinsky now, but I'd say you're selling Rucinsky just a bit short. but at 35 years old, and a 3.5-4 million dollar contract probably, his age and declining skills will not be worth that contract.



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1) In your scenario the 3rd line has no center at all. Stempy, Perron and Backes are all wingers.
Uh...Backes played center all through college, I'm quite sure he can still play the position.

Quote:
2) I would much rather put Berglund with Stempy and Backes and let him earn his way up the ranks as opposed to handing him the #2 center spot.
If we hand Berglund the no. 2 center spot with Hossa and Oshie flanking him, and the guy can't be successful, then obviously Berglund is much overrated.

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3) I am very interested in seeing if Oshie and Perron have any chemistry together. If those two could click they'd have the potential to be one of the top offensive pairings in the entire league.
Can't say I disagree with that.

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4) I also do not want too many more long term contracts on the books. Handing out the kind of deals you're talking about WILL keep us from locking up our youngsters at some point down the road. Hossa is a fine player, but you'll have to do a lot of convincing to tell me that he is that much better than Boyes, Stempy, Oshie, Berglund, Backes and Perron to give a massive deal that will cost one of that quartet.
And that was the point I conceded. His contract will be prohibitive, but winning teams need star players who they count on in order to succeed. And these star players tend to be very well paid. Also, all the Blues players, save for Stempniak and Boyes, have done jack in the NHL. Neither Stempniak nor Boyes have hit 30 goals in theur young career, though they certainly have the potential. Marian Hossa is a bona fide star, 40+ goals, 45+ assists, he plays the PP, he plays the PK, he scores in the playoffs, he's the absolute definition of a complete player. Stempniak and Boyes can't do all of these things, nor can they do it as well as he does.

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5) Hossa is not a "catalyst", he is a finisher. He is a good finisher, but he does not have the playmaking skills to qualify as a "catalyst".
Wow, NOT a catalyst? Okay so Rick Nash is not an offensive catalyst, or Kovalchuk, or Iginla? Those guys are all primarily finishers, are you seriously going to say that they aren't offenssive catalysts? I'm gonna have to completely disagree with you on Hossa's status as an offensive catalyst.

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12-06-2007, 11:47 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) By the time Kariya's contract expires Lars Eller will also be in the mix; and I'm one of the few who see him more as a winger than a center(given the specific roles that AM puts on his players). We will also have 2 more drafts by that time so we will likely have another 1st round pick at forward to consider also. There also could be the emergence of another top 6 caliber forward from our current crop(Lemtyugov, Palushaj, Alexandrov, Barriball, etc.).

The General point being; for the next 2 years our scoring lines are more or less set on the wing and we have plenty of cheap, in house options for after Kariya leaves. Hossa is not needed.

2) Here is a sampling of the 09 FA class up front:
Henrik Zetterberg
Marian Gaborik

The Sedin's
Vinny Lecavalier
Andy McDonald
Brian Gionta
Erik Cole
Alex Tanguay
Mike Cammalleri

Is it really in our best interests to put big money into Hossa when it WILL keep us from going after one of these players?

3) In Todays NHL you need to have 3 lines that can score. Backes may not be a true "top 6" forward yet; but he is the main finisher on our #3 line.

4) Oshie has already been discussed ad nausium; he projects better on the wing than he does at center.
So why give Zetterberg or Gaborik 8-9 million per year but not Hossa? Gaborik is nowhere near as durable as Hossa, though they have similar skillsets. But you gotta be on the ice to use that skill. Zetterberg and Hossa are the same player, tremendous offensive catalysts that play in all situations, PP/PK/ES and can light up the scoresheet. Not to mention Zetterberg is only 1 year younger than Hossa, so the age issue is a wash.

So why is Zetterberg deserving of a huge contract but Hossa isn't?

And as already stated, Lecavalier's contract will be ridiculous, he'll probably earn upwards of 10 million a year.


Last edited by SneakerPimp82: 12-06-2007 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Vinny
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12-06-2007, 12:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
He's still going to be 35 years old next year, no matter how effective he is, his skills are bound to deteriorate much sooner rather than later.



He's better than Rucinsky now, but I'd say you're selling Rucinsky just a bit short. but at 35 years old, and a 3.5-4 million dollar contract probably, his age and declining skills will not be worth that contract.

Rucinsky is, and always has been, a 60 point player.
Rolston now is a legit 40 goal threat.

I'll stand by my comment, thanks.


Quote:
Uh...Backes played center all through college, I'm quite sure he can still play the position.
NO; Backes played half of his sophmore year at center and spent the rest of his entire time there on the wing.
I am not convinced in the slightest that he can play center at this level; and certainly not at the level that we need him to



Quote:
If we hand Berglund the no. 2 center spot with Hossa and Oshie flanking him, and the guy can't be successful, then obviously Berglund is much overrated.
You completely missed the point.
Look at how AM is handling Backes and Perron right now.

The knock on Berglund pre-draft was that he didn't always play with a full effort. IMO the best thing to do with Berglund is force him to give a full effort every single game. That means forcing him to earn every second of ice time that he gets. Handing him the #2 center spot is very much the opposite of that.




Quote:
And that was the point I conceded. His contract will be prohibitive, but winning teams need star players who they count on in order to succeed. And these star players tend to be very well paid. Also, all the Blues players, save for Stempniak and Boyes, have done jack in the NHL. Neither Stempniak nor Boyes have hit 30 goals in theur young career, though they certainly have the potential. Marian Hossa is a bona fide star, 40+ goals, 45+ assists, he plays the PP, he plays the PK, he scores in the playoffs, he's the absolute definition of a complete player. Stempniak and Boyes can't do all of these things, nor can they do it as well as he does.
1) Besides TB, What "Star Studded" team has won anything in recent memory?

Sorry; but you are wrong here.
The key to winning the Cup is to have depth and not be reliant on 1 or 2 players.
You must have 3 lines that can score(plus a shut down line that you have to account for), no holes on your defense and a hot goalie. That is the key to the Cup. Putting big money into 1 or 2 players runs directly counter to that.

2) Stempy and Boyes' first 2 years in the NHL are VERY similar to Hossa's first two years in the league.

3) I disagree with your assertation that Hossa scores in the PO's. Hossa only has 13 PO goals in 55 career PO games. That is a much lower GPG ratio than Tkachuk has in the post-season and people regularly refer to Tkachuk as a PO bust.


Quote:
Wow, NOT a catalyst? Okay so Rick Nash is not an offensive catalyst, or Kovalchuk, or Iginla? Those guys are all primarily finishers, are you seriously going to say that they aren't offenssive catalysts? I'm gonna have to completely disagree with you on Hossa's status as an offensive catalyst.
1) Both Hossa and Kovalchuk would be better if they had a center who could legitimately set them up. Right now they are playing off of each others rebounds and it is holding them back somewhat.


Nash(Vyborny) and Iginla(Tanguay/Conroy) struggle when they don't have somebody feeding them the puck. I don't consider somebody who is reliant on another player to be a "catalyst". Guys like Vinny, St. Louis, Thornton, Sid, AO and Sakic are legit Catalysts. Guys like Hossa, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Nash, Tkachuk, Guerin and Doan are NOT catalysts. They are the kind of players that take "catalysts" to the next level.

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12-06-2007, 12:41 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Kimzey, do you know how long of a contract Hossa wants? Because I made my statement based on a 4-5 year deal...I'm not sure what Hossa is looking for...but if it is a 7 or 8 year deal...I agree, forget it.

But if Hossa will take a 4-5 year deal, well Oshie, Eller, Berglund are not even up here yet. By the time those kids hit UFA status, we will have Hossa off the books.

You need to keep in mind how many teams are going gu gu ga ga over Boyes right now...And I seriously think there is a good chance someone offers Boyes a crazy # close to 5 Million a year in the offseason. Something I don't want to touch, with Boyes only having one great year.

On top of all that, I think Zetterberg and Cole won't even make it to July 1st.

Don't forget that Detroit doesn't have Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan, Lang, etc. They have money and I highly doubt the historic Red Wings mess up re-signing the Wings best forward.

Vinny would be nice, but I see other teams throwing crazier length contracts at Vinny over Marian.

As for Hossa in Atlanta, yes Atlanta wants him, but does Hossa really want to stay in that situation for the next 4, 5, 6, or 7 years?

Hence, why Hossa is brought up.

And I understand everyone's point on having enough wingers "right now". But to me you take the best avaliable player in free agency (just like the draft), especially if we need a center and the guys a winger. It's not like we need a center and we sign a defensemen.

Haven't we learned that these players can and will switch from wing to center or center to wing? (Weight, Tkachuck to name a few)
While they can switch from wing to center, they usually are significantly better at one over the other. And AMs MO is to take guys playing center and move them to wing. With Walt being 35/36, we could really use a guy to bridge the gap next year and we had better be sure that guy can play center for AM. This really is a best fit scenario rather than a best player scenario with AMs track record thus far. We are already seeing what happens in AMs system when we have a guy(Weight) who is not suited to his role. Weight looks much better as a LW. I don't think he's completely done, just misused in this system. This makes me lean towards the best fit.

The FA market shrinks quite a bit as key players are locked in to contracts before they even hit the market. That's how we ended up with Dougie again. We have the assets to trade, why not address it now rather than waiting for guys that may or may not be available.


Last edited by TK 421: 12-06-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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Old
12-06-2007, 01:04 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TK 421 View Post
We have the assets to trade, why not address it now rather than waiting for guys that may or may not be available.
Who do you want to trade for? And what would you propose to give up to get it?

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12-06-2007, 01:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Who do you want to trade for?
Just off the top of my head:
Olli Jokinen, Vinny L, Patrick Marleau, Shawn Horcoff, Daymond Langkow and Mats Sundin(assuming Toronto really shops him).

Quote:
And what would you propose to give up to get it?
The Max package I'd consider moving is Jackman, Lars Eller, Nikolai Lemtyugov, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick; and that package would probably get us most of that list(only Vinny could conceivably cost us more than that).

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12-06-2007, 01:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
Rucinsky is, and always has been, a 60 point player.
Rolston now is a legit 40 goal threat.

I'll stand by my comment, thanks.
Like I said, at 35 years old, he will fade much sooner rather than later. I'll stand by my comment as well.




Quote:
NO; Backes played half of his sophmore year at center and spent the rest of his entire time there on the wing.
I am not convinced in the slightest that he can play center at this level; and certainly not at the level that we need him to
After Weight goes next year, nobody else on the roster besides Tkachuk will have played for any appreciable time at center, except Backes and Oshie and Berglund if they make the team. Regardless, I feel he's responsible enough defensively and more than a capable playmaker to play center. Not to mention he's big and can carry the puck into the offensive zone, he has the skills to be a better center than Tkachuk has been for the Blues. But we'll see.



Quote:
You completely missed the point.
Look at how AM is handling Backes and Perron right now.

The knock on Berglund pre-draft was that he didn't always play with a full effort. IMO the best thing to do with Berglund is force him to give a full effort every single game. That means forcing him to earn every second of ice time that he gets. Handing him the #2 center spot is very much the opposite of that.
Yes, because there's a surplus of wingers on this team. Next season there will be a lack of skilled centers on this team, necessitating the use of Berglund on the 2nd line. Granted, JD and Co. will obviously have a backup plan in case Berglund doesn't impress, but I fully expect him to do well. Plus he'll be a very cheap option at center.

I never heard this "knock" that you're talking about. All I've heard is that last year, he gave 100% every game, and played in the WJC, but wore down as the season went on, which obviously impacted his numbers late last season. But I haven't heard of him taking nights off.



Quote:
1) Besides TB, What "Star Studded" team has won anything in recent memory?

Sorry; but you are wrong here.
The key to winning the Cup is to have depth and not be reliant on 1 or 2 players.
You must have 3 lines that can score(plus a shut down line that you have to account for), no holes on your defense and a hot goalie. That is the key to the Cup. Putting big money into 1 or 2 players runs directly counter to that.
I never said you need a star studded team to win, I said you need stars who can perform in the playoffs. Anaheim last year(Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer, all well paid). the 02-03 Devils(Elias, Gomez, Niedermayer, Brodeur), and of course the Wings and Avs the 2 seasons prior. In the past 7 years, really only one team, the Hurricanes, has won without a bonafide star. Even then you can argue that Eric Staal is a star, along with Erik Cole to a lesser degree.

Yes you need depth, but you need go-to guys as well. 1 or 2 veteran stars plus young, skilled and cheap depth wins you the Cup, NOT just depth. Of course a goalie who's money in the crunch helps out a fair bit as well.

Quote:
2) Stempy and Boyes' first 2 years in the NHL are VERY similar to Hossa's first two years in the league.
And neither of them are 40 goal threats RIGHT NOW, or for the next 5-6 years, Hossa is. Neither of them plays the PK, Hossa can. Neither of them are the offensive threat on the PP that Hossa is. Not to say that Stempniak and Boyes will never be as good as Hossa, but Hossa is a proven commodity, and a great one at that.

Quote:
3) I disagree with your assertation that Hossa scores in the PO's. Hossa only has 13 PO goals in 55 career PO games. That is a much lower GPG ratio than Tkachuk has in the post-season and people regularly refer to Tkachuk as a PO bust.
Discounting his early years in the NHL(first 3 years), from the 2002 playoffs till now, he's scored 31 points in 41 playoff games, 12 of his 13 playoff goals have been scored in that time frame. Yes it's a low GPG ratio, but APG ratio is very good. That shows that when defenses key in on him, he can get the puck to the open man, something Tkachuk can't do. Not to mention, he plays the PK as well, so Hossa's efforts go much further than his scoring.


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1) Both Hossa and Kovalchuk would be better if they had a center who could legitimately set them up. Right now they are playing off of each others rebounds and it is holding them back somewhat.
Right...Kovalchuk's league leading 23 goals is holding him back. Hossa after a slow start is back on pace for 35+ goals and will probably reach 40 when it's all over. Both guys can create their own offense, and obviously ANY skater would benefit from a good set-up center. Anyone who can score 40+ goals without a "legit setup center" can "catalyze" my team anytime they want.


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Nash(Vyborny) and Iginla(Tanguay/Conroy) struggle when they don't have somebody feeding them the puck. I don't consider somebody who is reliant on another player to be a "catalyst". Guys like Vinny, St. Louis, Thornton, Sid, AO and Sakic are legit Catalysts. Guys like Hossa, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Nash, Tkachuk, Guerin and Doan are NOT catalysts. They are the kind of players that take "catalysts" to the next level.
You're right to a degree, but it doesn't apply in Hossa's, Kovalchuk's or Nash's case. Those guys have been able to score with or without a good center.

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12-06-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
Just off the top of my head:
Olli Jokinen, Vinny L, Patrick Marleau, Shawn Horcoff, Daymond Langkow and Mats Sundin(assuming Toronto really shops him).



The Max package I'd consider moving is Jackman, Lars Eller, Nikolai Lemtyugov, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick; and that package would probably get us most of that list(only Vinny could conceivably cost us more than that).
I wouldn't mind this deal, except that package altogether would be too much for Horcoff, Langkow or Sundin, considering his age, IMO.

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12-06-2007, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Who do you want to trade for? And what would you propose to give up to get it?
Sorry TIJ, I don't have anyone specific in mind to pick up. I like Langkow but not sure CAL wants to move their top center. Stoll from EDM possibly but with Pitkanen back and Souray on the books they probably wouldn't want one of our D-men. I'm not suggesting a legit 1st line center, I'm thinking a 2nd line center with 1-2 years remaining on his contract. As for who, I'll let guys like you and kimzey who are more familiar with pro personnel speculate.

Outside of the obvious D-men surplus, we have a wealth of forward prospects that would be attractive to rebuilding teams(anyone not named Oshie). With the extra first rounders we've had over the last two drafts combined with the extra picks in this next draft(2 2nds,2 3rds) we have flexibility going forward. We have Jarmo so I wouldn't be averse to moving one of the extra 2nds or 3rds along with a D-man to get the center we need. If they don't want salary coming back then make it a package of prospects and picks. As I said, we have the assets of different types to be flexible when talking trade with the exception of roster forwards going out the door. Sorry I wasn't more specific but like I said, I'm not as familiar with pro personnel or current needs of other teams as I am with prospects.

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12-06-2007, 02:27 PM
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I understand your guys concern for a legit center.

And I love all those guys you mentioned Kimzey and TK 421.

But personally, I think it is insane to trade for a guy like that right now. Having to give up Jackman, Eller, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick just to get him here! Not my idea of rebuilding correctly.

I would be more than happy to take our chances in free agency and give out fat contracts...even if that means half these guys are re-signed before July 1st.

But look at our situation...we are "rebuilding". Why would we give up, possibly, 4 great players (Jackman, Eller and 1st and 2nd rounder) for a guy that we could possibly get in the off season.

Remember, Kariya signed here last summer after we did not make the playoffs. So it's not pulling teeth to get players to look at us...this isn't 2005 or 2006 any longer.

Imagine if we not only make the playoffs but happen to be one of the final 8 or 4 teams this spring!! With the money we have avaliable...On top of a great owner, good management and a good coach...If I was a player I would be waiting by the phone to hear the Blues offers.

With that said, I have already proposed Jackman for a 1st rounder, 4th rounder, Ryder and a prospect. Or any other combination of getting AT LEAST a 1st rounder + back for Barret I would be happy with.

I think trading Eller would be a HUUUUUUGGGGE mistake. And why in the world would you think trading him would be in the best interest of the Blues future? Just to get a guy who is better than Eller for the next few years?

Basically, if we make a trade like Kimzey suggested...we would lose 3 1st round picks (Eller, a future 1st rounder in the trade and the 1st rounder we would have gotten for Jackman). When we can sign a similar guy next year in free agency. And even if we lose out next summer on a great center...Oh well, we are rebuilding and we have that much more money going into the summer of 2009 when other teams have no near the cap space we will.

Patience is the game...stay on track. Play your strength (which in this case is Jarmo) so load up on picks and we will get to the top soon enough.

The trades I think we should be making in the next 3 months:
Trade Rucinsky for a 4th or 5th rounder.
Trade Jackman for a 1st rounder + _____
Trade Ryan Johnson for a 6th rounder
Trade Salvador for a 4th or 5th rounder.

We need to load up on more picks for Jarmo, even if they are higher round picks, so we have more of a chance to delvelop another Stempniak and Backes.


Last edited by TrustInJarmo*: 12-06-2007 at 02:41 PM.
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12-06-2007, 02:37 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
After Weight goes next year, nobody else on the roster besides Tkachuk will have played for any appreciable time at center, except Backes and Oshie and Berglund if they make the team. Regardless, I feel he's responsible enough defensively and more than a capable playmaker to play center. Not to mention he's big and can carry the puck into the offensive zone, he has the skills to be a better center than Tkachuk has been for the Blues. But we'll see.
McClement?
RJ, MJ, Hinote?
Birner and Drazenovic at Peoria?

IMO the best scenario for next year is to drop McClement to the 4th line, put Berglund on the 3rd line with Stempy and Backes and find a veteran center to go with Perron and Oshie on the 2nd line. IMO that gives us a very deep offense and negates the need for a Hossa.


Quote:
Yes, because there's a surplus of wingers on this team. Next season there will be a lack of skilled centers on this team, necessitating the use of Berglund on the 2nd line. Granted, JD and Co. will obviously have a backup plan in case Berglund doesn't impress, but I fully expect him to do well. Plus he'll be a very cheap option at center.
There will only be a "lack of skilled centers" if we do something dumb like sign a winger this summer and fail to address the problem at center. IF JD plays things smart we will sign a center this summer and have Tkachuk, the FA center, Berglund and McClement as our pivots next year. I MUCH perfer this scenario to signing Hossa.

Quote:
I never heard this "knock" that you're talking about. All I've heard is that last year, he gave 100% every game, and played in the WJC, but wore down as the season went on, which obviously impacted his numbers late last season. But I haven't heard of him taking nights off.
Let me rephrase somewhat.
The knocks on Berglund pre-draft was that he wasn't the best skater and didn't always get back on defense. You don't hand kids with those particular knocks against them ANYTHING.


Quote:
I never said you need a star studded team to win, I said you need stars who can perform in the playoffs. Anaheim last year(Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer, all well paid). the 02-03 Devils(Elias, Gomez, Niedermayer, Brodeur), and of course the Wings and Avs the 2 seasons prior. In the past 7 years, really only one team, the Hurricanes, has won without a bonafide star. Even then you can argue that Eric Staal is a star, along with Erik Cole to a lesser degree.

Yes you need depth, but you need go-to guys as well. 1 or 2 veteran stars plus young, skilled and cheap depth wins you the Cup, NOT just depth. Of course a goalie who's money in the crunch helps out a fair bit as well.
Those teams may have had a few big names on them; but it was the other players that carried them to the Cup.

The Devils have been the most "system focused" team in the league for the last 15 years. That team doesn't believe in "players"; other than Marty of course.
The Wings are another highly "system" based team; and their Cups came when they had 3 very dangerous lines and somebody to help Lidstrom shoulder the load.

Again; it is Depth that wins the Cup, not "Stars".



Quote:
And neither of them are 40 goal threats RIGHT NOW, or for the next 5-6 years, Hossa is. Neither of them plays the PK, Hossa can. Neither of them are the offensive threat on the PP that Hossa is. Not to say that Stempniak and Boyes will never be as good as Hossa, but Hossa is a proven commodity, and a great one at that.
1) Brad Boyes looks like he's going to notch 40+ goals this year.

2) Stempy may not hit 40 this year, but you're going to have to do a LOT of convincing to tell me that he won't reach that mark within 5 years.

3) Boyes and Stempy don't play on our PK because we have the deepest set of PK specialists in the League. IF we were to grab Hossa; he wouldn't be playing on the PK here either.



Quote:
Discounting his early years in the NHL(first 3 years), from the 2002 playoffs till now, he's scored 31 points in 41 playoff games, 12 of his 13 playoff goals have been scored in that time frame. Yes it's a low GPG ratio, but APG ratio is very good. That shows that when defenses key in on him, he can get the puck to the open man, something Tkachuk can't do. Not to mention, he plays the PK as well, so Hossa's efforts go much further than his scoring.
As you yourself has said; Hossa is a finisher.
His primary value is in his goalscoring; and he doesn't score in the PO's.



Quote:
Right...Kovalchuk's league leading 23 goals is holding him back. Hossa after a slow start is back on pace for 35+ goals and will probably reach 40 when it's all over. Both guys can create their own offense, and obviously ANY skater would benefit from a good set-up center. Anyone who can score 40+ goals without a "legit setup center" can "catalyze" my team anytime they want.
And both guys would be 60-70 goal players if they had anybody on their team who could adequately set plays up. Kovalchuk is the premier Finisher in the game today and Hossa is in the top 15. Give those 2 a legit playmaker and the only "limits" they have is the ones they put on themselves.

Again; right now Hossa and Kovalchuk are playing off of each others rebounds. That is not an ideal situation. Those 2 have a whole other level they could get to.



Quote:
You're right to a degree, but it doesn't apply in Hossa's, Kovalchuk's or Nash's case. Those guys have been able to score with or without a good center.
1) I've already addressed Hossa and Kovalchuk. They could be at an even higher level than they are now if they had a worthwhile playmaker on that team.

2) Nash is playing with David Vyborny; who is one of the better playmakers in the game. It's not about having a "playmaking center", it's just a matter of having a puck distributor to get the puck on their stick. Tanguay does that for Iginla, Vyborny does that for Nash and so on and so forth. Again; I do not consider finishers to be "catalysts". They need a playmaker to be effective and their play will suffer if they don't have one.

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12-06-2007, 02:56 PM
  #39
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1. Rucinsky is done. Yes, he used to be a 60-point guy in years past. Not now. Chances are he won't top 45 from here on out.

2. Jackman, Eller, Lemtyugov, a 1st, and a 2nd? Are you nuts, kimzey? Maybe for Lecavalier. No way in hell for a Sundin [who will be a playoff rental and nothing more - if you think people were laughing about us fleecing Atlanta in the Tkachuk deal, they'll be howling over this in a Sundin trade]. No way in hell for Horcoff or Langkow, not for Marleau [even if he has a 2-year extension, and especially considering he's 5-7-12 in 26 games this year, with 5 of those points coming in 2 games against Phoenix] and not for a Jokinen who has literally 21 playoff games under his belt in his pro career - none of those in the NHL, and only 5 of those in the last 7 years.

3. If Backes is playing at center, this team has problems.

4. If he hits the market again this summer, the guy I want is Mike Comrie. Could easily anchor a center spot on the 1st or 2nd line and knows how to score [30-goal scorer twice]; small at 5'10" and 185 lbs. but would clearly be an upgrade over what we've got - and wouldn't cost us nearly as much both in a new contract or via a trade. Currently 9-12-21 in 26 games - that's 3 1/2 times as many points as Doug Weight for a little less money, and a much better value per point [even adjusting for GP] than Rucinsky; won't be 28 until September, so he should have at least 3-4 good seasons left in him.


Don't get me wrong - I'd love to have Hossa here, but I wouldn't sell the farm to get him. Someone probably will [both in a trade and in a new contract], and that's fine - I don't want us to be that team.

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12-06-2007, 03:02 PM
  #40
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The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy says it all



I know we're all starting to get diamonds in our eyes but I still believe slow and steady is what is going to win this race.

If we can get a decent return for any of our disposable UFA's, trade them. If we can't lock Jackman down by the entry draft, trade him. Other than that, we shouldn't try and jump the gun. At all.

We went with retreads that paid off somewhat season before. We lured Kariya this year. This season I say we keep going as is unless deals come our way that make sense and those deals, I am talking about us being sellers still...not buyers.

If we make the playoffs, great
if we don't, great

We aren't going to compete for the cup this season without many many stars aligning and depending on how Legace tweaked his knee...we could be seeing Toivonen get that test we wanted for him anyways.

Hossa is a "part of a machine competing for a cup" not a catalyst who is going to improve this team on his own. Hossa doesn't make his linemates better but he excels when he is given great linemates. Ask the coaches who coached him previous and I believe they'll contend that when Hossa is asked to be the catalyst he goes for long periods of scorelessness.

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12-06-2007, 03:04 PM
  #41
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Spare parts in the offseason should be our focus and nothing more, nothing flashy. We aren't that team yet.

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12-06-2007, 03:09 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
I understand yours guys concern for a legit center.

And I love all those guys you mentioned Kimzey and TK 421.

But personally, I think it is insane to trade for a guy like that right now. Having to give up Jackman, Eller, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick just to get him here! Not my idea of rebuilding correctly.

I would be more than happy to take our chances in free agency and give out fat contracts...even if that means half these guys are re-signed before July 1st.

But look at our situation...we are "rebuilding". Why would we give up, possibly, 4 great players (Jackman, Eller and 1st and 2nd rounder) for a guy that we could possibly get in the off season.

Remember, Kariya signed here last summer after we did not make the playoffs. So it's not pulling teeth to get players to look at us...this isn't 2005 or 2006 any longer.

Imagine if we not only make the playoffs but happen to be one of the final 8 or 4 teams this spring!! With the money we have avaliable...On top of a great owner, good management and a good coach...If I was a player I would be waiting by the phone to hear the Blues offers.

With that said, I have already proposed Jackman for a 1st rounder, 4th rounder, Ryder and a prospect. Or any other combination of getting AT LEAST a 1st rounder + back for Barret I would be happy with.

I think trading Eller would be a HUUUUUUGGGGE mistake. And why in the world would you think trading him would be in the best interest of the Blues future? Just to get a guy who is better than Eller for the next few years?

Basically, if we make a trade like Kimzey suggested...we would lose 3 1st round picks (Eller, a future 1st rounder in the trade and the 1st rounder we would have gotten for Jackman). When we can sign a similar guy next year in free agency. And even if we lose out next summer on a great center...Oh well, we are rebuilding and we have that much more money going into the summer of 2009 when other teams have no near the cap space we will.

Patience is the game...stay on track. Play your strength (which in this case is Jarmo) so load up on picks and we will get to the top soon enough.

The trades I think we should be making in the next 3 months:
Trade Rucinsky for a 4th or 5th rounder.
Trade Jackman for a 1st rounder + _____
Trade Ryan Johnson for a 6th rounder
Trade Salvador for a 4th or 5th rounder.

We need to load up on more picks for Jarmo, even if they are higher round picks, so we have more of a chance to delvelop another Stempniak and Backes.
1) The package I mentioned is simply the "absolute most" I would give up for a player; and I would only use that package to get Vinny or Jokinen.

Ideally I would only move McKee and a 2nd to get us a center; but we probably won't get much with that package. Eller is the only "top prospect" I would consider trading, and only because of the depth we currently have on the wing(Kariya, Oshie, Perron, Boyes, Stempy, Backes, Palushaj, Lemtyugov, etc).

2) The goal of this team is to win the Cup. I understand that we don't want to put ourselves in another hole like we did with the Weight and Walt trades, but if we can trade from our surpluses (don't overlook this phrase) to get what we view as the "missing piece"(which IMO would mean a legit #2 center in the Walt mold) and make a legit run this year we'd be foolish not to do it.

Eller is a very good prospect; but we still would have Oshie, Berglund, Boyes, Stempy and Perron who would figure as high-end, long term options on our scoring lines. It would hurt; but we could afford to move him.

Jackman is an excellent D man; but with our surplus on D we could survive moving him. I would prefer to move McKee or Backman, but realistically those two wouldn't have as much trade value.

As you said; we have an extra 2nd round pick so we could afford to move one in the right deal.

Lemtyugov is turning out to be a nice prospect; but we have plenty of prospects in his general skill range(Palushaj, Birner, Hjalmarsson, Drazenovic, Kana, Barriball, Alexandrov) and with Jarmo at the helm he wouldn't be difficult to replace in this years draft. It might weaken our system a bit, but we can afford to move one of this caliber of prospect.

The 1st round pick is the only thing in that package that can't really be considered "surplus", but that is the price for a player of that caliber and we can afford to pay it given the young talent already on the team(you have to give to get).

Assuming we could resign them(and we have the funds to do so), a player like Jokinen or Vinny are still young enough to be the "face" of our core up front for the next decade. Marleau is a slight notch below them, but he would also be a core figure for years to come.

3) It is pure conjecture to suggest that we could get a 1st rounder plus for Jackman. I happen to share this opinion; but it is far from a given. This, IMO, would be an "egg in hand" scenario.

4) This team is building from within; but we aren't going to be in a "rebuild" forever. With the way the team is playing right now; I would be willing to take a risk to make a decent run this year.

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12-06-2007, 03:14 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
McClement?
RJ, MJ, Hinote?
Birner and Drazenovic at Peoria?
And do any of them have the skill to be a 2nd line center in the NHL? No, but Berglund does.

Quote:
IMO the best scenario for next year is to drop McClement to the 4th line, put Berglund on the 3rd line with Stempy and Backes and find a veteran center to go with Perron and Oshie on the 2nd line. IMO that gives us a very deep offense and negates the need for a Hossa.
And you don't think a veteran skilled 2nd line center will cost a lot of money? Like I said, I agree that JD will have a backup plan to Berglund, but Hossa would definitely be great on the Blues.


Quote:
There will only be a "lack of skilled centers" if we do something dumb like sign a winger this summer and fail to address the problem at center. IF JD plays things smart we will sign a center this summer and have Tkachuk, the FA center, Berglund and McClement as our pivots next year. I MUCH perfer this scenario to signing Hossa.
So now there's a problem at center, but I thought RJ, Hinote, Drazenovic, and Birner were ready to take the reigns? This team is struggling to score as it is right now, by adding Berglund and Oshie, we add 2 skilled rookies, but they're still rookies. The FA center may help offensively, but Hossa would undoubtedly give this team at least 2 scoring lines and probably 3. Which FA center would you target in this off-season?


Quote:
Those teams may have had a few big names on them; but it was the other players that carried them to the Cup.

The Devils have been the most "system focused" team in the league for the last 15 years. That team doesn't believe in "players"; other than Marty of course.
The Wings are another highly "system" based team; and their Cups came when they had 3 very dangerous lines and somebody to help Lidstrom shoulder the load.

Again; it is Depth that wins the Cup, not "Stars".
Right...Shanahan, Yzerman, Elias, Forsberg, Sakic, Brodeur, Roy, they had VERY little roles in their respective teams' success in the playoffs, it was mostly the role players. And yes, every team plays a system, whatever system suits the particular skills and talents of the skaters on the team. You can put in whatever system you want, but if your "players" don't have the talent or skill or coaching to execute it, the system is worthless. You have to maximize the particular talents of your players, and Hossa plays well on offense and defense and special teams.

Like I said, you need depth AS WELL AS stars. Stop putting words in my mouth.


Quote:
1) Brad Boyes looks like he's going to notch 40+ goals this year.
Looks like, as in he has never done it. Hossa looks like he will too, in addition to already having done it in previous years.

Quote:
2) Stempy may not hit 40 this year, but you're going to have to do a LOT of convincing to tell me that he won't reach that mark within 5 years.
It's not my job to convince you, I'm just stating the facts. Hossa is young, has already hit the 40 goal mark multiple times, and is a tremendous all-around threat.

Quote:
3) Boyes and Stempy don't play on our PK because we have the deepest set of PK specialists in the League. IF we were to grab Hossa; he wouldn't be playing on the PK here either.
Fantastic, then Hossa can keep scoring the 40+ goals he scores every year.



Quote:
As you yourself has said; Hossa is a finisher.
His primary value is in his goalscoring; and he doesn't score in the PO's.
He's a finisher yes, but YOU claim he's not a playmaker, my eyes and the stats say you're wrong. When he's not scoring goals, he can still dish the puck to the open man. He's a damn good playmaker as well.





Quote:
And both guys would be 60-70 goal players if they had anybody on their team who could adequately set plays up. Kovalchuk is the premier Finisher in the game today and Hossa is in the top 15. Give those 2 a legit playmaker and the only "limits" they have is the ones they put on themselves.
Wow man, wow. So a potential 60-70 goal scorer IS NOT an offensive catalyst in your eyes? Is that what you just said? I'm gonna go ahead and chuckle at that.

Quote:
Again; right now Hossa and Kovalchuk are playing off of each others rebounds. That is not an ideal situation. Those 2 have a whole other level they could get to.
So if we sign Hossa, and Berglund develops into the skilled centerman he projects to be, Hossa could score 60 goals in the next 3-4 years. Now the dumb move would be NOT signing him.




Quote:
1) I've already addressed Hossa and Kovalchuk. They could be at an even higher level than they are now if they had a worthwhile playmaker on that team.

2) Nash is playing with David Vyborny; who is one of the better playmakers in the game. It's not about having a "playmaking center", it's just a matter of having a puck distributor to get the puck on their stick. Tanguay does that for Iginla, Vyborny does that for Nash and so on and so forth. Again; I do not consider finishers to be "catalysts". They need a playmaker to be effective and their play will suffer if they don't have one.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said, anyone who can score 40+ goals WITHOUT a legit center "distributing pucks" is an offensive catalyst to me and can play on my team anytime. In fact, I think I'll make a poll and see how many people would consider a 40 goal scorer an offensive catalyst, even though the crappy center dishing him passes makes said 40 goal scorer just a "finisher."

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12-06-2007, 03:25 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy says it all



I know we're all starting to get diamonds in our eyes but I still believe slow and steady is what is going to win this race.

If we can get a decent return for any of our disposable UFA's, trade them. If we can't lock Jackman down by the entry draft, trade him. Other than that, we shouldn't try and jump the gun. At all.

We went with retreads that paid off somewhat season before. We lured Kariya this year. This season I say we keep going as is unless deals come our way that make sense and those deals, I am talking about us being sellers still...not buyers.

If we make the playoffs, great
if we don't, great

We aren't going to compete for the cup this season without many many stars aligning and depending on how Legace tweaked his knee...we could be seeing Toivonen get that test we wanted for him anyways.

Hossa is a "part of a machine competing for a cup" not a catalyst who is going to improve this team on his own. Hossa doesn't make his linemates better but he excels when he is given great linemates. Ask the coaches who coached him previous and I believe they'll contend that when Hossa is asked to be the catalyst he goes for long periods of scorelessness.
So the Hossa that led the Sens in scoring in the playoffs in 01-02(10 points in 12 GP) and 02-03(18 points in 18GP, lost in game 7 of the ECF) while being the no. 1 offensive threat on those teams, he isn't a catalyst?

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

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12-06-2007, 03:31 PM
  #45
TK 421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
I understand your guys concern for a legit center.

And I love all those guys you mentioned Kimzey and TK 421.

But personally, I think it is insane to trade for a guy like that right now. Having to give up Jackman, Eller, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick just to get him here! Not my idea of rebuilding correctly.

I would be more than happy to take our chances in free agency and give out fat contracts...even if that means half these guys are re-signed before July 1st.

But look at our situation...we are "rebuilding". Why would we give up, possibly, 4 great players (Jackman, Eller and 1st and 2nd rounder) for a guy that we could possibly get in the off season.

Remember, Kariya signed here last summer after we did not make the playoffs. So it's not pulling teeth to get players to look at us...this isn't 2005 or 2006 any longer.

Imagine if we not only make the playoffs but happen to be one of the final 8 or 4 teams this spring!! With the money we have avaliable...On top of a great owner, good management and a good coach...If I was a player I would be waiting by the phone to hear the Blues offers.

With that said, I have already proposed Jackman for a 1st rounder, 4th rounder, Ryder and a prospect. Or any other combination of getting AT LEAST a 1st rounder + back for Barret I would be happy with.

I think trading Eller would be a HUUUUUUGGGGE mistake. And why in the world would you think trading him would be in the best interest of the Blues future? Just to get a guy who is better than Eller for the next few years?

Basically, if we make a trade like Kimzey suggested...we would lose 3 1st round picks (Eller, a future 1st rounder in the trade and the 1st rounder we would have gotten for Jackman). When we can sign a similar guy next year in free agency. And even if we lose out next summer on a great center...Oh well, we are rebuilding and we have that much more money going into the summer of 2009 when other teams have no near the cap space we will.

Patience is the game...stay on track. Play your strength (which in this case is Jarmo) so load up on picks and we will get to the top soon enough.

The trades I think we should be making in the next 3 months:
Trade Rucinsky for a 4th or 5th rounder.
Trade Jackman for a 1st rounder + _____
Trade Ryan Johnson for a 6th rounder
Trade Salvador for a 4th or 5th rounder.

We need to load up on more picks for Jarmo, even if they are higher round picks, so we have more of a chance to delvelop another Stempniak and Backes.
I hadn't even considered us being an attractive FA destination but you're right, with the org. we have, there would be plenty of FAs interested. I'm just worried that either the money wouldn't be right or that center wouldn't be there come July 1st. More the latter than the former. It would be a real shame if this team found themselves in the same position next year as they did this year in free agency, especially considering the flexibility of assets we have that other teams don't. I don't want to be going through Weight part 2 next season. I do trust J.D. and company to get this fixed and like you, I have tremendous faith in Jarmo. LETS GO BLUES!

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12-06-2007, 03:55 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
And do any of them have the skill to be a 2nd line center in the NHL? No, but Berglund does.
And when he's ready to take that role he can have it. Until then; put him on the 3rd line and let him earn his way up.


Quote:
And you don't think a veteran skilled 2nd line center will cost a lot of money? Like I said, I agree that JD will have a backup plan to Berglund, but Hossa would definitely be great on the Blues.
Hossa is a good player; but he is NOT A FIT FOR THIS TEAMS NEEDS.
What part of this statement are you not getting?
The Blues will have Kariya, Boyes, Perron, Oshie, Stempy and Backes as our wingers next year. Tkachuk and McClement are the only centers we have at the NHL level that are assured to be back next year. We do not have the funds to add Hossa AND a center; so where do you allocate the assets?



Quote:
So now there's a problem at center, but I thought RJ, Hinote, Drazenovic, and Birner were ready to take the reigns?
That was a counter to your assertation that we had nobody who had played any "appreiciable time" at center.
I do not want to "hand the reigns" over to that group. We can do better.

Quote:
This team is struggling to score as it is right now, by adding Berglund and Oshie, we add 2 skilled rookies, but they're still rookies.
1) The reason this team isn't scoring now is because we have players being forced into roles they aren't suited to(Weight) and Stempy was in a funk. It isn't because of a lack of skill.

2) Oshie could step in right now and produce 20+ goals. He is NHL ready and is a VERY complete player.



Quote:
The FA center may help offensively, but Hossa would undoubtedly give this team at least 2 scoring lines and probably 3. Which FA center would you target in this off-season?
1) All Hossa does is further crowd and already stocked wing position. He does not fix our problem at center, and ergo will not fix our problems offensively.

2) We already discussed this.
Langkow, Sundin, Legwand, Rolston and Fedorov are my short list for now(with Legwand, Rolston and Langkow topping the list).


Quote:
Right...Shanahan, Yzerman, Elias, Forsberg, Sakic, Brodeur, Roy, they had VERY little roles in their respective teams' success in the playoffs, it was mostly the role players. And yes, every team plays a system, whatever system suits the particular skills and talents of the skaters on the team. You can put in whatever system you want, but if your "players" don't have the talent or skill or coaching to execute it, the system is worthless. You have to maximize the particular talents of your players, and Hossa plays well on offense and defense and special teams.

I never said it was the "role players" that won cups.
I said you needed to have depth.

In Detroit they had 2 exceptional Defensive pairings and 3 lines that could score at any given moment.

In NJ, none of the lines could be keyed in on and that made them extremely difficult to game plan against.

In Colorado; again they had 2 exceptional D pairings(Blake, Bourque, Foote) and 3 lines that could score.

Anahiem had 2 dominant D pairings and a balanced attack.

Carolina and a perfectly balanced Defense and 3 extremely good scoring lines.


As I said; the Cup winners in recent memory won with their depth; not by "star power".




[quote]Looks like, as in he has never done it. Hossa looks like he will too, in addition to already having done it in previous years.

Hossa is 4 years older than Boyes.
You're comparing a player who is very much in his prime to 2 kids that will not even make half of what Hossa will combined.

Quote:
Hossa is young, has already hit the 40 goal mark multiple times, and is a tremendous all-around threat.
Hossa is 28 and has spent 7 years in the league. Comparing Hossa now to Boyes and Stempy now is comparing apples and oranges and anybody with any sense knows that.



Quote:
He's a finisher yes, but YOU claim he's not a playmaker, my eyes and the stats say you're wrong. When he's not scoring goals, he can still dish the puck to the open man. He's a damn good playmaker as well.
Hossa's assists come from rebounds and deflected shots; just like most finishers get their assists.

Hossa is a mediocre playmaker at best. He is at his best when he has a playmaker next to him(like he did in Ottawa).





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Wow man, wow. So a potential 60-70 goal scorer IS NOT an offensive catalyst in your eyes? Is that what you just said? I'm gonna go ahead and chuckle at that.
An catalyst is a person who SPARKS the offense; meaning "is the creative force that brings offense into being". NO, Finishers are NOT offensive catalysts.

Hossa and Kovalchuk are in the same boat that Hull was. If you take away their "puck mover"(in Hull's case Oates) their games will struggle. Hossa and Kovalchuk are a VERY rare combination of finishers that can play off of one another. Their situation is NOT an ideal one and could VERY easily be upgraded on with even a moderately good playmaking center(even a guy like Nylander would have been tremendous as their pivot)

.
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So if we sign Hossa, and Berglund develops into the skilled centerman he projects to be, Hossa could score 60 goals in the next 3-4 years. Now the dumb move would be NOT signing him.
1) Berglund does not project to be a "skilled" center. He projects to be a "Power" center in the Sundin/Jokinen/Vinny mold; meaning a center that will regularly score 35+ goals. He is probably not going to be a 50-60 assist player like a Thornton or Weight. Berglund will very likely need a "skilled" winger to be truely effective(fortunately for us we have Stempy, Oshie and Perron to fill that role for him).

2) Again; we already have planty of wingers to match Berglund with, and all of them will cost far less than what Hossa will get this summer.

Hossa is not needed and will only keep us from addressing the issues we really need to address(meaning center).


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Like I said, anyone who can score 40+ goals WITHOUT a legit center "distributing pucks" is an offensive catalyst to me and can play on my team anytime. In fact, I think I'll make a poll and see how many people would consider a 40 goal scorer an offensive catalyst, even though the crappy center dishing him passes makes said 40 goal scorer just a "finisher."
I suggest you start taking some reading comprehnsion classes because you haven't grasped a single thing I've said yet.

Guys like Hossa, Kovalchuk, Guerin, Tkachuk, Iginla, Doan, etc are not "offensive threats" in and of themselves. They need another player that they click with to truely be effective. Hossa and Kovalchuk's effectiveness together is FAR from normal and not something you can bank on repeating on any other team. The ideal situation is to have a playmaker with a finisher. In that relationship; the playmaker is the catalyst, not the finisher.

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12-06-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
So the Hossa that led the Sens in scoring in the playoffs in 01-02(10 points in 12 GP) and 02-03(18 points in 18GP, lost in game 7 of the ECF) while being the no. 1 offensive threat on those teams, he isn't a catalyst?

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
yes, and he was playing with incredible linemates in your limited career sampling. Whenever he doesn't play with superstar linemates, he slumps.

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12-06-2007, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82 View Post
So the Hossa that led the Sens in scoring in the playoffs in 01-02(10 points in 12 GP) and 02-03(18 points in 18GP, lost in game 7 of the ECF) while being the no. 1 offensive threat on those teams, he isn't a catalyst?

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Daniel Alfredsson lead the Sen's in PO scoring in 01-02(13 points in 12 games), and Hossa was tied with Bonk with 10.
Alfredsson was Hossa's primary set-up man during his time in Ottawa and was the primary reason that Hossa notched as many goals as he did. Hossa's play has always been reflective of who he's played with; and that won't change.

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12-06-2007, 04:45 PM
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To kimzey, your definition of an offensive catalyst and mine are different then. You look at it as not the guy that scores the goals, but whoever leads the rush up the ice/starts the counter-attack that leads to the goal. I see a catalyst as a guy who can score or who can pass. Either way they're contributing without necessarily being the guy who "sparked" the counter attack or rush up ice that leads to the goal. You still need a guy to score the goal, regardless of who initiates the goal scoring chance.

Regarding Hossa/Playoffs, it usually takes a good team and good linemates to succeed and win. You said it yourself, depth wins cups, and when you're surrounded by guys like Alfredsson, Havlat, Neil, Schaeffer, and Varada, you'll be successful. Would you deny Alfredsson his playoff success in recent years simply because he played with skaters like Heatley, Spezza and Hossa? I mean those guys are all star players on a team with good offensive depth. You're essentially making the argument for me: with good offensive depth you'll be successful, with weak depth you won't, no matter how much of a "catalyst" you are.

However, you cannot argue this, no matter who Hossa has played with, he's always been successful offensively. Whether it's Alfredsson in Ottawa or Kovalchuk in Atlanta. Hell, Kovalvhuk, the premier finisher in the league, has 23 goals while playing with Hossa so far this season. I'd say Hossa is the catalyst in Kovalchuk's game, regardless of how that catalysis manifests itself.

But yea, i'm sure we could go round and round with this all day and night.

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12-06-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
yes, and he was playing with incredible linemates in your limited career sampling. Whenever he doesn't play with superstar linemates, he slumps.
Which of the past 7 NHL seasons exactly has Hossa struggled or slumped in the regular season or playoffs, in which the entire team did not struggle as well?

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