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How to be Flamed Less - A Guide to Trade Proposals

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:08 AM
  #26
Frank Drebin
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Great post, but I would rather see the Trade Proposals go to a sub forum away from the rumors board, much like the Polls and Petitions board was moved from NHL talk.

That way the kiddies can go play hockey cards and I don't have to surf through it.

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:20 AM
  #27
Plager05
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It's a research thing. You shouldn't make trade proposals unless you are up on both of the teams involved. Two things you can do to research are.

1. Reads all the hockey articles you can. TSN, ESPN, Here, NHL.com etc. There are tons. A team's local papers are great too if they are free online.

2. Read posts on a team's message board here. It will give you a more personal view on the team you want to learn about.

I'm not suggesting doing all that for each post, but if you are going to be posting trade proposals, you should already be doing those things.

To the people who need to read this. I know what your routine is. After you log in:
1. Go to (TEAM) message board read new posts. Make homer post/flame haters
2. Go to Trade Board look for new posts in threads about rumours/proposals for (TEAM). Make homer post.
3. Go to prospects thread and look for new posts in threads about (TEAM)'s prospects. Make homer post.

It doesn't have to be that way folks, as I, yes I admit I used to make bad trade proposals, have discovered. The other 29 teams in the league besides yours are not controlled by the computer.

All in all if you can't come up with a decent paragraph explaining your reasoning for a trade its a good idea to drop the idea. It has to be more thought out then a for b because team 1 needs defenseman and team b needs a forward.


Last edited by Plager05: 12-09-2007 at 06:28 AM.
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Old
12-09-2007, 06:37 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
If this turns out well, quite possibly. [Which means, if you're thinking of spewing trash here ... don't.]
I believe it, when I see it. The trade board is one of the reason, why new members join & controversial trade proposals generate lot's of traffic. Plus, you have a direct link to the trade board on hockeysfuture.com. All points give me the impression that the situation here won't improve much.

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:39 AM
  #29
Bish Please
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I wish the Lightning could just "opt out" of proposals.

One of my biggest pet peeves is people proposing a 35ish old, average, expensive player for a 25ish old, average, cheap player under the ruse of "veteran leadership".

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:45 AM
  #30
Hasbro
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Another addendum:
  • If you aren't sure about a trade proposal you should probably ask in an open ended fashion.

    i.e. "Is Heywood Jablomi available?"
  • Remember a GM might not get "value" on the deal

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:49 AM
  #31
Fish on The Sand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
i.e. "Is Heywood Jablomi available?"
The answer is no

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:50 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
If this turns out well, quite possibly. [Which means, if you're thinking of spewing trash here ... don't.]
You go to hell! You go to hell and you die!

Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Another "common mistake," don't overrate potential. When looking at a prospect, be sure to factor in not only his upper limit (as most people do) but also the liklihood to reach this potential. Or better yet, try to come up with the "most likely upside."

And a suggestion: have a brief writeup of your team's situation to allow intelligent counterprosals. Include what else your team may offer to balance things. "My team wants to win now, we'd like scoring. We're willing to give up long-term defensemen in because we have extras."

I 2nd the "don't ask for a team's very top prospect/asset." The top asset almost never gets moved.

Addition to quality vs quantity: I'm of the impression that quantity is actually a bad thing. A 1 for 1 deal > a 2 for 1 deal > a 3 for 1 deal. And most of the time, the pieces in a package have a definite heirarchy. One is the centerpiece where the majority of the value should be, then maybe a long term positional replacement, then some filler assets to balance it out (picks go here, they are not centerpieces!).

I really like this thread idea. I was toying with the idea of making something similar, but didn't have the hubrus to claim I knew it all.


Finally I was toying with the idea of proposing a "currency system" for the trade board. I think it should be expressed in terms of a hypothetical 14.5th place team's draft pick. When you list a player, put in parenthesis what you think that player is worth in terms of draft picks. That way when someone from a different team wants to make a counterproposal, they know approximately how much value to include to make it close to what you're expecting. Also, it's easy to tell where the homerism is coming to play.

Example: Person 1: "My team is out of the playoffs and is looking to sell Player X. I'm looking for 3x 1DPs in value (like the Ryan Smyth trade, 3 mid-level 1sts)." Person 2: "I'll offer you my 1st round pick acquired from the league's bottom team and Prospect Y, our team's 1st round pick 2 years ago. Since the pick is likely to be #1 overall, that's 2x 1DP, and Prospect Y is worth 1 DP = 3x 1DP in total value."
Not a bad idea, probably hard to implement some of our mathmaticians would be good on this.

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Old
12-09-2007, 06:51 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
The answer is no
How about Dick Hertz?


Last edited by Hasbro: 12-09-2007 at 07:09 AM.
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Old
12-09-2007, 09:24 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownman View Post
Does it really matter? This isn't the NHL's central registry.
I agree. I don't see why you should have to spend an hour looking up contract status and cap space and everything else just to share an idea.

None of these things happen anyway, so what good does "getting everything right" do?

What needs to happen is for people to become a lot less sensitive. If you don't like reading proposals, don't read them. If you're going to criticize, come up with something a lot better than the increasingly popular "No" or "That's stupid". Put some actual thought into it. If you think the original poster did a bad job, either ignore it, or get your debate on.

But most proposal threads turn into a juvenile mess because of the people who bring themselves to the level of the original poster. Insults, references to glue or crack, and little one-liners the thread would obviously be better without just bring everyone down.

How to be flamed less? Don't flame.

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Old
12-09-2007, 09:39 AM
  #35
It Kills Me
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How about you simplify this:

Rule 1 - Think before you post a proposal.

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Old
12-09-2007, 10:02 AM
  #36
flannelman
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Rather- is there a way to make posters read something like this- before a post? Because if there is a way to do that, perhaps pre-Mod approval (?), we could cut down on a lot of .... crap for lack of a better term- but initially, I do think that this will (hopefully) improve Threads in general.

About Grammar, though: There are some French speaking people on this Board and they are still learning English, or Primarily write in French- so I don't think that they should be completely ostrisized (sp?)

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Old
12-09-2007, 10:02 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
I agree. I don't see why you should have to spend an hour looking up contract status and cap space and everything else just to share an idea.
It takes you <1 min to find that out. Not a big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
If you don't like reading proposals, don't read them.
That's the easy solution for those, who don't really care or don't want to put an effort into changing something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
If you're going to criticize, come up with something a lot better than the increasingly popular "No" or "That's stupid". Put some actual thought into it. If you think the original poster did a bad job, either ignore it, or get your debate on.
If the OP doesn't seem to lot of thought into his post, why should you do it in your post? I agree with you, if that's the case and the OP proposed a good deal and somebody just responds with a smily or some other crap.

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Old
12-09-2007, 10:06 AM
  #38
madpooh
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I would also say just cause there have been bad trades doesn't mean its the rule just the exception.

Your excuse for making a trade cannot be the Thorton, or either of the Luongo trades. Just be happy when they happen but please don't propose them.

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Old
12-09-2007, 10:06 AM
  #39
Seachd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safir View Post
It takes you <1 min to find that out. Not a big problem.
It's also not necessary. Some people seem to think if they make it "realistic" it will actually come true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Safir
If the OP doesn't seem to lot of thought into his post, why should you do it in your post? I agree with you, if that's the case and the OP proposed a good deal and somebody just responds with a smily or some other crap.
Two wrongs make a right? Why just bring the boards down more?

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Old
12-09-2007, 10:44 AM
  #40
Yelnats Puc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator16 View Post
False.
Point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
Then again, these guidlines would have had everyone laughing at a proposed Bertuzzi for Luongo deal years ago....
Those should be looked at as exceptions, not rules. I pretty sure Florida got flamed pretty hard anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plager05 View Post
It's a research thing. You shouldn't make trade proposals unless you are up on both of the teams involved. Two things you can do to research are.

1. Reads all the hockey articles you can. TSN, ESPN, Here, NHL.com etc. There are tons. A team's local papers are great too if they are free online.

2. Read posts on a team's message board here. It will give you a more personal view on the team you want to learn about.

I'm not suggesting doing all that for each post, but if you are going to be posting trade proposals, you should already be doing those things.

To the people who need to read this. I know what your routine is. After you log in:
1. Go to (TEAM) message board read new posts. Make homer post/flame haters
2. Go to Trade Board look for new posts in threads about rumours/proposals for (TEAM). Make homer post.
3. Go to prospects thread and look for new posts in threads about (TEAM)'s prospects. Make homer post.

It doesn't have to be that way folks, as I, yes I admit I used to make bad trade proposals, have discovered. The other 29 teams in the league besides yours are not controlled by the computer.

All in all if you can't come up with a decent paragraph explaining your reasoning for a trade its a good idea to drop the idea. It has to be more thought out then a for b because team 1 needs defenseman and team b needs a forward.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Another addendum:[list][*]If you aren't sure about a trade proposal you should probably ask in an open ended fashion.

i.e. "Is Heywood Jablomi available?"
Fair point.

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Old
12-09-2007, 11:24 AM
  #41
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Remove any offer at all for a young currenty or potential top five player especially if he is the face of the franchise. Absent a situation of major duress you will never get a Crosby Malkin Ovechkin Kopitar and on and on without a major major overpay. Especially for your north of thirty year old player who you are worried about the cap ramifications of because he wants seven to ten million per year for the better part of a decade starting next year.

I just eliminated 99 percent of HF's trade board.

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Old
12-10-2007, 06:55 PM
  #42
flannelman
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Thread Bump.

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Old
12-10-2007, 07:54 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
Then again, these guidlines would have had everyone laughing at a proposed Bertuzzi for Luongo deal years ago....
Well, the guidelines aren't there to make the proposal a reality; but following them will limit the flaming, and provoke a healthy, rational discussion (for the most part)

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Old
12-10-2007, 07:55 PM
  #44
SuburbanRhythm
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Only thing I don't believe I saw in there...is the famous "The following players are untouchable..." and then list every player on the roster and draft pick in the last 7 years, save for those underperforming/overpaid players you'd love for your team to dump.

I guess falls partially under both Quantity = Quality and contract status.

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Old
12-10-2007, 09:57 PM
  #45
mmitchell19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLeprechaun View Post
...
1) Spelling and Grammar
Take some time to make your post presentable; check to make sure it's uses proper punctuation, capitals where necessary, and that the words are spelled right.
...

Irony...sweet irony.

Great post. I don't make trade proposals because:

a) I only know enough about the Blues to have a semi-intelligent point of view; and

b) I would fall into the "homer" trap every time, I'm afraid.

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Old
12-10-2007, 11:26 PM
  #46
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I don't get all the complaining and whining about trade proposals. This is just a message board. This is all make believe.

When someone posts a proposal, it does not mean it is actually going to happen. Most of the time these proposals I see come from a kid who wants their favorite player on their favorite team, so they make a proposal on a message board imagining that it could actually happen. Whats so wrong with that? If you don't like the proposal, ignore it. There is no need to insult or flame the person for making a “fantasy” trade. If everyone would just calm down and use their own common sense to just move on then there would be no need for a sticky on how to make a correct fantasy trade proposal. Let people post what they want. If you don't agree, politely let them know or leave the thread and let them have their fantasy. It does not hurt anyone. Getting mad over an imaginary hockey trade is just plain silly. None of this is real.

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Old
12-10-2007, 11:58 PM
  #47
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Also take in account of the team and how it is built and how underrated some players are really.

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Old
12-11-2007, 12:06 AM
  #48
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A quick heads up for anyone making a trade proposal... If another team offers you "ryder, halak and a 2nd" don't take it seriously.

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Old
12-11-2007, 06:36 AM
  #49
Yelnats Puc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmitchell19 View Post
Irony...sweet irony.




Yeah... That's about all I have to say on that...

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Old
12-11-2007, 07:23 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
And a suggestion: have a brief writeup of your team's situation to allow intelligent counterprosals. Include what else your team may offer to balance things. "My team wants to win now, we'd like scoring. We're willing to give up long-term defensemen in because we have extras."
That would fall under the "team needs" category.

Quote:
Addition to quality vs quantity: I'm of the impression that quantity is actually a bad thing. A 1 for 1 deal > a 2 for 1 deal > a 3 for 1 deal. And most of the time, the pieces in a package have a definite heirarchy. One is the centerpiece where the majority of the value should be, then maybe a long term positional replacement, then some filler assets to balance it out (picks go here, they are not centerpieces!).
1) This depends entirely on the "team needs" issue. If a team is trading a "Star Player" for the sole purpose of generating the depth to form a more balanced team(see the Thornton deal) then quanity is an important factor in the deal.

2) In the real world Draft Picks can ABSOLUTELY be used as the centerpeices to deals; and they typically have more value than an already drafted prospect does(teams generally trust their own Scouting staff more than those of other teams). Especially in the case of 1st round picks(see the Forsberg, Guerin, Weight, Tkachuk, Smyth and Witt deals).

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