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Marian Hossa UFA

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Old
12-06-2007, 04:53 PM
  #51
kimzey59
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[QUOTE=SneakerPimp82;11507458]To kimzey, your definition of an offensive catalyst and mine are different then. You look at it as not the guy that scores the goals, but whoever leads the rush up the ice/starts the counter-attack that leads to the goal. I see a catalyst as a guy who can score or who can pass.[quote]

IF that is your definition then we see it the same. The difference is that I don't see Hossa as a player who is overly good at distributing the puck. His primary atribute is his ability to finish. While there is a TON of value for a player like that, IMO it does not make him an "offensvie catalyst".

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Regarding Hossa/Playoffs, it usually takes a good team and good linemates to succeed and win. You said it yourself, depth wins cups, and when you're surrounded by guys like Alfredsson, Havlat, Neil, Schaeffer, and Varada, you'll be successful. Would you deny Alfredsson his playoff success in recent years simply because he played with skaters like Heatley, Spezza and Hossa? I mean those guys are all star players on a team with good offensive depth. You're essentially making the argument for me: with good offensive depth you'll be successful, with weak depth you won't, no matter how much of a "catalyst" you are.
The difference between our arguements is that I am putting this team into perspective considering our system. As this team stands right now we already have the wingers to form a very potent offense. The problem is that we don't have the proper centers to fully integrate AM's system onto the ice. Signing Hossa won't change that, and that is why I oppose signing him. Signing Hossa IMO is not going to take this team to another level. The only way that this team will reach that next level is to get another center who plays a similar game to Tkachuk. We need that kind of 1-2 punch to truely roll a 2 or 3 line attack given the restraints AM uses in his system.

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12-06-2007, 10:02 PM
  #52
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Great Discussion

I'm not remotely qualified to contribute to this discussion...I just want to give kudos to all of you that have contributed your perspectives. A random link somewhere else brought me here for the first time...it's threads like these that keep me coming back...it's incredible how much one can learn.

I bow to your hockey knowledge.

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12-06-2007, 10:56 PM
  #53
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as much as i would love to have hossa, i would prefer we sign someone to hold the 2nd line center position 2-3 years. Maybe sign someone for around 2-3 years and then you would have Oshie and Berglund most likely matured and eller would be knockin on the door. The names that intrigue me are someone like Morrision, Prospal, Legwand, and Langkow. However my favortite targets would be Naslund, Sundin, or Huselius because they are from sweeden and I believe if Berglund plays with a Swedish legend such as Sundin or Naslund or even just another swede in Huselius it will make him much more comfortable and make him a better player.

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12-07-2007, 12:10 AM
  #54
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I was very surprised when the Blues signed Paul Kariya in free agency and I would be floored and astounded if the Blues signed another high dollar free agent. I think the Blues are at a point in their development where they need to plug rookies in and swap veterans out, not sign free agents and logjam prospects. That being said, I'd look for the Blues to see what they have in Oshie. Keep in mind, any money the Blues give Hossa, means the less likelier Boyes gets re-signed, Backes gets re-signed, Jackman gets re-signed.

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12-07-2007, 12:12 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman7191 View Post
as much as i would love to have hossa, i would prefer we sign someone to hold the 2nd line center position 2-3 years. Maybe sign someone for around 2-3 years and then you would have Oshie and Berglund most likely matured and eller would be knockin on the door. The names that intrigue me are someone like Morrision, Prospal, Legwand, and Langkow. However my favortite targets would be Naslund, Sundin, or Huselius because they are from sweeden and I believe if Berglund plays with a Swedish legend such as Sundin or Naslund or even just another swede in Huselius it will make him much more comfortable and make him a better player.
I don't think I'd want Huselius in a Blues' uniform. Hew's a real lightweight. He plays little defence, and shies away from contact. We saw a desciple of his style of play in Kahnberg. I wouldn't mind Sundin or Naslund, but don't see them coming to St. Louis. I could see one of those in your first sentence being added.

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12-07-2007, 07:49 AM
  #56
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I am not a Hossa fan so I don't have exact instances of biography commited to memory nor the time or inclination to research it. I do recall times when Hossa's been discussed in a slump and it is because he isn't playing with Kovalchuk or Alfredsson but the coach is trying to spread out the scoring by seperating Hossa from other superstars and the experiment fails.

That is the opposite of being a catalyst. A catalyst is a substance, introduced into a solution to create or speed up a chemical reaction. It "sparks" the reaction. Hossa doesn't spark any solution he is in, he requires that spark to be added to him.

back on topic because I don't have the data to back any further arguements, I don't believe we will end up going after Hossa and I'll be glad for that. As I've said, adding Hossa is adding a missing piece to an almost finished puzzle, not a puzzle piece you try to build around.

He's like a chunk of blue with a corner of white on a jigsaw puzzle of the sky. He's not even an edge piece.

Jigsaw puzzle humour...anyone? anyone?

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12-07-2007, 08:16 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mike6749 View Post
Keep in mind, any money the Blues give Hossa, means the less likelier Boyes gets re-signed, Backes gets re-signed, Jackman gets re-signed.
That isn't necessary a bad thing to lose Boyes. He has only had less than HALF of a great season. He is a soon to be a RFA..which is perfect timing for this great scoring outburst next to Kariya and Tkachuck.

I would have no problem losing Boyes...I actually HOPE someone gives Boyes $4,687,527 a year OR more...because look what we automatically get back...

Two 1st round picks, one 2nd round pick and one 3rd round pick

I love Jackman! But I want him traded...he is NOT the same player he was pre lockout and even though he looked good for a short time under Murray last season...he will never be the Jackman of 2002-2003. Due to the rule changes on defensemen.

Trade him while his stock is high.

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12-07-2007, 09:26 AM
  #58
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The threshold will move up this offseason ... probably by about 10% - so it would take an offer of over $5 million to get that return. [It also means that just having to give a 2nd round pick might cost up to $2.4 million or so.]

If we're going to move Jackman, fine - as long as we have a Plan A and a Plan B ready to replace him ... but at the rate we're going, we'll be solidly in the playoff hunt - which means we're not trading him.

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12-07-2007, 09:39 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
The threshold will move up this offseason ... probably by about 10% - so it would take an offer of over $5 million to get that return. [It also means that just having to give a 2nd round pick might cost up to $2.4 million or so.]

If we're going to move Jackman, fine - as long as we have a Plan A and a Plan B ready to replace him ... but at the rate we're going, we'll be solidly in the playoff hunt - which means we're not trading him.
Good to know about the 5 million plus...I still can see Kevin Lowe offering that.

I think we laid our own bed on Jackman, with signing Brewer to a 4 Million+ a year contract with no trade clause when we knew we had Jackman to deal with over the summer. On top of Mckee's 4 million multi year contract that also has a no trade clause.

If we re-sign Jackman to a contract around 4 million+ (which he probably will get).

That means we have 3 guys not earning there big money on D (at least in my opinion). Jackman, McKee, Brewer for years to come.

Than you have EJ and Wagner who I think all agree will not be going anywhere.

So between Backman (which I am fine with trading), Polak, Woywitka along with Cole, Farichild or any other defensmen we have...for the next few years there will ONLY be one spot on Defense. Is everyone ok with that defense?

Not to mention how much Murray likes Salvador as well. And as cheap as Salvador is...JD and Murray could bring him back. So if we re-sign Jax along with possibly Bryce and even if we trade Backman...that means Woywitka and Polak continue to get stuck in Peoria FOR YEARS.


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12-07-2007, 10:28 AM
  #60
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As much as everyone wants to talk about Lowe throwing out offer sheets like confetti at a NYC ticker-tape parade, he threw out two (2) offer sheets in one year. One was rejected, the other was accepted. It's like pointing to Clarke after he threw one at Kesler and saying, "... and when ____ is still available, we all know Clarke will throw him an offer sheet." Yes, the Oilers have all of their picks for 2009 and beyond right now - but that doesn't automatically mean Lowe is going to burn them going after [insert name of restricted free agent here]. They also had a lot of cap space this past summer; going into this summer, they're sitting around $37.9 million with Pitkanen, Stoll, Grebeshkov, Gilbert, and Thoresen as arbitration-eligible RFA's; they're not going to be in the position to throw around big offer sheets again.

No, if I had to put a bet on who I thought would lob the next offer sheet, it would be Columbus; they have a load of cap space available, Leclaire is the only notable RFA [and even if he gets $4 million in arbitration the Jackets still have a load of cap space left], the guys they'd probably bring back wouldn't cost that much to do, and they can easily fill in some spots from within [Brassard, probably Voracek]. With $37,770,000 tied up in 11 players for next year and Langkow going UFA, if Calgary doesn't get Phaneuf locked up by July 1, the Blue Jackets could ink Phaneuf to a massive offer sheet [because he would be a perfect fit on their blueline and could be their anchor for years to come] and make the Flames really sweat out trying to fill out a roster for the next 2 years if they match.

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12-07-2007, 02:45 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
I am not a Hossa fan so I don't have exact instances of biography commited to memory nor the time or inclination to research it. I do recall times when Hossa's been discussed in a slump and it is because he isn't playing with Kovalchuk or Alfredsson but the coach is trying to spread out the scoring by seperating Hossa from other superstars and the experiment fails.

That is the opposite of being a catalyst. A catalyst is a substance, introduced into a solution to create or speed up a chemical reaction. It "sparks" the reaction. Hossa doesn't spark any solution he is in, he requires that spark to be added to him.

back on topic because I don't have the data to back any further arguements, I don't believe we will end up going after Hossa and I'll be glad for that. As I've said, adding Hossa is adding a missing piece to an almost finished puzzle, not a puzzle piece you try to build around.

He's like a chunk of blue with a corner of white on a jigsaw puzzle of the sky. He's not even an edge piece.

Jigsaw puzzle humour...anyone? anyone?
All I'm saying is this, Kovalchuk has had his struggles as well when not playing with Hossa, and i'm pretty sure Alfredsson's numbers would go down were he not skating on a line with Spezza and Heatley...you have to admit those two are tremendous linemates to have.

And besides, even with Hossa's so-called struggles when separated from superstar linemates, he's still put up at least 31 goals in each of the last 6 seasons, with totals of 36, 39, 43, and 45 in four of those seasons. But we'll agree to disagree I suppose.

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12-07-2007, 02:50 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
As much as everyone wants to talk about Lowe throwing out offer sheets like confetti at a NYC ticker-tape parade, he threw out two (2) offer sheets in one year. One was rejected, the other was accepted. It's like pointing to Clarke after he threw one at Kesler and saying, "... and when ____ is still available, we all know Clarke will throw him an offer sheet." Yes, the Oilers have all of their picks for 2009 and beyond right now - but that doesn't automatically mean Lowe is going to burn them going after [insert name of restricted free agent here]. They also had a lot of cap space this past summer; going into this summer, they're sitting around $37.9 million with Pitkanen, Stoll, Grebeshkov, Gilbert, and Thoresen as arbitration-eligible RFA's; they're not going to be in the position to throw around big offer sheets again.

No, if I had to put a bet on who I thought would lob the next offer sheet, it would be Columbus; they have a load of cap space available, Leclaire is the only notable RFA [and even if he gets $4 million in arbitration the Jackets still have a load of cap space left], the guys they'd probably bring back wouldn't cost that much to do, and they can easily fill in some spots from within [Brassard, probably Voracek]. With $37,770,000 tied up in 11 players for next year and Langkow going UFA, if Calgary doesn't get Phaneuf locked up by July 1, the Blue Jackets could ink Phaneuf to a massive offer sheet [because he would be a perfect fit on their blueline and could be their anchor for years to come] and make the Flames really sweat out trying to fill out a roster for the next 2 years if they match.
Imagine the battles that Phaneuf and EJ would have over the years if this were to happen.

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12-07-2007, 04:26 PM
  #63
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Imagine the battles that Phaneuf and EJ would have over the years if this were to happen.
Phaneuf vs. Oshie, BRING IT ON!

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12-07-2007, 04:50 PM
  #64
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Phaneuf vs. Oshie, BRING IT ON!
actually don't please. There are way more instances where a forward is playing with his head down than a defenceman and Phaneuf hits hard!

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12-07-2007, 05:04 PM
  #65
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actually don't please. There are way more instances where a forward is playing with his head down than a defenceman and Phaneuf hits hard!
Apparently you aren't familiar with Oshies innate sense of timing for physical play. Guys think they have him lined up only to end up on their ***. But yeah, Phaneuf typically gets the better of most and the advantage would be his.

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12-08-2007, 02:18 AM
  #66
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Apparently you aren't familiar with Oshies innate sense of timing for physical play. Guys think they have him lined up only to end up on their ***. But yeah, Phaneuf typically gets the better of most and the advantage would be his.
Yeah definatly wouldn't want to see that cause I think we all can agree a majority of the time Phaneuf come's out on the better side of it.

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12-08-2007, 08:26 AM
  #67
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IMO the best scenario for next year is to drop McClement to the 4th line, put Berglund on the 3rd line with Stempy and Backes and find a veteran center to go with Perron and Oshie on the 2nd line. IMO that gives us a very deep offense and negates the need for a Hossa.
I agree with this. I'm with you Kimzey. How we get this done is probably where we differ. I don't agree with the max package that you are willing to part with. I would like to see a package consisting of Backman/Brewer/Jackman, a checking forward to offset salary, and Backes for a legit 1-2 center. You are going to have to trade something to get something. I think this package would land you a top center. This would also free up some roster space for getting some of our prospects a look throughout this year. (Wagner, Woywitka, Polak, and DuPont) and (Perron, Lemtyugov, Birner, Drazenovic, Linglet)

As much as I would hate to see Backes go, He has some NHL experience and would be more attractive than an unsigned European who is 18. (At least to me he would be) We have an excess of wingers, and I believe he has good value. Whoever we trade for better be signed or sign prior to the deal (2-3 years) for me to do it. I would consider adding to our package depending on who the player is.

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12-08-2007, 11:57 AM
  #68
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Back to Hossa -

Without Weight, Rucinsky and Cajanek, next year's payroll will be $8.5 million lower.

I'd offer Hossa 4 years, $8.5 million per. If that's not good enough, then we move on.

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12-08-2007, 02:07 PM
  #69
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Considering the apparent shortage of top-end UFA material available in June, as well as the yearly heat-related loss of judgment, Hossa would be wooed from left and right and center, with offers too large for a small mind to grasp. While the Blues will be relieved of some big salaries, they still need players to replace them, so throwing out 7-8 million to one, however dangerous and effective, scorer might not prove too wise. Many of us hope Oshie, Berglund and Co. will effectively take over those free spots, but it might be good to seek one or two guys in the 1.5-3 million range who'd help the offense behind Kariya, Tkachuk and Boyes.

Just a couple cents spinning in cyberspace.

Great point Southpaw. We have our stars right here in the system and they will need to get a lot of the money that we'll have in the future. Berglund is a 1.275M cap hit for the next 3 seasons if he meets incentives. After that he would logically require a huge raise (assuming he does as well as we expect). Same goes for Oshie. Not sure what his cap # will be, but it won't be that huge for the next few seasons and then logically he would require a large raise assuming he's done well.

Eller is a few seasons away, imo. So I am not worried about his cap hit at all. Yet.

So the Blues have about a 3 season window during which we could theoretically sign a Hossa. Jokinen type player for the huge money that they'd require and then by the end of their contracts we'd trade them or simply let them go as Berglund and Oshie will take up a lot of that excess money.

This is my mad, mad scheme. This is a big-time, crossing-my-fingers, idea that would be great in a perfect world. Well maybe not so perfect.

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12-08-2007, 03:17 PM
  #70
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Great point Southpaw. We have our stars right here in the system and they will need to get a lot of the money that we'll have in the future. Berglund is a 1.275M cap hit for the next 3 seasons if he meets incentives. After that he would logically require a huge raise (assuming he does as well as we expect). Same goes for Oshie. Not sure what his cap # will be, but it won't be that huge for the next few seasons and then logically he would require a large raise assuming he's done well.

Eller is a few seasons away, imo. So I am not worried about his cap hit at all. Yet.

So the Blues have about a 3 season window during which we could theoretically sign a Hossa. Jokinen type player for the huge money that they'd require and then by the end of their contracts we'd trade them or simply let them go as Berglund and Oshie will take up a lot of that excess money.

This is my mad, mad scheme. This is a big-time, crossing-my-fingers, idea that would be great in a perfect world. Well maybe not so perfect.
Very good points. As you say, there is a 3-4 year window to sign one big time scorer. Hossa's the man, if he wants to come to St. Louis.

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12-09-2007, 03:00 PM
  #71
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Hossa will definitely get a Briere like contract. Also for the person who listed the 09 FA's, no way in heck does Zetterberg ever hit Free Agency. Wings will lock him up for a long time.

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12-09-2007, 03:08 PM
  #72
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Hossa will definitely get a Briere like contract. Also for the person who listed the 09 FA's, no way in heck does Zetterberg ever hit Free Agency. Wings will lock him up for a long time.
If he does I say we offer him partial ownership of the team!!

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12-09-2007, 03:43 PM
  #73
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Backes isn't a top six forward.
Says who?

P_B


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12-09-2007, 04:34 PM
  #74
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Back to Hossa -

Without Weight, Rucinsky and Cajanek, next year's payroll will be $8.5 million lower.

I'd offer Hossa 4 years, $8.5 million per. If that's not good enough, then we move on.
...and would put up more points than those three wastes combined

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12-09-2007, 05:46 PM
  #75
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Says who?

P_B

Backes will never score more than 15 goals. You disagree?

Good third liner, skates okay, good size.

But he's not real strong on the puck and doesn't have great hands.

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