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Is it time to fire Carbonneau?

View Poll Results: Is it time to fire Carbonneau?
Yes 178 46.35%
No 206 53.65%
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Old
12-08-2007, 11:25 PM
  #101
waffledave
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
That's simply another myth. This roster has been on the decline for years now, people have just refused to accept it and see what was going on.

Jesus... only two years ago, the Habs had a younger Saku Koivu (already on the decline but not as bad as he is now), Mike Ribeiro, Tomas Plekanec and Radek Bonk down the middle.

The defense had superior character and toughness to surround Markov and Komisarek with Sheldon Souray and Craig Rivet. Ryder and Higgins were there, but they weren't asked to do as much as they are now.

The overrated Alex Kovalev was two years younger and the Habs had other nice foward veterans like Zednik, Bulis, Perez, Begin, etc...

Guys like Streit were not counted on to be saviors and Bouillon, Dandy, etc... were overrated but two years younger.

We're talking about a team that was already lacking in leadership, character, toughness AT THE TIME.

The team you are seeing this year has lost two rugged veteran defensemen. Has added a talented but confused Kostitsyn and a rushed Latendresse. Higgins is asked to do too much. Ribeiro was not only dumped... Gainey was actually violated to get him off the roster. Koivu is now seriously declining, Bonk has been replaced by an inferior player and several wingers are gone as well.

You've never seen the team play that way because it's NOT the same team you pretend it is.
You make some good points but I refuse to believe this team lacks talent. On the PP this team is deadly...They move the puck incredibly well. That requires talent...The problem is trying to get some sort of defensive and transition game going. They either lack the players to do it effectively, or the system simply doesn't work.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:29 PM
  #102
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See, that's the thing though. You admit yes they learned in Montreal - but it IS a big factor. We are losing games and respect from the players because of rookie mistakes, time and time again. Bad line combos, shuffling, calling out/benching veterans, etc. Only a coach's "system" takes more than a couple of years to define - the rest you should learn fairly quickly.

Carbo's biggest mistake in Montreal is that he is trying to be the big man on campus and show the players who the boss is. Players are different these days than they were 15-20 years ago. They need to be treated like stars, be asked to do things a certain way instead of telling them, and not under any circumstances be publically embarrassed. He just keeps losing the room and I don't think it's coming back for him this time.
That's pretty speculative. Many coaches are talking to the medias about their players not player to expectations, its not new and its not old. While you dont coach in 2007 like in 1950, still a coach must have some authority. I don't mind Carbo bad mouthing the guys when they deserve it. (Listen to Pierre Pagé for 1 week...lol)

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12-08-2007, 11:31 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You make some good points but I refuse to believe this team lacks talent. On the PP this team is deadly...They move the puck incredibly well. That requires talent...The problem is trying to get some sort of defensive and transition game going. They either lack the players to do it effectively, or the system simply doesn't work.
We all know the players and talent are there - we have seen it at the first of the season, just like nearly every season lately. What the problem is, quite clearly, is the coach and his system.

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12-08-2007, 11:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
That's pretty speculative. Many coaches are talking to the medias about their players not player to expectations, its not new and its not old. While you dont coach in 2007 like in 1950, still a coach must have some authority. I don't mind Carbo bad mouthing the guys when they deserve it. (Listen to Pierre Pagé for 1 week...lol)
That's great. Do you think it's been working for him?

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12-08-2007, 11:33 PM
  #105
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I don't want to see Carboneau fired that much, but I REALLY want to see Gainey coaching the habs again. I can't see this team slacking off with someone like him behind the bench.

Also, we have 3 retired defensive line players as coaches and we can't figure out why we don't create any offense and chances to score?

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12-08-2007, 11:35 PM
  #106
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Just throwing it out there...do you see Bob Hartley coaching the habs?

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12-08-2007, 11:36 PM
  #107
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Also, we have 3 retired defensive line players as coaches and we can't figure out why we don't create any offense and chances to score?
At this point, I honestly think Kovalev could do a better job of coaching in this situation than them.

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12-08-2007, 11:36 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You make some good points but I refuse to believe this team lacks talent. On the PP this team is deadly...They move the puck incredibly well. That requires talent...The problem is trying to get some sort of defensive and transition game going. They either lack the players to do it effectively, or the system simply doesn't work.
Which one of our forwards is in the top 30 scoring? wait top 50?

Our 2 franchises forwards are over 30, no wonder they can only score on the power play where its more brain less brawn.

I'll tell you what I understand about "systems". The quality of a system is proportionally equal to the quality of the players practicing it. You don't and never will win only with a system. You need talent first, system second.

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12-08-2007, 11:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by dude_guy9 View Post
Just throwing it out there...do you see Bob Hartley coaching the habs?
I would welcome just about any coach with some more than 3 years of NHL coaching experience over Carbo.

But sadly no, Carbo will never be fired by Gainey.

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12-08-2007, 11:39 PM
  #110
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Look at one point, Gainey will just have to take matters into his own hands, before his job becomes on the line.

Business is business, and at this point we need an experienced coach who can bring back energy and poise to a once storied franchise!

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12-08-2007, 11:40 PM
  #111
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it's time to bring a coach with experience

Bob Hartley is available.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:40 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Which one of our forwards is in the top 30 scoring? wait top 50?

Our 2 franchises forwards are over 30, no wonder they can only score on the power play where its more brain less brawn.

I'll tell you what I understand about "systems". The quality of a system is proportionally equal to the quality of the players practicing it. You don't and never will win only with a system. You need talent first, system second.
Simply not true. Teams that aren't expected to do well win the cup all the time, and conversly teams expected to go all the way sometimes go out in the first round.

I think that coaching and the system have more to do with it than you think. We have skilled players - they just aren't playing the proper game to show it.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:40 PM
  #113
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That's great. Do you think it's been working for him?
So-so tbh. Buts it's like having a good poker face or not, when you never have any good cards to play it doesnt really matter what kind of antics you can pull around the game.

The new Kovalev maybe was born from the open criticism by Carbo? Think about the long term effect as well...of having a strong leadership that will not be "scared" and "too polite".

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:41 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Which one of our forwards is in the top 30 scoring? wait top 50?

Our 2 franchises forwards are over 30, no wonder they can only score on the power play where its more brain less brawn.

I'll tell you what I understand about "systems". The quality of a system is proportionally equal to the quality of the players practicing it. You don't and never will win only with a system. You need talent first, system second.
Well, Kovalev is 54th in scoring, but I get what you're trying to say.

I don't think the passive system this team plays is suited to guys like Kovalev, Kostitsyn, Koivu, Markov, etc...They need to play a more aggressive system. You can see that these guys are uncomfortable playing this way.

You may no agree that a system makes a difference, but it really does. You can't win with a 1 man forecheck. Not without capitalizing on EVERY ONE of your chances.

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12-08-2007, 11:42 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Well, Kovalev is 54th in scoring, but I get what you're trying to say.

I don't think the passive system this team plays is suited to guys like Kovalev, Kostitsyn, Koivu, Markov, etc...They need to play a more aggressive system. You can see that these guys are uncomfortable playing this way.

You may no agree that a system makes a difference, but it really does. You can't win with a 1 man forecheck. Not without capitalizing on EVERY ONE of your chances.
Finally, someone that gets it.

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12-08-2007, 11:42 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Komisarovski View Post
it's time to bring a coach with experience

Bob Hartley is available.

Bob Hartley is more of a sidegrade.. we need to get one with Experience AND talent.

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Old
12-08-2007, 11:45 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Simply not true. Teams that aren't expected to do well win the cup all the time, and conversly teams expected to go all the way sometimes go out in the first round.

I think that coaching and the system have more to do with it than you think. We have skilled players - they just aren't playing the proper game to show it.
Name me the last one again? Expectation is such a thing that its different with every person you ask.

I love how many people believe in magic. Yet we don't have 1 player on our team that is currently playing like 1 franchise player of any of the 20 last stanley cup finalists.

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12-08-2007, 11:45 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
So-so tbh. Buts it's like having a good poker face or not, when you never have any good cards to play it doesnt really matter what kind of antics you can pull around the game.

The new Kovalev maybe was born from the open criticism by Carbo? Think about the long term effect as well...of having a strong leadership that will not be "scared" and "too polite".
Everything in your post is bull. So-so? I have yet to see one player react well to his method of calling them out. Give me examples, cause Kovalev certainly isn't one. You'd have to be from another planet to think that Carbo calling him out is the reason he's playing better.

Strong leadership is all well and good if your name is Pat Burns because you carry respect and knowledge. When your name is Carbonneau or Tremblay - that could be your death sentence.

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12-08-2007, 11:48 PM
  #119
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the thing is , to me, that this team is exactly where it should be right now, and where it will probably be at the end of the year, which is fighting for a playoff spot. i mean what do you guys could expect when our points leader at the end of the year will have around 60 points? when our goalies and defense corp has been really average for so long? when we got no real leaders? when we're small and we badly miss grit and toughness? i think lots of us are fooled by the great beginning of season we had this year and last season. they were playing on their heads at the time. accept it. we're not a really good hockey club, average at best.

i think a lot of people on this board need to face the facts: we just can't compete for a long period of time - read full season-.

we may get a little boost if a new coach comes in, but it's just gonna be temporary, probably enough to give new hope to some of us, but i'm not gonna be one of them.

sorry for my hyper realism.

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12-08-2007, 11:48 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Name me the last one again? Expectation is such a thing that its different with every person you ask.

I love how many people believe in magic. Yet we don't have 1 player on our team that is currently playing like 1 franchise player of any of the 20 last stanley cup finalists.
What is your problem anyway? No one is denying that we don't have a franchise player - but does that mean we should give up because we'll never make the playoffs anyway?? Just because we don't have a Thornton or Crosby doesn't mean we can't be a contender. Give me a team of hard working, goal orientated players and they can get by on their work ethic and WANT to succeed a lot more than you think is possible.

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12-08-2007, 11:49 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Well, Kovalev is 54th in scoring, but I get what you're trying to say.

I don't think the passive system this team plays is suited to guys like Kovalev, Kostitsyn, Koivu, Markov, etc...They need to play a more aggressive system. You can see that these guys are uncomfortable playing this way.

You may no agree that a system makes a difference, but it really does. You can't win with a 1 man forecheck. Not without capitalizing on EVERY ONE of your chances.
+1, Someone has the stats for puck possession? I'm curious.

This team must believe that the puck is infected or something, because I've never seen a team such in a hurry to give the puck away. Waffledave was right with his analysis about the Habs not been able to attack for long while rolling 4 lines. Tonight, I've seen ONE shift where they were able to keep the pressure in Carolina territory and set up a play for more than 10 secs.. Every other time they were breaking-in, screwed up an odd-man rush or dumping it in to fail at having a good scoring chance.

We need to get stronger on Defence, but the system must change now before it's too late..

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12-08-2007, 11:49 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Well, Kovalev is 54th in scoring, but I get what you're trying to say.

I don't think the passive system this team plays is suited to guys like Kovalev, Kostitsyn, Koivu, Markov, etc...They need to play a more aggressive system. You can see that these guys are uncomfortable playing this way.

You may no agree that a system makes a difference, but it really does. You can't win with a 1 man forecheck. Not without capitalizing on EVERY ONE of your chances.
But this team isnt playing a 1 man forecheck, they are playing 2-1-2, 1-2-2 hybrid like every others teams.(only the wild and canucks play 1-2-2 these days) It comes down to good execution. And where does execution come from? Talent, passion and effort. I don't think we lack passion, I think the effort is quite all right(most nights), we lack talent.

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12-08-2007, 11:51 PM
  #123
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But this team isnt playing a 1 man forecheck
Oh yes they are. Try pressing the "ON" button on your remote next time.

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12-08-2007, 11:53 PM
  #124
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Everything in your post is bull. So-so? I have yet to see one player react well to his method of calling them out. Give me examples, cause Kovalev certainly isn't one. You'd have to be from another planet to think that Carbo calling him out is the reason he's playing better.

Strong leadership is all well and good if your name is Pat Burns because you carry respect and knowledge. When your name is Carbonneau or Tremblay - that could be your death sentence.
Sorry but I'm pretty sure Guy Carbonneau got plenty of respect including Selke and Stanley cups rings.

Kovalev is one, want it or not, the critics by carbo, led the media into more pressure on Kovalev, which might have changed his attitude this summer.

Kovalev's best coach according to him was Mr. Keenan. Get a clue?

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12-08-2007, 11:53 PM
  #125
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But this team isnt playing a 1 man forecheck, they are playing 2-1-2, 1-2-2 hybrid like every others teams.(only the wild and canucks play 1-2-2 these days) It comes down to good execution. And where does execution come from? Talent, passion and effort. I don't think we lack passion, I think the effort is quite all right(most nights), we lack talent.
This team never plays a 2-1-2. Not on purpose anyways.

I don't buy this talent BS because the most effective forechecking line 2 games running is lapierre and kostopoulos' line.

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