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Old
01-20-2004, 10:33 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by sluggo
You're right, I forgot about Battaglia, however a major part of that deal was the prospect, and Johansson is a very good prospect, and I've seen reports that say with him its not if but when he plays in the NHL..
WRONG WRONG WRONG as usual...

This was all about Battaglia for Konowalchuk and Jonas was the throw in just like the 3rd round pick was...

This is what Pierre lacroix said in the Denver post after the trade...

Jonas Johansson's rights traded to the Caps
Denver Post
[10/24/2003]

Jonas Johansson's righs have been traded from the Colorado Avalanche to the Washington Capitals.

Colorado received 30-year old left wing Steve Konowalchuk and a third-round draft choice in 2004 for Johansson's rights and Bates Battaglia.

Johansson who had a strong rookie campaign with Kamloops in the WHL last season has somewhat struggled this season. After 13 games played Johansson stands at 4 goals and 5 assists which is kind of modest considering he averaged more than a point per game last season.

"Johansson came to two camps, got an injury, and the overall consensus of our group was that there is a risk factor with him. We acquired a third-round pick in this deal, and we would have lost him for nothing. We were not going to sign him. That was our decision."

Those were the words of Pierre Lacroix commenting the deal.

source: www.denverpost.com

You can find coments about Jonas in this thread...
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...onas+Johansson

LACROIX was not even going to sign him ....That doesnt sound like a can't miss prospect....

and Jonas is just about to turn 20 in a few months and is playing terrible and struggling mightily in the WHL..

Here are his stats..
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisp...id%5B%5D=62723

28 points as an Overage player to be ....That's terrible when you compare that to other players... Our young Jeremy Williams is tearing up the WHL and Jonas is a bust in the WHL so SURE FIRE NHLER is pure crap.....

So like usual you are completely wrong again ....

NEXT .....


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01-20-2004, 10:59 PM
  #27
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We acquired a third-round pick in this deal, and we would have lost him for nothing. We were not going to sign him. That was our decision
ya, its not like GM's ever put spins on trades to make it look like they come out looking better they would otherwise, what GM's say can never be taken at face value. I mean Clark said they had no interest in Comrie at all.

And again, Battaglia is a younger player with potential. Not as much as a Williams (and he probably won't live up to it), but Konowaluk isn't a top player either. And the Caps are hoping he turns into a better player then he is. All three major trades this year have seen vets go for young players with potential, the Williams deal included. Trade value wise a player like Steen is on pretty much the same level as Williams (no, he hasn't playedin the NHL, so a pick would might have ot be thrown in) and it doesn't "set a bar" that prices the Leafs out of deals.

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01-20-2004, 11:45 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
ya, its not like GM's ever put spins on trades to make it look like they come out looking better they would otherwise, what GM's say can never be taken at face value. I mean Clark said they had no interest in Comrie at all.

And again, Battaglia is a younger player with potential. Not as much as a Williams (and he probably won't live up to it), but Konowaluk isn't a top player either. And the Caps are hoping he turns into a better player then he is. All three major trades this year have seen vets go for young players with potential, the Williams deal included. Trade value wise a player like Steen is on pretty much the same level as Williams (no, he hasn't playedin the NHL, so a pick would might have ot be thrown in) and it doesn't "set a bar" that prices the Leafs out of deals.
You had better give up while your WAY WAY WAY Behind...

You describe Bates as younger player with Potential ....Dude he is 29 years old played a total or nearly 500 NHL games and playoffs .... he has a total of 67 regular season goals ....WHEN IS THIS POTENTIAL going to come out you are talking about???... and what is your definition of younger UNDER 30?? ....

Then you say something STUPID like "All three major trades this year have seen vets go for young players with potential"

Mike Comrie in your opinion is a VET ...since Woywitka and the pick are not and HE IS 23, just a year older than Williams and has played less NHL GAMES then Williams yet Williams is a prospect or younger player in your own words and Comrie is a vet... Thats just plain stupid...

then

Bates Batttaglia is 29 and player more NHL games than Comrie and Williams put together.. but he is younger with potential.. while Dani Markov is 27 two years younger than Bates and played less than 100 games less as well but Markov is a Vet ...

You have the most screwed up ranking /wording theories I have ever seen in my LIFE....or you have completely lost all sense reason and logic.....

lets see if I have this right ..

Battaglia is younger Prospect at 29
Comrie is a VET and 23
Williams in a PROPSPECT at 22
Markov is a VET at 27

Yeah that makes a lot of sense....
.................................................. .........................................

Then all papers today and the past few days say that Rutherford is willing to trade a DMAN for IMMEDIATE NHL offensive help for his forwards ....Which Justin Williams is and he played played tonight for Carolina.. HOW IN THE HELL could Steen and a pick help the Huricanes this year??? .... That is just a absolutely CLUELESS MORONIC Statement....

Have you read any of the reports on the trade today or heard Rutherford press conference.... Good Grief ....

FROM TSN REPORT

Desperate to fix a struggling offence, the Carolina Hurricanes acquired right wing Justin Williams from the Philadelphia Flyers for defenceman Danny Markov on Tuesday.

Rutherford said the Hurricanes may make more moves to strengthen their offence.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=68891

Do you understand any of that???

How much clearer can it be .... a prospect playing in Europe can not help THIS YEAR..

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STEEN'S VALUE ...If a team in looking at RIGHT NOW not the FUTURE, then all the Steens in Sweden are not going to get the deal done..

In another report today in regards to O'Neill possible trade ....Rutherford says..

Rutherford told reporters on Monday that he would try to "salvage" the season and would like to change his "mix of forwards".

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=68881&hubName=

EXPLAIN TO ME IN SLUGGO-ISM how you interperet that to mean that he is looking for DRAFT PICKS OR UNSIGNED PROSPECTS ... Sure they may be thrown into the Deal but not be the key and it will take ROSTER players.....

This is so simple yet you never understand anything.....


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01-20-2004, 11:55 PM
  #29
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Mike Comrie in yout opinion is a VET ...since Woywitka and the pick are not and HE IS 23 just a year older than Williams and has played less NHL GAMES then Williams yet Williams is a prospect in your own words and Comrie is a vet... Thats just plain stupid
In the Comrie/Woywitk trade who has NHL experience? Whos going to produce better right now? Comrie. He's a steady producer who will (and is) help the Flyers NOW. Williams ISN'T a steady producer and his value is in the future, not now, while Comrie has value now and in the future. Markov is a vet who will help NOW. Both trades see help for right NOW going for guys who will help LATER. EVERY tradet his year has been about that - thats your bar and the Williams trade doesn't "price" the Leafs out of the trade market.

Quote:
Rutherford told reporters on Monday that he would try to "salvage" the season and would like to change his "mix of forwards".
And hes going to "salvage" the season by getting a foward who hasn't scored since Dec 1? Read between the lines dude.

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01-21-2004, 12:24 AM
  #30
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I don't think 26 points this season would put him behind many of the Canes forwards...Justin Williams isn't a prospect anymore. He's played in one of the most gruelling Playoff Series in NHL History, he's become a young up and comer...hasn't by any means peaked. Those 26 points this season are also with assorted linemates and minimal powerplay chances. I like the trade as it gives Justin Williams a chance to play more and perhaps be more of a leader...Markov will help us now and when everyones healthy, we'll be deep on the blueline...not all bad. Oh and I don't think Bob Clarke is done wheeling by a long shot. This trade has left a hole up front and my guess is that it gets addressed before the deadline.

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01-21-2004, 12:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Gilmour's Way

They are willing to trade young players and spending money is not a problem. Scouting has been good. Tannenbaum has no interest in spending the money philly can, or else the teachers will fire him..

To set the record straight Mike Smith traded away Jason Smith, Quinn traded for McCabe gave up Karpovetsev, traded away Yuskevich for Svehla, Aquired Berg for 2nd round and Mair, Jackman for (Plymouth Jr winger) Berard left due to retirement.

Developed Kaberle, Markov Berg and Yushkie (who sucked before Quinn). He has done a good job with the d-man. I can't remember the last coach who developed d men, wait yes i do Red Kelly developed Salming and Turnbull. Pat has quite a good record.


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01-21-2004, 01:00 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
In the Comrie/Woywitk trade who has NHL experience? Whos going to produce better right now? Comrie. He's a steady producer who will (and is) help the Flyers NOW. Williams ISN'T a steady producer and his value is in the future, not now, while Comrie has value now and in the future. Markov is a vet who will help NOW. Both trades see help for right NOW going for guys who will help LATER. EVERY tradet his year has been about that - thats your bar and the Williams trade doesn't "price" the Leafs out of the trade market.



And hes going to "salvage" the season by getting a foward who hasn't scored since Dec 1? Read between the lines dude.
You have the most screwed up logic the World has ever seen...

Comrie is helping now ...but Williams will help in the future ...but they are just 26 NHL points apart counting this year and Williams in fact has more experience .... WOW so that is where you draw the line..

Lets put this in other terms for you... If Willaims had been traded to Toronto he currently has 26 points and Leafs 2nd and 3rd Leading Scorers Nolan and Roberts have 28.... So Justin Williams would be just a couple of points behind or he would be the 2nd highest scorers behind Sundin.... but of course he is a prospect to you..

I get it the younger player in each trade is the prospect... Lucky Markov never got traded to Edmonton for Comrie because then the Comrie would have been the PROSPECT in the trade... since he is younger... or lucky none of them got traded for Battaglia then Markov, Comrie and Williams would be prospect... CLOSE ONE...

I hope NYR dont trade Mark Messier at the trade deadline for Mats Sundin ... I would hate for Sundin to be a younger player with potential or as you call them prospects in that trade.....

and read between the lines ....WHAT F'ING LINES.... SALVAGE THE SEASON ...means that they are trying to make the playoffs and are just 8 points out of a playoff spot behind the Islanders that are currently in 8th in the East.. and there is just a little under 1/2 the season to go... Just because a player has not scored in a while ...O'Neill has struggled all year and until the past week had 5 goals on the season .... How is that helping Carolina.. ????

I didn't also say that Toronto was getting O'Neill as your post seems to imply.. I am predicting that Carolina gets a better offer and trades O'Neill elsewhere..

I didn't report Antropov ...TSN did... I am the one that keeps saying that Toronto does not have what it takes to get these players.... and that continues to be my stance..

I also believe that TORONTO's biggest need is Defense and if they are going to trade Antropov or Steen or Colaiacovo or 1st pick then it should be to fill a real NEED and not a WANT as O'Neill is ....

. and the rumour was Antropov and 1st for O'Neill so the pick might make up for the goal difference as Nik has 3 less goals but has played 21 less games than O'Neill and is over 4 years younger and makes well below 1/2 of O'Neill's salary...

Rutherford's Quote

Prior to Tuesday's game, Carolina was next to last in the Southeast Division and had scored just 86 goals, by far the NHL low.

"Obviously there's not the right mix right now," Rutherford said. "And we have to do something to change that."

Williams, a 22-year-old native of Cobourg, Ont., was a first-round draft pick of the Flyers in 2000. He had six goals and 20 assists in 47 games with the Flyers this season.

Rutherford said the Hurricanes may make more moves to strengthen their offence.


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01-21-2004, 01:10 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
They are willing to trade young players and spending money is not a problem. Scouting has been good. Tannenbaum has no interest in spending the money philly can, or else the teachers will fire him..

To set the record straight Mike Smith traded away Jason Smith, Quinn traded for McCabe gave up Karpovetsev, traded away Yuskevich for Svehla, Aquired Berg for 2nd round and Mair, Jackman for (Plymouth Jr winger) Berard left due to retirement.

Developed Kaberle, Markov Berg and Yushkie (who sucked before Quinn). He has done a good job with the d-man. I can't remember the last coach who developed d men, wait yes i do Red Kelly developed Salming and Turnbull. Pat has quite a good record.
Speaking of Red Kelly developing Dman .....

INTERSTING fact Red Kelly played 13 years in the NHL with Detroit as a Dman and was traded to Toronto in 1959-60 and was immediately made into a center ice man ...by Punch Imlach and went on to win 3 cups with TO centering its second line after never playing a minute at forward his entire career before the trade....

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01-21-2004, 01:40 AM
  #34
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WOW so that is where you draw the line
Yes, one is steady, one isn't and his value comes from his potential. Thats a big difference.

Quote:
WHAT F'ING LINES.... SALVAGE THE SEASON ...means that they are trying to make the playoffs and are just 8 points out of a playoff spot behind the Islanders that are currently in 8th in the East.. and there is just a little under 1/2 the season to go... Just because a player has not scored in a while
And they bring in a guy who hasn't scored in over a month. Ya, great way to salvage a season. Thats liket he leafs getting a guy like Komisarek to improve their defense

Quote:
am predicting that Carolina gets a better offer and trades O'Neill elsewhere
I don't know whos getting him, but the Leafs have the assests to get him. And how do you think will get him and what will they give up?

real NEED and not a WANT as O'Neill is ....

O'Neill is a need. As we've seent his year - Mogilny is one caught edge away from more hip problem.s Nolan is one battle infront of the net away from back problems. Nieuwendyk had back problems. Then add in the possibility of unexpected injuries to guys like Roberts and Sundin and you have a good, but fragile offense. You add in someone like O'Neill and you have a solid foward without injury problems and you keep other teams (whoy ou have to compete with) from getting him. And in case you havn't notice, the Leafs fowards have been completely flat offensively lately, they aren't the Avs.

Quote:
Tannenbaum has no interest in spending the money philly can, or else the teachers will fire him..
sometime over the last couple weeks (when the Leafs had to buy their American dollars) they made somewhere between 6-8 million dollars, that money will (at least hopefully) be made avaible to Ferguson..

Quote:
To set the record straight Mike Smith traded away Jason Smith
Because Quinn wouldn't play him and didn't want him on his team, hes just as much to blame for dumping him as Smith is. The bottom line is that the Leafs defense is weak because Quinn made it that way, and he traded away several players who would really strengthen it - who wouldn't love to add Markov or Smith to their current group?

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01-21-2004, 02:28 AM
  #35
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It got worse Tuesday when another Flyers defenceman, Jim Vandermeer, was forced out late in the first period when he separated his right shoulder while being checked hard into the boards by Saku Koivu.

Philly loses another dman today...

So who are they getting next now... Simon Gagne for Eric Brewer...

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01-21-2004, 08:34 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
BUT LOOK at the Value for a young Defenseman on a team like Carolina who is rebuilding .....Toronto could not have come close to offering anything off the Roster that would compare to Williams...

Nik Antropov is the only player similar in age yet with all his injuries I WOULD NEVER trade Williams for him straight up from a Philly point of view..

So I hope this slows down all those ridiculous prospects/picks trade offers for good young players ...Here what I am saying SLUGGO .....

The bar just got raised big time and if Markov can get you Justin Williams than the price for Brewer and Gonchar etc just went thru the roof...
I have been out of town and all hell breaks loose here...

I am actually surprised that as good as Williams is, he is not ever going to be a star, a potentially good player, but not a star. That is all it took for Markov? Defensemen are at a premium.

Great deal for Philadelphia.

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01-21-2004, 08:37 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f.
antropov and hedin for oneill

done!


done!


Oh my god, done!


O'Neill a home town King City boy... Dooooonnnnneeeee Pleeeease doooonnneee

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01-21-2004, 08:56 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Stephen
What I sort of like about this trade from a Leafs point of view is that it takes away one of Philly's small fast players from their lineup. These guys have killed us on foot races and on rushes etc. Markov is a great defenseman, but they're missing Desjardins...
And Ragnarsson, and Desjardins, and Aseidenberg and now Vandermeer. Wow.

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01-21-2004, 10:12 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
Speaking of Red Kelly developing Dman .....

INTERSTING fact Red Kelly played 13 years in the NHL with Detroit as a Dman and was traded to Toronto in 1959-60 and was immediately made into a center ice man ...by Punch Imlach and went on to win 3 cups with TO centering its second line after never playing a minute at forward his entire career before the trade....
Not only was he a D-man he was a Norris Trophy winning d-man and won 3 cups with the Detroit Red Wings.

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01-21-2004, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sluggo

sometime over the last couple weeks (when the Leafs had to buy their American dollars) they made somewhere between 6-8 million dollars, that money will (at least hopefully) be made avaible to Ferguson..



Because Quinn wouldn't play him and didn't want him on his team, hes just as much to blame for dumping him as Smith is. The bottom line is that the Leafs defense is weak because Quinn made it that way, and he traded away several players who would really strengthen it - who wouldn't love to add Markov or Smith to their current group?
Hopefully the money will be made available but don't count on it Tannenbaum must answer to the teachers. If it was Peca should be at the top of the list. They need better defensive forwards not goal scoreres who aren't scoring.

When Quinn came aboard there was no defence. Now the leafs have a defence that gets the team to 100 points. We've established that only one player has been traded Markov, that would strengthen the D and he did it as Bill Watters said because of his off ice activities. They had to get him out of TO. The other d-men Quinn stole in trades. He has done a terriffic job of building the D.


Philly made a terrific deal to get Markov. All they had to give up is a player who has done little but has potential. There are alot of players in the NHL who have the same resume. Markov is a number two d-man on Phill. I guess Clarkie liked him all along just wasn't going to let Lindros go to the Leafs. Hey Lindros would be a good addition to take care of Primeau.


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01-21-2004, 10:55 AM
  #41
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Hopefully the money will be made available but don't count on it Tannenbaum must answer to the teachers
Yes, but at the same time that money doesn't raise the Leafs payrole. They wouldn't have to give the team anymore, that 6-8 came out of the money they already have so I can see them letting the team have it.

Quote:
When Quinn came aboard there was no defence. Now the leafs have a defence that gets the team to 100 points. We've established that only one player has been traded Markov
The defense was young when Quinn took over. He had a big part in trading J.Smith, he didn't pull the trigger but he loaded the gun and tol Smith to fire. And his "failure" with the defense isn't really in trading Markov, its in not getting a player to replace him back int he deal. The defense that Quinn left this team was McCabe, Kaberle, Berg, Marchment. He didn't do a good job managing the Leafs D.

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01-21-2004, 12:38 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by sluggo
Yes, but at the same time that money doesn't raise the Leafs payrole. They wouldn't have to give the team anymore, that 6-8 came out of the money they already have so I can see them letting the team have it.



The defense was young when Quinn took over. He had a big part in trading J.Smith, he didn't pull the trigger but he loaded the gun and tol Smith to fire. And his "failure" with the defense isn't really in trading Markov, its in not getting a player to replace him back int he deal. The defense that Quinn left this team was McCabe, Kaberle, Berg, Marchment. He didn't do a good job managing the Leafs D.
He had to trade Markov due to off ice reasons. He traded for Berg and gave up nothing he had Berard who lost his eye that hurt and wasn't Quinns fault. Also Svehla retired but Yushkevich is out of NHL. McCabe is excellent and Karpovetsev is washed up. Kaberle was a 7th round pick and Quinn developed him same with Markov. His finger prints are all over the Klee signing gave up 0.

Quinn started with nothing and has developed a young D good enough to get a hundred points a season. Thats a great job. Who has done more with less in the NHL?

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01-21-2004, 12:46 PM
  #43
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He had to trade Markov due to off ice reasons.
He should have gottena D-man back to replace him, he didn't and right now we need a solid stay-at-home guy.

Quote:
He traded for Berg and gave up nothing
For a #5 guy Bergs good, but he is a #5 guy.

Quote:
he had Berard who lost his eye that hurt and wasn't Quinns fault.
No, which is why I've NEVER blamed Quinn for hte loss of Berard.

Quote:
Also Svehla retired but Yushkevich is out of NHL.
He mishandled the Svehla thing which (at least according to them) kept them from getting someone like a de Vries.

Quote:
Kaberle was a 7th round pick and Quinn developed him same with Markov. His finger prints are all over the Klee signing gave up 0.
Kaberle was able to play, Quinn didn't "develop" him. We KNOW from McCaulys comments that Quinn doesn't give instruction. Jason Smith is a perfect example of that. And Ken Klee was a Ferguson move, not a Quinn move. Klee was avaible for almost 2 months while Quinn was GM, if he wanted him he would have gotten him

Quote:
Quinn started with nothing and has developed a young D good enough to get a hundred points a season.
And that has huge holes that need to be filled. Before Ferguson signed Klee the Leafs D was McCabe, Kaberle, Marchment and Berg. Thats a terrible defense and the ONLY person to blame for it is Quinn. And those 100 point seasons are due MUCH more to the Leafs goal tending then their defense. They are constantly outshot and they always left Cujo out to dry, like they do with Belfour now.

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01-21-2004, 09:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sluggo
He should have gottena D-man back to replace him, he didn't and right now we need a solid stay-at-home guy.



For a #5 guy Bergs good, but he is a #5 guy.



No, which is why I've NEVER blamed Quinn for hte loss of Berard.



He mishandled the Svehla thing which (at least according to them) kept them from getting someone like a de Vries.



Kaberle was able to play, Quinn didn't "develop" him. We KNOW from McCaulys comments that Quinn doesn't give instruction. Jason Smith is a perfect example of that. And Ken Klee was a Ferguson move, not a Quinn move. Klee was avaible for almost 2 months while Quinn was GM, if he wanted him he would have gotten him



And that has huge holes that need to be filled. Before Ferguson signed Klee the Leafs D was McCabe, Kaberle, Marchment and Berg. Thats a terrible defense and the ONLY person to blame for it is Quinn. And those 100 point seasons are due MUCH more to the Leafs goal tending then their defense. They are constantly outshot and they always left Cujo out to dry, like they do with Belfour now.
Cujo has done nothing for Detroit they have great d and had only two more points. I forgot Quinn also drafted Pilaf. Same year as Coliacovoi. Kaberle never played in NHL until Quinn. Who cares what McCauley says a disgruntled ex employee. Klee was waiting for a big offer never came. Same with Nieuwendyk. Quinn out waited both of them out. Marchment signed early because he was willing to take a year.

Yeah yeah worst defence 100 points due to Goalie. Remember the forwards don't backcheck.

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01-21-2004, 10:40 PM
  #45
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Hey look Sluggo

Justin Williams sets up a goal today as Caronlina wins and take one step closer to the playoffs and of course fulfilling Ruthfords Salvage the Season statement...

I guess Williams forgot to read between the lines...EH!!!!


&

O'Neill scored his fifth goal in four games late in the second period to give the Carolina Hurricanes a 2-1 win over the New Jersey Devils on Wednesday night.

``I'm glad you called it a scoring run,'' O'Neill said after scoring his second winning goal in four games. ``The first half of the season couldn't have been worse.

``The puck is finally going over the goal line.''

O'Neill, who had five goals in his first 44 games, even got a little unlucky in the final seconds. He slid a shot into an empty net just after the final buzzer.


I guess the price is going up by the day NOW....


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