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01-20-2004, 10:34 AM
  #1
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X Leaf Markov a Flyer

http://www.tsn.ca/NHL/news_story.asp...91&hubName=nhl

HOW DOES PHILLY KEEP LOADING UP!

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01-20-2004, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilmour's Way
I would have loved to seen Toronto get Markov - he would have fit in perfect. Kinda funny because Clarke didn't want Markov included in the Lindros trade he insisted on Kaberle.

Although this past wkend was not a true representation on how the leafs are doing it is clear that the leafs will need to add more players if they want to beat the flyers. In addition it is very important that the leafs finish ahead of Ott so they do not have to play the flyers.

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01-20-2004, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilmour's Way
Because they have a GM who will do whatever he thinks it will take to win. As big a Tool as Clarke is you have to give him credit for trying, much the same as the AVS. Markov is a guy who would have been perfect here but instead the Flyers, who we always have trouble with, will be that much tougher to play.

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01-20-2004, 11:40 AM
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It was a move Philly had to make, get a guy who likely enjoys playing Toronto, and bring him to a team that will play Toronto in the playoffs most likely. Good move by Philly.

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01-20-2004, 11:44 AM
  #5
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does this pave the way for an oniell deal ?

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01-20-2004, 11:44 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
Because they have a GM who will do whatever he thinks it will take to win. As big a Tool as Clarke is you have to give him credit for trying, much the same as the AVS. Markov is a guy who would have been perfect here but instead the Flyers, who we always have trouble with, will be that much tougher to play.
BUT LOOK at the Value for a young Defenseman on a team like Carolina who is rebuilding .....Toronto could not have come close to offering anything off the Roster that would compare to Williams...

Nik Antropov is the only player similar in age yet with all his injuries I WOULD NEVER trade Williams for him straight up from a Philly point of view..

So I hope this slows down all those ridiculous prospects/picks trade offers for good young players ...Here what I am saying SLUGGO .....

The bar just got raised big time and if Markov can get you Justin Williams than the price for Brewer and Gonchar etc just went thru the roof...


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01-20-2004, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by p.l.f.
does this pave the way for an oniell deal ?
Canes shop O'Neill
Will Carolina sniper join old pal Roberts on Leafs? Nolan will wear protective visor

when he returns


MARK ZWOLINSKI
SPORTS REPORTER

According to the NHL rumour mill, the Carolina Hurricanes are on the verge of trading Jeff O'Neill, and the Toronto Maple Leafs could be the destination.

Toronto GM John Ferguson Jr. was in London, for the CHL Top Prospects skills competition last night, and couldn't immediately be reached for comment.

It's the first time O'Neill's name has been linked to the Leafs.

In November, the Leafs were said to be interested in Islanders captain Mike Peca, but the rumour quickly faded.

O'Neill, a King City native, is friends with the Leafs' Gary Roberts dating back to Roberts' days in Carolina.

The Hurricanes are in 13th spot in the NHL Eastern Conference, and could be looking to dump salary.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1044442957278

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01-20-2004, 12:28 PM
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antropov and hedin for oneill

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01-20-2004, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f.
antropov and hedin for oneill
Hedin is kind of a hard guy to figure out what his value is at the current time...based on his age and currently playing in the NHL etc.

I would be curious to see how other GM value him.....

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01-20-2004, 01:17 PM
  #10
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Messenger, Sorry to say but you're clearly out to lunch on this one and all the facts prove it. Antropov is clearly in the class of a Williams and I'll simply show you...

Antropov has his history of injury troubles and has never played a full season and that's clearly correct but Williams also has a injury history and has never played a full NHL season so that arguments dies right there.

Both are/were considered top young players with a lot of potential but neither has put up the numbers to prove it and Williams has done no improving at all since the 2001-2002 season.

In Williams rookie season he only played 63 games because of nagging injuries and managed 12 goals, 13 assists and 25 points.

In Williams second season he played a total of 75 games. He managed to rack up 17 goals, 23 assists and 40 points. Should be noted production wise this was his best year.

In Williams third season he only managed to play 41 games because a assortment of injuries. He managed 8 goals, 16 assists and 24 points.

This season Williams has managed to play all of the games so far with 47 but has managed little point wise. He's produced 6 goals, 20 assists and 26 points. Williams is on pace if he plays all 82 games is 10 goals, 35 assists and 45 points. (Should be noted Antropov has already managed to rack up 45 points in a single season)

Williams was drafted in the first round (28) in the 2000 draft and Antropov was drafted in the first round (10) in the 1998 draft.

So Williams numbers don't show it his draft position does not show it so how exactly Williams so far ahead and better then Antropov?

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01-20-2004, 01:46 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage
Messenger, Sorry to say but you're clearly out to lunch on this one and all the facts prove it. Antropov is clearly in the class of a Williams and I'll simply show you...

Antropov has his history of injury troubles and has never played a full season and that's clearly correct but Williams also has a injury history and has never played a full NHL season so that arguments dies right there.

Both are/were considered top young players with a lot of potential but neither has put up the numbers to prove it and Williams has done no improving at all since the 2001-2002 season.

In Williams rookie season he only played 63 games because of nagging injuries and managed 12 goals, 13 assists and 25 points.

In Williams second season he played a total of 75 games. He managed to rack up 17 goals, 23 assists and 40 points. Should be noted production wise this was his best year.

In Williams third season he only managed to play 41 games because a assortment of injuries. He managed 8 goals, 16 assists and 24 points.

This season Williams has managed to play all of the games so far with 47 but has managed little point wise. He's produced 6 goals, 20 assists and 26 points. Williams is on pace if he plays all 82 games is 10 goals, 35 assists and 45 points. (Should be noted Antropov has already managed to rack up 45 points in a single season)

Williams was drafted in the first round (28) in the 2000 draft and Antropov was drafted in the first round (10) in the 1998 draft.

So Williams numbers don't show it his draft position does not show it so how exactly Williams so far ahead and better then Antropov?
Personal opinion...

I am a big Antropov fan, but I would be ecstatic If I could trade him straight up for Justin Williams... I think Williams potential is greater ...Sure he has missed some games, one season he broke an ankle when he got hit by his own man on the powerplay ...That could happen to any player... and the other time he was out with MONO.... so not really anything in his past to say INJURY PRONE...While Antropov also has some great on ICE Vision and physical attributes ...the injury prone tag certainly follows him around and he has both Knee's and Shoulders rebuilt already ...he is more like the BIONIC BOY in this case...

I thought in the playoffs last year that Justin Williams was one of the most dangerous players in the Leaf Series..

Antropov turns 24 in a month and has 107 points ....Justin Williams is just 22 now.. almost 2 years younger than Nik and has 115 points.. and both have virtually played the same amount of NHL games...

So in 2 years where will Williams be when he is Antropovs age 24 and how many more injuries will Nik have in that 2 year span...

Antropov while he has loads of potential just hasn't proved reliable when the need and is always injured and as a result ..... I think that Toronto would be wise to trade him for a player now ...who does not have an injury history and can be depended on come playoff time..

Also I ask you this ...Would you have traded either Antropov or Williams (had he been a Leaf) straight up for Markov??????

I wouldn't have and that was the point of my post that I think that Philly Overpaid for Markov and had JFJ traded Nik for Markov I would have been disappointed as well.......

and the other point was that to get players often you have to part with Roster players to do it and not just prospects and picks as other Leaf Fans Hope...That is IMO why Fergy is not making trades as he is not willing to make his legacy a Antropov for Markov trade and go done some day as a terrible GM when Antropov becomes a force in the NHL ...IF HE DOES...

bottom line if I am Carolina and I am offered Antropov or Justin Williams straight up for Markov I take Williams ...That's just my opinion It would be interesting to see what others think...

and if it is prospects and picks like Toronto fans where offering like Bell and 3rd for Markov or Justin Williams which one would you take????

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01-20-2004, 01:47 PM
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The Messenger - Justin Williams IS a prospect. The guy hasn't scored a goal since Dec. 3rd. Hes got a lot of potential, but guess what? Hes not there yet, and he might not get there. Like, oh I dunno. An Alexander Steen? The Flyers moved Williams becaues they got Comrie, you take that trade back and Williams doesn't go anywhere. The Flyers have a lot of foward in their earlier 20's, more then just about every team making a cup run (with the excpetion of the Sens). You're saying the Williams trades sets a "bar", well the Comrie one sets a bar as well.

If you use O'Neill as your example, all the teams that would be interested are ones in the cup hunt, and (like the Leafs) those teams won't want to add by subtraction.

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01-20-2004, 02:01 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
The Messenger - Justin Williams IS a prospect. The guy hasn't scored a goal since Dec. 3rd. Hes got a lot of potential, but guess what? Hes not there yet, and he might not get there. Like, oh I dunno. An Alexander Steen? The Flyers moved Williams becaues they got Comrie, you take that trade back and Williams doesn't go anywhere. The Flyers have a lot of foward in their earlier 20's, more then just about every team making a cup run (with the excpetion of the Sens). You're saying the Williams trades sets a "bar", well the Comrie one sets a bar as well.

If you use O'Neill as your example, all the teams that would be interested are ones in the cup hunt, and (like the Leafs) those teams won't want to add by subtraction.
You are Clueless....

You had better define Prospect because this is Williams 4th season in the NHL already... and this trade Helps Carolina immediately .....Steen is playing in the SEL and that does not help CAROLINA NOW....THEY WANTED to trade a Dman for an offensive forward just like GM Rutherford said ....AND THEY DID MORON ...no matter how you twist it... Williams is not longer a prospect trying to make the NHL ... he is in his 4th season now and has more than proved that he can play in the Big leagues... Steen hasn't proved a thing.... What is a roster player to you than because Nik Antropov has player just as many games as Williams .. Is he still a Leaf prospect or a roster player with upward potential???.

Do you try to make yourself look stupid or does it come natural to you??

You are the olny idiot that thinks the Comrie trade should be used as an example.... He was sitting out NO value to EDMONTON this year... Edmonton didn't really want to send him to a Western team if he could help it... and perferred to ship him to the East... Comrie is a real little guy and not really suited for the BIG STRONG MEAN Eastern conference and the best they could get for NOTHING essentially because that is what Comrie was doing practicing with his juniour team... No other team thought Comrie was worth more and Edmonton took the best offer they could get...

Now a team WAY out of playoff contention ..looking to rebuild trades a defensive tough as nails dman for Justin Williams and you don't think that raises the bar on Brewer and Hamrlik and Gonchar... Wake up man..


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01-20-2004, 02:03 PM
  #14
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Messenger you've got a few errors in your post. First off Antropov has neither of his shoulders rebuilt he simply has had both seperated in the past. His knees have both been rebuilt but doctors would argue what he went through would infact make his knees stronger once he got used to them.

When you bring up there career number and ages you forget to mention Antropov spent a season and a half on the rock to get used to the rebuilt knees.

You also ask me who would I trade and my honest answer is simply Williams. He doesn't have the on ice vision or physical atributes of Antropov which just adds another element to his game that Williams does not have and as you said they're both close satistically offensively. (Side note: I wouldn't want Markov back with the people he was rumored to be hanging around with anyway)

The obvious answer to your last question is Williams but fact is if Ferguson was interested in Markov he would've been offering Nik but like I said I wouldn't want him back and I'm pretty confident in saying Quinn is not retarded and told Ferguson just what type of people Markov was hanging around here.


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01-20-2004, 02:28 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Savage
Messenger you've got a few errors in your post. First off Antropov has neither of his shoulders rebuilt he simply has had both seperated in the past. His knees have both been rebuilt but doctors would argue what he went through would infact make his knees stronger once he got used to them.

When you bring up there career number and ages you forget to mention Antropov spent a season and a half on the rock to get used to the rebuilt knees.

You also ask me who would I trade and my honest answer is simply Williams. He doesn't have the on ice vision or physical atributes of Antropov which just adds another element to his game that Williams does not have and as you said they're both close satistically offensively. (Side note: I wouldn't want Markov back with the people he was rumored to be hanging around with anyway)

The obvious answer to your last question is Williams but fact is if Ferguson was interested in Markov he would've been offering Nik but like I said I wouldn't want him back and I'm pretty confident in saying Quinn is not retarded and told Ferguson just what type of people Markov was hanging around here.
Okay ....but you are arguing that 2 rebuilt Knee's with MCL And ACL is not serious injury history and with Nik who already has a lack of foot speed ..that can't help... and as you said Nik has had both his shoulders separated already and take it from me since I have had both mine separated that once it happens it is just a matter or time before he will go under the knife and have the ligaments shortened or any time Nik hits a guy, and he is physical there is a chance that the shoulder pops out again and then he will miss more time... Just watch you will see before the season is out Nik will be on the sidelines again with Shoulder injuries... Mark my words..

and I am not quite sure how Antropov being out of the league recovering or playing on the Rock supports your agruement that Antropov is not injury prone and the fact the the injuries he has had is his young career have been serious and as a result caries the inury prome tag... while Williams missed 20 games with MONO not really a career threatening illness.. IMO...

but again I think you are a little off topic in that I WOULD NOT TRADE ...either of the players Antropov or Williams for Markov... NEITHER ... I feel both is an over payment IMO for Markov..... That is the point...

and I too loved Dani Markov's heart and grit when he was a Leaf...but I too would not want him back as his off ice problems and back problems could also reacure..and I am a firm believer in that you should always look forward and bin there don that theory has be tested and players that where traded away like Markov and Jason Smith should not be bought back...There are plenty of other players in the NHL that you simply don't have to only rely on players that USED TO BE LEAFS to be succesful.....

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01-20-2004, 03:07 PM
  #16
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What I sort of like about this trade from a Leafs point of view is that it takes away one of Philly's small fast players from their lineup. These guys have killed us on foot races and on rushes etc. Markov is a great defenseman, but they're missing Desjardins...

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01-20-2004, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen
What I sort of like about this trade from a Leafs point of view is that it takes away one of Philly's small fast players from their lineup. These guys have killed us on foot races and on rushes etc. Markov is a great defenseman, but they're missing Desjardins...
I agree exactly that Williams speed in last years playoffs gave the leafs slower older dman fits...

Speed is also what is need to break a trap like NJ when you dump it in you have to have the players that can win the race to the puck...

I like Markov as well and think he is a warrior but with all the other dman Philly has how many minutes realistically will he play and when all are healthy for the playoffs, that will even be less as Philly acquired him for short term help and will really miss Williams come playoff time.. I think this trade actually helps Toronto in a head-to-head matchup with Philly..

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01-20-2004, 04:27 PM
  #18
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We gave up Markov for Reichel and Renberg think we could give them back for Danny, thanks Pat Quinn for making me the only one on this board to actually see a Stanley Cup winner in their lifetime.

Why do we need defencemen because the worst GM in history gave away Jason Smith, Danny Markov, and Brian Berard. And brought in Dave Manson, Jurki Lumme, Ric Jackman. Thanks Pat that's why we have no chance enjoy your millions in Vancouver.

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01-20-2004, 04:41 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Red Horner
We gave up Markov for Reichel and Renberg think we could give them back for Danny, thanks Pat Quinn for making me the only one on this board to actually see a Stanley Cup winner in their lifetime.

Why do we need defencemen because the worst GM in history gave away Jason Smith, Danny Markov, and Brian Berard. And brought in Dave Manson, Jurki Lumme, Ric Jackman. Thanks Pat that's why we have no chance enjoy your millions in Vancouver.

We gave up markov for Green and Reichel. Markov had to be traded. It was for his own good. He had developed a lifestyle that was either going to kill him or kill his career.

As for Berard, Quinn never gave him away. Berard said he was retired so the Leafs didn't qualify him. If you want to blmae anyone blame Berard for screwing over the franchise that took such good care of him.

Geez, Red, I thought you'd know all this. Either that or once again you're trying to skew things. And that routine of claiming to be old is getting rather tiresome.

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01-20-2004, 04:53 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by 50 Mission Cap
We gave up markov for Green and Reichel. Markov had to be traded. It was for his own good. He had developed a lifestyle that was either going to kill him or kill his career.

As for Berard, Quinn never gave him away. Berard said he was retired so the Leafs didn't qualify him. If you want to blmae anyone blame Berard for screwing over the franchise that took such good care of him.

Geez, Red, I thought you'd know all this. Either that or once again you're trying to skew things. And that routine of claiming to be old is getting rather tiresome.
Right

& it was Berezin for Renberg so that has no part of Markov...

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01-20-2004, 05:23 PM
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You had better define Prospect because this is Williams 4th season in the NHL already
The value of Williams comes from what he COULD turn into, not what he brings to team right now. If he peaks at 40 points a season the Canes will be VERY disapointed. Theres no difference between a player like Williams and a prospect who WILL play in the NHL like Steen. And I wouldn't give Antropov any more value (Trade wise) then Steen either, his value also comes fromw hat he COULD turn into.

Quote:
raises the bar on Brewer and Hamrlik and Gonchar
Not one bit because most teams going for a cup don't have as much young fowards as the Flyers do. The Wings (for example) won't give up Datysuk or Zetterberg for a vet. And Williams and Hudler havn't even played a season and won't get any kind of deal done. Look at the 3 major trades so far this season.

1) Konowalchuk for Jonas Johansson and picks. A vet foward goes for a solid prospect and draft picks (sorry, not sure which picks).

2) Comrie for Woywitka, first round and third round. A young, skilled foward (who could have gotten the Oilers a roster player) goes for a good prospect and two draft picks. Lowe also said that he would only move Comrie when the deal would help the Oilers win, Woywitka and picks don't do that.

3) Markov for Williams. A vet defenseman is traded for a young, 22 year old foward who's value is what he COULD do for the Canes, not what he WILL do for them, if you are talking about top prospects like a Steen, not much difference.

If you want to talk about a bar being set look at the deals that have happened - two out of the three have seen vet players (all in their primes, Konowalchuk near the end) go to contender's for picks and prospects, and the other one still saw a vet move but he went for a current NHLer, though one whos value is in his potential (like a prospect). Thats your "bar". Vet players, in their prime, going for picks, top prospects and in one case, an NHLer who's value is still in his potential. That means (according to the bar) the leafs draft picks, Colaiacovo, Steen, Tellqvist, and Antropov are who/what they could trade, and a return like O'Neill for those players is where the "bar" is set. Thats your "bar"

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01-20-2004, 05:44 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
The value of Williams comes from what he COULD turn into, not what he brings to team right now. If he peaks at 40 points a season the Canes will be VERY disapointed. Theres no difference between a player like Williams and a prospect who WILL play in the NHL like Steen. And I wouldn't give Antropov any more value (Trade wise) then Steen either, his value also comes fromw hat he COULD turn into.



Not one bit because most teams going for a cup don't have as much young fowards as the Flyers do. The Wings (for example) won't give up Datysuk or Zetterberg for a vet. And Williams and Hudler havn't even played a season and won't get any kind of deal done. Look at the 3 major trades so far this season.

1) Konowalchuk for Jonas Johansson and picks. A vet foward goes for a solid prospect and draft picks (sorry, not sure which picks).

2) Comrie for Woywitka, first round and third round. A young, skilled foward (who could have gotten the Oilers a roster player) goes for a good prospect and two draft picks. Lowe also said that he would only move Comrie when the deal would help the Oilers win, Woywitka and picks don't do that.

3) Markov for Williams. A vet defenseman is traded for a young, 22 year old foward who's value is what he COULD do for the Canes, not what he WILL do for them, if you are talking about top prospects like a Steen, not much difference.

If you want to talk about a bar being set look at the deals that have happened - two out of the three have seen vet players (all in their primes, Konowalchuk near the end) go to contender's for picks and prospects, and the other one still saw a vet move but he went for a current NHLer, though one whos value is in his potential (like a prospect). Thats your "bar". Vet players, in their prime, going for picks, top prospects and in one case, an NHLer who's value is still in his potential. That means (according to the bar) the leafs draft picks, Colaiacovo, Steen, Tellqvist, and Antropov are who/what they could trade, and a return like O'Neill for those players is where the "bar" is set. Thats your "bar"
Where do you get your info from??

"And Williams (assuming you mean wings Jason Williams here) and Hudler havn't even played a season and won't get any kind of deal done. " ....Haven't both these players played more games than Steen in the NHL??? and if they won't get a deal done what can that say for a kid playing in the SEL....(SWEDISH ELITE LEAGUE)..

So you think Hudler or Williams = Little Value
&
Justin Williams = Alex Steen in value in the Markov trade..

Look at the 3 major trades so far this season.

You do know it was Konowalchuk for Bates Battaglia 29 years old and former 1st round pick (Jonas Johansson) RIGHT ???? or in your world was the trade different...or are you calling Battaglia picks in your previous statement...

How are you going to talk you way out of that blunder???

and only in your world you confuse the words POTENTIAL and PROSPECT and somehow feel that these two words mean the same thing ...Justin Williams has played over 225 games in the NHL ...what his upward POTENTIAL or points is doesn't determine if he is a prospect maybe if you used the word PROJECT ... but not prospect...Knowledgeable people would call him a young ROSTER player with good potential....

So when a 27 year old dman gets traded for a 22 year old forward with over 200 nhl games & 17 playoff games ...I DON'T CALL it a trade of prospects or picks ... but that just me... on your Planet I am not sure what is going on..


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01-20-2004, 06:16 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by mondoman
Ya know what dude - maybe not the best trade but hey, you're talking about TWO wingers who see a lot of playing time with us now, if we still had markov we'd have to replace them.
Niether has done zip for us especially in the playoffs, and the Money we pay Riechel and Renberg about 6 million we could have signed much better players over the last three summers and still had Markov.

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01-20-2004, 06:24 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Red Horner
Niether has done zip for us especially in the playoffs, and the Money we pay Riechel and Renberg about 6 million we could have signed much better players over the last three summers and still had Markov.
Berezin was traded for Renberg MAN!!!!!

What does that have to do with Markov????

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01-20-2004, 08:37 PM
  #25
sluggo*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,430
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Quote:
So you think Hudler or Williams = Little Value
No, Hudler or Williams don't = more value then an Alex Steen.

You're right, I forgot about Battaglia, however a major part of that deal was the prospect, and Johansson is a very good prospect, and I've seen reports that say with him its not if but when he plays in the NHL.

Quote:
Knowledgeable people would call him a young ROSTER player with good potential
Knowledgable people understand that Williams trade value comes from his POTENTIAL, not what he brings to the table now, which puts him on the same level as a teams top prospect when it comes to trades. We're not talking about trading Kyle Wellwood who may not make the NHL, Steen WILL play in the NHL, its shown that hes good enough. And as we've seen this year vet roster players are going to contending teams for, mostly, picks and prospects.

Quote:
Berezin was traded for Renberg
Terrible trade.

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