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Is it time to fire Carbonneau?

View Poll Results: Is it time to fire Carbonneau?
Yes 178 46.35%
No 206 53.65%
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Old
12-08-2007, 10:47 PM
  #76
SOLR
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
I defended Carbo up to some point earlier this season. I think it was preseason I dont remember. Yes there are other problems. Koivu one of them. But Carbo's strategy is failing. We need new air.
On the background noise I agree with you, Carbo doesnt seem to be in control of his team(but WHO is then?), he can hardly press the correct buttons to generate a reaction. BUT, I'm quite past the point where I would consider keeping Koivu over a coach for a 4th time considering the information we now have about those coaches. It's not very surprising to me that the best performance we have seen out of the habs in the past 5-6 years is with Gainey behind the bench, there was no more room for coasting since the real boss was there.

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12-08-2007, 10:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
You have to stop blaming Carbo for the mediocre performance of our "leaders". Sometimes you have to cut the head of the dragon, for a new beginning. If Koivu was a PPG player do you think we would have this thread atm? What about our 30 goal scorer?

Carbo is only playing the cards hes being dealt and right now, the dealer isnt very generous.
There are expert card players and there are marks who leave with an empty wallet. A good coach may not be the big winner but at least he would win more hands with the same cards handed to the dub named by Gainey.

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:51 PM
  #78
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People can blame the players all they want, but this team has retained basically the same cast for several years in a row, and I have NEVER seen them play so erratically before...They play like they aren't following any system...They just chase the puck, it's completely ridiculous. They have one, at most, forechecker. They can't clear the zone at all. I have never seen these guys do this before.

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:52 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
There are expert card players and there are marks who leave with an empty wallet. A good coach may not be the big winner but at least he would win more hands with the same cards handed to the dub named by Gainey.
When teams like the thrashers have more cards then us you have to wonder what cards do we have. If you play poker, you can only bluff for so long, the habs have been bluffing for way too long.

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
When teams like the thrashers have more cards then us you have to wonder what cards do we have. If you play poker, you can only bluff for so long, the habs have been bluffing for way too long.
I agree. The Habs have been trying to bluff their way through coaches since Demers.

Put it this way - how many of the top teams in the NHL right now have crappy coaches or "true" rookie coaches?

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:53 PM
  #81
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this is quite the debate, true, we've had nothing but rookie coaches, and it seems like most of them play a defense system. Well maybe not in Pittsburgh. But Vancouver? Boston? I mean Julien tried the defensive system it failed. Vigneault plays a defensive system and it didn't do to well in Montreal. I think the problem lies within the system. It works well in the beginning of the season it would appear. I think we need to change the system. Personally I don't like watching defensive hockey. New Jersey used to be the most boring hockey, Minnesota is pretty boring hockey to watch sometimes. But anyways, so if we fire carbo, Gainey comes down to the bench, and then what? I mean it seems like over the past 10 years it has been almost impossible to sign a superstar forward here. Kovalev in my opinion is the closets we've got in the past 5 years. And he's doing good. But he never was a the one and only star of any team he played for. I think those who are crying out that we need a "number 1 centre" aren't that far off from the real glaring problem in Montreal. Koivu is great and all but he's getting older and lately doesn't seem to be getting anything done with Higgins and Ryder. I mean this line should be producing much more then it has been. I really don't have that much complaint about the Kovalev - Plekanec - Kostitsyn line. for a 2nd line they're pretty good. But our first line isn't going anywhere and thus our scoring is in the *****. Is that carbo's fault? Maybe maybe not. Because we all know that they can produce. Part of the problem too is that we have former defencemen playing forward. Yeah maybe that works out alright for 3rd and 4th lines but I agree that we shouldn't be seeing Streit or Smolinsky playing on the first line. But hell I'd try and stir the pot too. Put yourself in the situation of my forwards that should be doing well aren't doing well. Well you give things a shot. You can't say that you've been thrilled with Latendresse, Ryder, Koivu and Higgins play recently. I dunno maybe I'm crazy and haven't seen enough games due to damn school and my studies but that's my oppinion from what I've seen. And being someone that does play the game for fun of course. I know that sometimes it's a mental thing from the players perspective and the team chemistry is lacking. I don't think Carbo is necessarily a bad coach but the way the canadiens are playing the game, the system needs to change and I think an outside source top line player needs to give the team a confidence boost.

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:53 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
People can blame the players all they want, but this team has retained basically the same cast for several years in a row, and I have NEVER seen them play so erratically before...They play like they aren't following any system...They just chase the puck, it's completely ridiculous. They have one, at most, forechecker. They can't clear the zone at all. I have never seen these guys do this before.
Hmm what about January 2007? or January 2006? err wait nvm hey?

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:55 PM
  #83
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I agree. The Habs have been trying to bluff their way through franchise players since Houle.
Voila

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:55 PM
  #84
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Hmm what about January 2007? or January 2006? err wait nvm hey?
Last year was the same damn coach!

The year before, the team played well...It was Theodore losing them every game.

Theodore was traded, and the team went on a tear.

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:56 PM
  #85
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when we had that big slump 2 years ago... very few people wanted Gainey to fire Julien because it was clear to us that Julien was a great coach.

Right now it's clear for us that Carbonneau is doing a poor poor job. I wouldn't mind him as an assistant but he can't be a head coach.

We need Pat Burns NOW!

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Old
12-08-2007, 10:59 PM
  #86
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
There are expert card players and there are marks who leave with an empty wallet. A good coach may not be the big winner but at least he would win more hands with the same cards handed to the dub named by Gainey.
I agree that a good coach should usually win more games with a given roster than a bad coach.

However, it's the bizarre leap that this team isn't already giving the max that I cannot understand. Put an idiot coach instead of Carbo and you'll see this team slip.

It's so weird because the first time I noticed your posting, it was after an excellent analysis of the NJ-Habs game. Since then, it's nothing but nonsense and refusal to look at the roster for what it is.

I'm certainly not going to pretend Carbo is an elite coach. But he's very decent. It's this team that is poorly built and gives very little options.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Voila
So tell me oh intelligent one, how do you get a franchise player here if we have nothing good enough to trade for one (unless you want to rip out a huge portion of the team's core), and if UFA's don't want to sign here??

Changing a coach is a piece of cake compared to that. But seriously - we go and spend all this money on attracting players here, and then throw a rookie coach in to "teach" them how to play hockey. How absurd is that?

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Last year was the same damn coach!

The year before, the team played well...It was Theodore losing them every game.

Theodore was traded, and the team went on a tear.
Yet Julien had the same habits of trying to change things, all the same thing you are now putting all on carbo. Same with Therrien, same with Vigneault etc. I mean its all music to my ears, I know the melody all to well. Every time the coach changes, yet the main players remains.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Yet Julien had the same habits of trying to change things, all the same thing you are now putting all on carbo. Same with Therrien, same with Vigneault etc. I mean its all music to my ears, I know the melody all to well. Every time the coach changes, yet the main players remains.
Is it not possible these coaches learned what NOT to do during their stint in Montreal, and them getting fired made an impact so they wouldn't do it again?

Voila.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:07 PM
  #90
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Bring Hartley please... and hurry!

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:09 PM
  #91
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Bring Hartley please... and hurry!
You can't be serious.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
So tell me oh intelligent one, how do you get a franchise player here if we have nothing good enough to trade for one (unless you want to rip out a huge portion of the team's core), and if UFA's don't want to sign here??

Changing a coach is a piece of cake compared to that. But seriously - we go and spend all this money on attracting players here, and then throw a rookie coach in to "teach" them how to play hockey. How absurd is that?
How do you get franchise player in 2007? you tank, thats the reality in ALL cap sports. Trades are a thing of the past, you have to accept the rapid changing reality and you HAVE to accept to stunk some years. To win championship you need franchise players. I think we have currently 1 franchise player, hes named Carey Price. We need at least another. Don't get me wrong, we also have some great depth coming to surround some possible franchise players, but a bunch of support cast guys together will never give you a championship. Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Komisarek are all first class support cast members. .

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:14 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
How do you get franchise player in 2007? you tank, thats the reality in ALL cap sports. Trades are a thing of the past, you have to accept the rapid changing reality and you HAVE to accept to stunk some years. To win championship you need franchise players. I think we have currently 1 franchise player, hes named Carey Price. We need at least another. Don't get me wrong, we also have some great depth coming to surround some possible franchise players, but a bunch of support cast guys together will never give you a championship. Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Komisarek are all first class support cast members. .
That's all well and good, but let's speak about reality shall we - because that ain't ever happening in La Ville est Hockey, Quebec Canada.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:15 PM
  #94
Vlad The Impaler
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People can blame the players all they want, but this team has retained basically the same cast for several years in a row, and I have NEVER seen them play so erratically before...
That's simply another myth. This roster has been on the decline for years now, people have just refused to accept it and see what was going on.

Jesus... only two years ago, the Habs had a younger Saku Koivu (already on the decline but not as bad as he is now), Mike Ribeiro, Tomas Plekanec and Radek Bonk down the middle.

The defense had superior character and toughness to surround Markov and Komisarek with Sheldon Souray and Craig Rivet. Ryder and Higgins were there, but they weren't asked to do as much as they are now.

The overrated Alex Kovalev was two years younger and the Habs had other nice foward veterans like Zednik, Bulis, Perez, Begin, etc...

Guys like Streit were not counted on to be saviors and Bouillon, Dandy, etc... were overrated but two years younger.

We're talking about a team that was already lacking in leadership, character, toughness AT THE TIME.

The team you are seeing this year has lost two rugged veteran defensemen. Has added a talented but confused Kostitsyn and a rushed Latendresse. Higgins is asked to do too much. Ribeiro was not only dumped... Gainey was actually violated to get him off the roster. Koivu is now seriously declining, Bonk has been replaced by an inferior player and several wingers are gone as well.

You've never seen the team play that way because it's NOT the same team you pretend it is.

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12-08-2007, 11:15 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
People can blame the players all they want, but this team has retained basically the same cast for several years in a row, and I have NEVER seen them play so erratically before...They play like they aren't following any system...They just chase the puck, it's completely ridiculous. They have one, at most, forechecker. They can't clear the zone at all. I have never seen these guys do this before.
I don't think you followed the Habs long enough.

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12-08-2007, 11:16 PM
  #96
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Bring Hartley please... and hurry!
I dont think he's a great coach. BUT....I do think he'd bring some passion and get us some goon on the team. Hartley likes his players to send messages.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:16 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Is it not possible these coaches learned what NOT to do during their stint in Montreal, and them getting fired made an impact so they wouldn't do it again?

Voila.
Coaching isnt like F=MA, theres no single thing you can change in your coaching to make it way better, its a complex arrangement of circumstances and decisions, therefore even if yes there was some obvious learning in Montreal, that's not imo a really big factor in showing that those coaches were actually quite OK to begin with and there a big probability that there respective firing come from roots that runs much deeper, yet are simple to explain: we lack talent.

As we say in french. C'est facile trouver une tÍte de turc!


Last edited by SOLR: 12-08-2007 at 11:23 PM.
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Old
12-08-2007, 11:19 PM
  #98
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That's all well and good, but let's speak about reality shall we - because that ain't ever happening in La Ville est Hockey, Quebec Canada.
Don't speak to fast, Ive seen bigger things happen since I follow hockey.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:22 PM
  #99
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Coaching isnt like F=MA, theres no single thing you can change in your coaching to make it way better, its a complex arrangement of circumstances and decisions, therefore even if yes there was some obvious learning in Montreal, that's not imo a really big factor in showing that those coaches were actually quite OK to begin with and there a big probability that there respective firing come from roots that runs much deeper, yet are simple to explain: we lack talent.
See, that's the thing though. You admit yes they learned in Montreal - but it IS a big factor. We are losing games and respect from the players because of rookie mistakes, time and time again. Bad line combos, shuffling, calling out/benching veterans, etc. Only a coach's "system" takes more than a couple of years to define - the rest you should learn fairly quickly.

Carbo's biggest mistake in Montreal is that he is trying to be the big man on campus and show the players who the boss is. Players are different these days than they were 15-20 years ago. They need to be treated like stars, be asked to do things a certain way instead of telling them, and not under any circumstances be publically embarrassed. He just keeps losing the room and I don't think it's coming back for him this time.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:25 PM
  #100
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Sometimes I am amazed to see how habs fan are into a loser frame of mind. You gotta get real, every team goes thru slump. We need stability in Montreal, I think we should prone some more patience. What I mean is, we shouldn't be going crazy after a couple of loss. Carbo's biggest mistake to me is his habits of changing it all after a bad streak.

You can't make those move every 2 games, it kills the effect. I think we should stop putting d-men in front, and keep our original lines for a good while, whatever happens. We gotta stop thinking that every loss can be put on the fault of bad combinations of players. The secret to win a hockey game is effort. I would love it if we could keep the same lines and to have everyone looking into the same direction ; when we work we win.

Change the attitude, not the coach.
.

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