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Best NHL Players By The Decade

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
  #26
GuineaPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Does Lidstrom have any case over Brodeur in the 2000?
I think the consensus would be yes.

Just for goalies I would give the edge to Luongo over Brodeur regardless.

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12-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I think the consensus would be yes.

Just for goalies I would give the edge to Luongo over Brodeur regardless.
I can't possibly see the argument for that.

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Old
12-14-2012, 09:36 AM
  #28
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I can't possibly see the argument for that.
Even when Brodeurs age became an issue for him he led his team to the Cup final the very season that Luongo lost his job.
MAYBE Luongo has been better the last couple of years put together, but a decade is more than that... As a matter of fact, Luongos trip to the final and his starting job in the Olympics was'nt even in the decade we are now discussing.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:00 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Just for goalies I would give the edge to Luongo over Brodeur regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I can't possibly see the argument for that.
Top-10 Save Percentage 2000-2009
Brodeur: 3, 8
Luongo: 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 9, 10

Maybe you don't agree with it (and I'm not even saying that I do), but that isn't exactly a bad start for an argument.

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Old
12-14-2012, 10:17 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Top-10 Save Percentage 2000-2009
Brodeur: 3, 8
Luongo: 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 9, 10

Maybe you don't agree with it (and I'm not even saying that I do), but that isn't exactly a bad start for an argument.
Sigh. NJ severely undercounts shots, thus affecting save percentage

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12-14-2012, 10:44 AM
  #31
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Sigh. NJ severely undercounts shots, thus affecting save percentage
Yeah, I know. New Jersey fans only mention it every time someone types the word save percentage on HOH, so let's throw the baby out with the bath water, even though Brodeur's road save percentage was inferior to Luongo's road save percentage in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2009. They tied in 2006. So really, Brodeur was only superior twice: 2000 and 2008, so that's something to hang your hat on, eh?

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12-14-2012, 01:34 PM
  #32
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Besides, here's how Luongo's team ranked versus Brodeur's (with total number in brackets) in terms of power plays allowed from 1999-00 to 2008-09:

1st (420), 18th (313)
8th (398), 29th (320)
2nd (393), 30th (265)
18th (356), 30th (264)
7th (373), 30th (266)
6th (514), 30th (349)
5th (436), 30th (271)
9th (368), 26th (314)
5th (371), 22nd (324)

That's 3629 PPs against Luongo's teams for the decade, and 2686 for the Devils. That's 74% more!

That waaaay over-compensates for any deflation to Brodeur's save percentage based on shot undercounting.

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Old
12-14-2012, 02:51 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Besides, here's how Luongo's team ranked versus Brodeur's (with total number in brackets) in terms of power plays allowed from 1999-00 to 2008-09:

1st (420), 18th (313)
8th (398), 29th (320)
2nd (393), 30th (265)
18th (356), 30th (264)
7th (373), 30th (266)
6th (514), 30th (349)
5th (436), 30th (271)
9th (368), 26th (314)
5th (371), 22nd (324)

That's 3629 PPs against Luongo's teams for the decade, and 2686 for the Devils. That's 74% more!

That waaaay over-compensates for any deflation to Brodeur's save percentage based on shot undercounting.
That's 35% more, not 74%, and it most likely has less impact on Brodeur's SV% than the home under counting.

From an old thread:

2006-07 Brodeur: EV: 129 GA on 1758 SA; PP: 9 GA on 80 SA; PK: 33 GA on 344 SA

NJ spent 458:36 on the PK, we will raise that to the league leaders 762:02. 762:02/458:36 = 166.17%. PK SA go from 344 to 572. GA will go from 33 to 55.

NJ spent 617:43 on the PP, we will raise that to the league average 662:57. 662:57/617:43 = 107.32%. PP SA go from 80 to 86. GA will go from 9 to 10.

EV is a little more tricky, but I calculate that the changes in PP/PK time is equal to 1689:10 of the total 19304:49 NJ EV TOI. 17615:39/19304:49 = 91.25%. EV SA go from 1758 to 1605. GA will go from 129 to 118.

Total result is 12 more GA, GAA from 2.18 to 2.34, and 81 more SA (.852 SV%), with a drop in SV% of .0025.

T SAT GAT SVT SV%EV SAEV GAEV SVEV SV%PK SAPK GAPK SVPK SV%PP SAPP GAPP SVPP SV%
21821712011.92217581291629.92734433311.90480971.888
22631832080.91916051181487.92657255517.904861076.884

That is a pretty big swing, but it is also taking NJ to the top of the PK TOI list, so it's about as large a swing as you can get.

Now for the shot under counting impact.

The league average SOG/60 for 2006-07: Home: 28.22 Road: 30.24 Dif: 2.02 or 7.16%.
Brodeur: Home: 25.47 Road: 30.30 Dif: 4.83 or 18.19%.
NHL 2010-11: Home: 29.15 Road: 30.88 Dif: 1.73 or 5.93%.

We'll take the 2.02 avg off Brodeur's 4.83 leaving 2.81, and then take off the difference between 10-11 and 06-07 of 0.29 for a final total of 2.52. We'll round down to 2 SOG/60 and drop the one home game where Brodeur only played half the game. This leaves 38 home game times 2 for 76 shots (It would be 77.5 shots if we used his 2325:27 playing time in the 38 games).

Now take the two totals from above and add 76 saves.

SAGASVSV%SAGASVSV%Dif
21821712011.92222581712087.924.0026
22631832080.91923391832156.922.0026

So a fairly conservative estimate of under counting has as large an impact as the max PK change made above (The 2nd .922 above is .0001 higher than the first). Giving NJ the average PK TOI would reduce the PK impact by about a 3rd.

Adding another 38 SOG for Brodeur's personal shot preventing skills would bump it to .923.

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Old
12-14-2012, 03:02 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
That's 35% more, not 74%, and it most likely has less impact on Brodeur's SV% than the home under counting.
D'oh.

As for the shot undercounting, can you link me to the thread? I'm interested to see if there's any other examples.

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Old
12-14-2012, 03:07 PM
  #35
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Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

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Old
12-15-2012, 10:35 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
10's: Joe Malone
20's: Howie Morenz
30's: Eddie Shore
40's: Maurice Richard
50's: Gordie Howe
60's: Bobby Hull (hm: Beliveau)
70's: Bobby Orr (hm: Esposito, Lafleur)
80's: Wayne Gretzky
90's: Mario Lemieux (hm: Hasek, Jagr)
2000's: Nicklas Lidstrom
I agree with this almost entirely, except I would have Fred Taylor for the 10's.

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Old
12-15-2012, 02:51 PM
  #37
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Would be interested to see this split by 1955-1965, etc. Some players greatest years were a decade long, but started and ended at different times.

Would also like to see greatest by position.

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Old
12-15-2012, 03:48 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Lidstrom also has more Norris wins than Brodeur Vezina wins, and Lidstrom has a Conn Smythe.
Who cares if Lidstrom got a bunch of Norris awards he didn't deserve. Lidstrom shouldn't even be top 3 player of the decade.

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:08 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Would be interested to see this split by 1955-1965
SeasonsPlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS
1917-25Benedict ClintG2040.50
1917-25Vezina GeorgesG1946.00
1917-25Nighbor FrankC1871.00
1917-25Denneny CyLW1764.50
1917-25Boucher GeorgesD1715.85
1917-25Cleghorn SpragueD1670.10
1917-25Lalonde NewsyC1661.00
1917-25Dye BabeRW1474.00
1917-25Cameron HarryD1447.55
1917-25Malone JoeC1036.50
    
1925-35Shore EddieD2518.85
1925-35Boucher FrankC2413.50
1925-35Morenz HowieC2145.50
1925-35Cook BillRW1933.50
1925-35Clancy KingD1773.15
1925-35Stewart NelsC1580.50
1925-35Conacher CharlieRW1555.50
1925-35Hainsworth GeorgeG1482.50
1925-35Joliat AureleLW1320.00
1925-35Thompson TinyG1248.50
    
1935-45Cowley BillC1755.00
1935-45Apps C.J. SylC1698.00
1935-45Brimsek FrankG1424.50
1935-45Clapper DitD1331.20
1935-45Seibert EarlD1318.10
1935-45Blake ToeLW1277.00
1935-45Drillon GordieRW1259.00
1935-45Schriner SweeneyLW1173.00
1935-45Shore EddieD1106.95
1935-45Hextall Bryan Sr.RW1039.00
    
1945-55Richard MauriceRW2673.00
1945-55Howe GordieRW2612.50
1945-55Lindsay TedLW2007.00
1945-55Kelly RedD1914.35
1945-55Sawchuk TerryG1855.50
1945-55Durnan BillG1409.50
1945-55Kennedy TedC1371.50
1945-55Harvey DougD1253.35
1945-55Bentley MaxC1240.00
1945-55Lach ElmerC1212.00
    
1955-65Howe GordieRW3022.00
1955-65Beliveau JeanC2750.00
1955-65Plante JacquesG2408.50
1955-65Hull BobbyLW2206.00
1955-65Hall GlennG2170.50
1955-65Harvey DougD2045.35
1955-65Pilote PierreD1512.55
1955-65Bathgate AndyRW1483.50
1955-65Moore DickieLW1419.50
1955-65Geoffrion BernieRW1410.50
    
1965-75Orr BobbyD3643.55
1965-75Esposito PhilC3612.00
1965-75Mikita StanC2063.00
1965-75Hull BobbyLW1975.00
1965-75Esposito TonyG1396.50
1965-75Giacomin EdG1295.50
1965-75Parent BernieG1161.50
1965-75Clarke BobbyC1150.00
1965-75Cournoyer YvanRW1126.00
1965-75Park BradD1090.85
    
1975-85Gretzky WayneC3596.50
1975-85Lafleur GuyRW2341.50
1975-85Bossy MikeRW2057.00
1975-85Trottier BryanC1879.50
1975-85Potvin DenisD1769.65
1975-85Dionne MarcelC1648.50
1975-85Dryden KenG1551.00
1975-85Robinson LarryD1364.10
1975-85Smith BillyG1270.50
1975-85Clarke BobbyC1023.00
    
1985-95Gretzky WayneC3455.00
1985-95Lemieux MarioC2942.50
1985-95Bourque RayD2406.45
1985-95Roy PatrickG1782.00
1985-95Messier MarkC1618.00
1985-95Hull BrettRW1459.50
1985-95Coffey PaulD1204.05
1985-95Robitaille LucLW1158.50
1985-95Chelios ChrisD1114.20
1985-95Kurri JariRW1058.00
    
1995-04Jagr JaromirRW2359.00
1995-04Hasek DominikG1958.50
1995-04Lidstrom NicklasD1858.60
1995-04Sakic JoeC1758.00
1995-04Brodeur MartinG1382.50
1995-04Forsberg PeterC1326.00
1995-04Lemieux MarioC1269.00
1995-04Kariya PaulLW1214.50
1995-04Selanne TeemuRW1146.00
1995-04Naslund MarkusLW1098.00

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Old
12-16-2012, 08:13 AM
  #40
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SeasonsPlayerPOS"HHOF Monitor" PTS
1917-20Lalonde NewsyC1234.00
1917-20Nighbor FrankC929.50
1917-20Benedict ClintG789.00
1917-20Malone JoeC785.00
1917-20Vezina GeorgesG683.00
1917-20Cameron HarryD660.30
1917-20Cleghorn SpragueD542.80
1917-20Denneny CyLW458.50
1917-20Denneny CorbettC407.00
1917-20Darragh JackRW375.50
    
1920-25Dye BabeRW1463.00
1920-25Boucher GeorgesD1342.25
1920-25Denneny CyLW1306.00
1920-25Vezina GeorgesG1263.00
1920-25Benedict ClintG1251.50
1920-25Cleghorn SpragueD1127.30
1920-25Nighbor FrankC941.50
1920-25Broadbent Harry PunchRW876.00
1920-25Cameron HarryD787.25
1920-25Boucher BillyRW742.00
    
1925-30Boucher FrankC1363.00
1925-30Stewart NelsC1257.00
1925-30Morenz HowieC1168.50
1925-30Hainsworth GeorgeG1163.50
1925-30Shore EddieD928.65
1925-30Connell AlecG832.50
1925-30Thompson TinyG806.50
1925-30Mantha SylvioD759.65
1925-30Clancy KingD751.95
1925-30Cook BillRW715.00
    
1930-35Shore EddieD1590.20
1930-35Conacher CharlieRW1534.00
1930-35Cook BillRW1218.50
1930-35Gardiner ChuckG1100.00
1930-35Boucher FrankC1050.50
1930-35Clancy KingD1021.20
1930-35Morenz HowieC977.00
1930-35Jackson BusherLW761.50
1930-35Joliat AureleLW719.00
1930-35Primeau JoeC695.50
    
1935-40Shore EddieD1106.95
1935-40Apps C.J. SylC920.00
1935-40Drillon GordieRW906.00
1935-40Goodfellow EbbieD894.75
1935-40Kerr DaveG875.00
1935-40Schriner SweeneyLW796.00
1935-40Blake ToeLW740.00
1935-40Clapper DitD689.60
1935-40Siebert BabeD668.65
1935-40Brimsek FrankG656.00
    
1940-45Cowley BillC1265.50
1940-45Bentley DougLW887.00
1940-45Seibert EarlD781.50
1940-45Apps C.J. SylC778.00
1940-45Brimsek FrankG768.50
1940-45Durnan BillG715.00
1940-45Broda TurkG711.50
1940-45Hollett FlashD686.85
1940-45Hextall Bryan Sr.RW683.00
1940-45Lach ElmerC673.50
    
1945-50Durnan BillG1409.50
1945-50Richard MauriceRW1188.50
1945-50Bentley MaxC1026.50
1945-50Stewart JackD929.25
1945-50Lindsay TedLW882.00
1945-50Broda TurkG877.50
1945-50Abel SidC872.50
1945-50Reardon KenD803.85
1945-50Kennedy TedC764.50
1945-50Lach ElmerC733.50
    
1950-55Howe GordieRW2234.50
1950-55Sawchuk TerryG1852.50
1950-55Kelly RedD1539.85
1950-55Richard MauriceRW1484.50
1950-55Harvey DougD1192.25
1950-55Lindsay TedLW1125.00
1950-55Geoffrion BernieRW802.50
1950-55Lumley HarryG651.50
1950-55Smith SidLW651.50
1950-55Kennedy TedC607.00
    
1955-60Plante JacquesG1893.00
1955-60Beliveau JeanC1881.50
1955-60Howe GordieRW1773.00
1955-60Harvey DougD1391.65
1955-60Moore DickieLW1231.50
1955-60Hall GlennG1010.50
1955-60Richard MauriceRW946.50
1955-60Gadsby BillD806.65
1955-60Richard HenriC794.50
1955-60Geoffrion BernieRW777.00
    
1960-65Hull BobbyLW1647.00
1960-65Pilote PierreD1365.25
1960-65Mikita StanC1301.50
1960-65Howe GordieRW1249.00
1960-65Hall GlennG1160.00
1960-65Bower JohnnyG1133.00
1960-65Mahovlich FrankLW911.50
1960-65Beliveau JeanC868.50
1960-65Ullman NormC789.50
1960-65Bathgate AndyRW759.50
    
1965-70Mikita StanC1688.50
1965-70Hull BobbyLW1583.50
1965-70Orr BobbyD1359.40
1965-70Esposito PhilC1229.00
1965-70Hall GlennG986.50
1965-70Beliveau JeanC885.50
1965-70Worsley Lorne GumpG806.50
1965-70Giacomin EdG743.50
1965-70Howe GordieRW712.00
1965-70Rousseau BobbyRW575.50
    
1970-75Esposito PhilC2383.00
1970-75Orr BobbyD2284.15
1970-75Clarke BobbyC1121.50
1970-75Parent BernieG1104.00
1970-75Esposito TonyG950.00
1970-75Dryden KenG936.00
1970-75Park BradD847.45
1970-75Bucyk JohnLW727.00
1970-75Cournoyer YvanRW675.50
1970-75Giacomin EdG552.00
    
1975-80Lafleur GuyRW2215.50
1975-80Dryden KenG1551.00
1975-80Robinson LarryD1191.45
1975-80Trottier BryanC1188.50
1975-80Dionne MarcelC1112.00
1975-80Potvin DenisD1091.65
1975-80Clarke BobbyC831.00
1975-80Shutt SteveLW797.00
1975-80Salming BorjeD683.80
1975-80Gainey BobLW631.50
    
1980-85Gretzky WayneC3095.00
1980-85Bossy MikeRW1474.00
1980-85Coffey PaulD925.25
1980-85Kurri JariRW822.00
1980-85Smith BillyG800.50
1980-85Langway RodD777.35
1980-85Bourque RayD728.45
1980-85Messier MarkLW702.00
1980-85Trottier BryanC691.00
1980-85Potvin DenisD678.00
    
1985-90Gretzky WayneC2271.00
1985-90Lemieux MarioC1728.50
1985-90Bourque RayD1258.60
1985-90Messier MarkC966.00
1985-90Roy PatrickG915.00
1985-90Kurri JariRW887.00
1985-90Coffey PaulD721.85
1985-90Fuhr GrantG658.50
1985-90Macinnis AlD642.35
1985-90Robitaille LucLW593.50
    
1990-95Lemieux MarioC1214.00
1990-95Gretzky WayneC1184.00
1990-95Bourque RayD1147.85
1990-95Hull BrettRW1044.00
1990-95Belfour EdG899.00
1990-95Roy PatrickG867.00
1990-95Jagr JaromirRW780.00
1990-95Stevens KevinLW755.50
1990-95Fedorov SergeiC716.00
1990-95Chelios ChrisD663.90
    
1995-00Jagr JaromirRW1862.00
1995-00Hasek DominikG1538.50
1995-00Selanne TeemuRW994.00
1995-00Kariya PaulLW927.00
1995-00Lemieux MarioC925.50
1995-00Lidstrom NicklasD890.60
1995-00Yzerman SteveC720.00
1995-00Forsberg PeterC670.50
1995-00Leclair JohnLW653.50
1995-00Brodeur MartinG627.00
    
2000-04Sakic JoeC1135.50
2000-04Lidstrom NicklasD968.00
2000-04Naslund MarkusLW947.50
2000-04Iginla JaromeRW932.50
2000-04Brodeur MartinG755.50
2000-04Forsberg PeterC655.50
2000-04St. Louis MartinRW625.50
2000-04Roy PatrickG538.50
2000-04Jagr JaromirRW497.00
2000-04Sundin MatsC476.00

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Old
12-16-2012, 12:10 PM
  #41
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Wow, does Bill Cowley ever stick out like a sore thumb among those half-decade HOF monitor point leaders.

The second and third worst players among that group are Frank Boucher and Joe Sakic, and that's a huge step up.

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12-16-2012, 01:18 PM
  #42
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Wow, does Bill Cowley ever stick out like a sore thumb among those half-decade HOF monitor point leaders.

The second and third worst players among that group are Frank Boucher and Joe Sakic, and that's a huge step up.


Joe Sakic is probably one of the most underrated players on these boards.

Of all the players he is compared to; Yzerman, Crosby, Forsberg and Messier and Jagr, he is better than all of them except Jagr and that says a lot.

Sakic in my mind is a top 10 all-time center.

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12-16-2012, 02:52 PM
  #43
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Joe Sakic is probably one of the most underrated players on these boards.

Of all the players he is compared to; Yzerman, Crosby, Forsberg and Messier and Jagr, he is better than all of them except Jagr and that says a lot.

Sakic in my mind is a top 10 all-time center.
Neither Yzerman, Crosby, Forsberg or Messier are in the group I was talking about. I have no idea what you think I was saying.

Although I will say I missed Babe Dye when I posted. He's closer to Cowley's level than either Boucher or Sakic.

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12-16-2012, 04:23 PM
  #44
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Here's another set of criteria: players of the decade, starting at the midpoint of each. So, 2005-present, 1995-2004, 1985-1994, etc.

2005-present is probably either Crosby or Ovechkin. Would probably lean towards the latter. Could make a case for Lidstrom I suppose.
1995-2004, one has a solid case for either Jagr or Hasek. Sakic would definitely merit consideration.
1985-1994 is Gretzky, with Lemieux being a very strong second. Roy would also be in the mix.
1975-1984 is probably Gretzky again. Dionne has the edge on him in points by 17, but required 301 more games to do it. Insane.
1965-1974 is Orr.

After that my hockey knowledge sort of prevents me from making informed decisions, but I'd like to hear what other people think.

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12-16-2012, 04:47 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Here's another set of criteria: players of the decade, starting at the midpoint of each. So, 2005-present, 1995-2004, 1985-1994, etc.

2005-present is probably either Crosby or Ovechkin. Would probably lean towards the latter. Could make a case for Lidstrom I suppose.
1995-2004, one has a solid case for either Jagr or Hasek. Sakic would definitely merit consideration.
1985-1994 is Gretzky, with Lemieux being a very strong second. Roy would also be in the mix.
1975-1984 is probably Gretzky again. Dionne has the edge on him in points by 17, but required 301 more games to do it. Insane.
1965-1974 is Orr.

After that my hockey knowledge sort of prevents me from making informed decisions, but I'd like to hear what other people think.
2005-present: Definitely Crosby or Ovechkin.
1995-2004: Jagr, Hasek, or Sakic. Lidstrom just a bit behind.
1985-1994: Gretzky. Lemieux 2nd. Bourque and Roy can fight it out for third.
1975-1984: What about Guy Lafleur? All 6 years of his prime are captured in this time frame. Denis Potvin has to get some consideration, as well. I'd take both of them over Dionne for the time frame. Gretzky has to be in the mix, just because of his peak.
1965-1974: Bobby Orr

1955-1964: Jean Beliveau
1945-1954: Maurice Richard

Seems awfully strange not to have Howe or Hull, but those time frames match the primes of Richard and Beliveau almost exactly.

1935-1944: Eddie Shore, even though he didn't play the whole time frame
1925-1934: Howie Morenz
1915-1924: Frank Nighbor or Cyclone Taylor
1905-1914: Tommy Phillips, I think.
1895-1904: Russel Bowie or Hod Stuart probably, even though they are more 1900s guys. Dan Bain for the late 1890s.

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12-16-2012, 05:02 PM
  #46
GuineaPig
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Yeah, I only mentioned Dionne because he has the most points (with Gretzky 2nd) in that stretch of ten years. I don't see how one can give it to Lafleur over Gretzky, though. Gretzky outscored him by 170 points in 203 less games, and while Lafleur usually makes up lost ground on other players based on his playoff performances, he doesn't on Gretzky.

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12-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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Thank you Pnep!

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12-16-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Who cares if Lidstrom got a bunch of Norris awards he didn't deserve. Lidstrom shouldn't even be top 3 player of the decade.
LOL.. just thought this^^^was hilarious

But anyways, for the rational people, Lidstrom has more Norrises than Brodeur has Vezinas in the decade plus a Conn Smythe and a Cup after the lockout, which I think is noteworthy at the very least. And I think it's hard to argue that a Vezina isn't easier to win than a Norris, considering the competition for a Vezina is about 30 starting goalies compared to a couple hundred defensemen for the Norris

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12-16-2012, 09:58 PM
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pnep is still here. haven't seen him in a while. nice

Edit: Why no nicknames in the list though? I enjoyed reading them

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12-16-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Sigh. NJ severely undercounts shots, thus affecting save percentage
Dumb question, but how come they do that? I mean, there'll never be consistency, but how come one franchise is generally on the lower end?

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