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What does the Richards deal mean for Carter?

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Old
12-15-2007, 03:59 PM
  #76
thedjpd
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Bieksa would be perfect for the Flyers. If he returns healthy, I'd try and get him somehow.

Besides all that, I'd also do Carter + for Edler (the + wouldn't be huge, but it'd be a decent prospect & a pick).

I don't know if Top10-15 is where he'll max out, but he could max out to a Timonen type (a solid #1, but maybe not Norris level).

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Old
12-15-2007, 04:39 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Bieksa would be perfect for the Flyers. If he returns healthy, I'd try and get him somehow.

Besides all that, I'd also do Carter + for Edler (the + wouldn't be huge, but it'd be a decent prospect & a pick).

I don't know if Top10-15 is where he'll max out, but he could max out to a Timonen type (a solid #1, but maybe not Norris level).
I really doubt Edler would be moved for anything short of a massive overpayment. Carter and pick/prospect wouldn't suffice I don't think. The entire Canucks' organization have HUGE hopes for this kid. When asked about what will happen to Edler when the Canucks' defense is healthy, whether or not he'd be sent down, AV simply said with a chuckle, "He isn't going anywhere that's for sure". With his development curve it really would be foolish for the Canucks to move him at this point.

But as for the proposal involving Krajicek and Schneider, is there any way the Canucks' 1st could be switched to a 2nd? I just question whether or not Nonis would want to part with a 1st in a deep draft.

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Old
12-15-2007, 05:18 PM
  #78
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I've got two proposals

The first one is this:

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
2nd round pick

To Van:
Carter
Kukkonen

The Flyers would have 8 NHL defencemen with Krajicek so therefore Kukkonen IMO could become expendable.

As of right now Kukkonen is 6th on the Flyers defensive depth charts (ahead of Fitzy).

The Canucks would put Kukkonen into the lineup until Bieksa gets back at which point Kukkonen is out until yet another Canuck injury happens.



The second proposal I've got is an even bigger blockbuster:

To Philly:
Lukas Krajicek
Jannik Hansen
Cory Schneider
1st round pick

To Vancouver:
Jeff Carter
Lasse Kukkonen
Andreas Nodl
Jakub Kovar


Thoughts??

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Old
12-15-2007, 06:03 PM
  #79
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I'm telling you, bigger players take longer to put it all together. I think we might be giving up on Carter too soon. I agree with Jester that he needs a position change and playing on the wing with Briere and Gagne might be in the cards for Carter. I'd put Potulny on a line with Fartnell and Upshall and I think they could really produce some magic. I'd put Topelko on the 4th line with Eager and whoever and you've got some skill and decent checking ability on the fourth. The Richards line stays in tact.

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Old
12-15-2007, 06:21 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
I've got two proposals

The first one is this:

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
2nd round pick

To Van:
Carter
Kukkonen

The Flyers would have 8 NHL defencemen with Krajicek so therefore Kukkonen IMO could become expendable.

As of right now Kukkonen is 6th on the Flyers defensive depth charts (ahead of Fitzy).

The Canucks would put Kukkonen into the lineup until Bieksa gets back at which point Kukkonen is out until yet another Canuck injury happens.



The second proposal I've got is an even bigger blockbuster:

To Philly:
Lukas Krajicek
Jannik Hansen
Cory Schneider
1st round pick

To Vancouver:
Jeff Carter
Lasse Kukkonen
Andreas Nodl
Jakub Kovar


Thoughts??
Yea...the Flyers get ****ing hosed in both of them.

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Old
12-15-2007, 07:02 PM
  #81
thedjpd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
I've got two proposals

The first one is this:

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
2nd round pick

To Van:
Carter
Kukkonen

The Flyers would have 8 NHL defencemen with Krajicek so therefore Kukkonen IMO could become expendable.

As of right now Kukkonen is 6th on the Flyers defensive depth charts (ahead of Fitzy).

The Canucks would put Kukkonen into the lineup until Bieksa gets back at which point Kukkonen is out until yet another Canuck injury happens.



The second proposal I've got is an even bigger blockbuster:

To Philly:
Lukas Krajicek
Jannik Hansen
Cory Schneider
1st round pick

To Vancouver:
Jeff Carter
Lasse Kukkonen
Andreas Nodl
Jakub Kovar


Thoughts??
Those are terrible.

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Old
12-15-2007, 08:47 PM
  #82
Agent007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Those are terrible.
Ya I know....

At least I tried

Seriously though I don't think their that off.

If Philly adds Krajicek then they could have a defencemen expendable.


How about we just keep it simple:

To Vancouver:
Carter
Ruzicka

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
Hansen
2nd round draft pick

Thoughts??

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Old
12-17-2007, 02:00 AM
  #83
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As a Canucks fan, I would do a Krajicke centered deal for Carter. With that said, I wouldn't do an Edler for Carter deal, unless the Flyers added something very substantial.

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Old
12-17-2007, 10:25 AM
  #84
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Pre-injury, Bieksa was one of the most frustrating Canucks to watch this year. Last year he was phenomenal, a real diamond in the rough; he came out of nowhere and played bigtime minutes in a shutdown tandem with Willie Mitchell.

This year, at least before Bieksa's injury, both guys weren't performing at the same level as last year, especially Bieksa.

It got me thinkin' that this kid was a one-hit wonder and now we may have to wait until next year to find out.

Edler's something special, though. For a kid so young he has amazing poise and rarely makes a costly mistake. I'd think that Canucks management would ask for a large return for this kid.

I'd love to see Edler on the Flyers, but I'd take Bieksa if I knew he could perform at the level he did in 06-07. Bieksa has Flyers personality written all over him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Make it happen. Ruzicka probably needs a change of scenery. He looked good occasionally last year, but I think that he could put up big numbers with good linemates.
Actually, Ruzicka might be a perfect fit next to the Sedins if he could get his head straight....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
I've got two proposals

The first one is this:

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
2nd round pick

To Van:
Carter
Kukkonen

The Flyers would have 8 NHL defencemen with Krajicek so therefore Kukkonen IMO could become expendable.

As of right now Kukkonen is 6th on the Flyers defensive depth charts (ahead of Fitzy).

The Canucks would put Kukkonen into the lineup until Bieksa gets back at which point Kukkonen is out until yet another Canuck injury happens.



The second proposal I've got is an even bigger blockbuster:

To Philly:
Lukas Krajicek
Jannik Hansen
Cory Schneider
1st round pick

To Vancouver:
Jeff Carter
Lasse Kukkonen
Andreas Nodl
Jakub Kovar


Thoughts??
Dont see why we would want to trade Kukkonen....we need dmen to add to this group...if we are going to replace dmen, it needs to be replacing Hatcher or Jones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'm telling you, bigger players take longer to put it all together. I think we might be giving up on Carter too soon. I agree with Jester that he needs a position change and playing on the wing with Briere and Gagne might be in the cards for Carter. I'd put Potulny on a line with Fartnell and Upshall and I think they could really produce some magic. I'd put Topelko on the 4th line with Eager and whoever and you've got some skill and decent checking ability on the fourth. The Richards line stays in tact.
Agreed. I dont want to see him go anywhere, but if he did, I think Vancouver offers some possibilities since they have a few dmen that could fit our need. So would Edmonton.

As long as Lupul stays with Richards, and Potulny can stay healthy for more then 5 minutes, I wouldnt mind trying Carter on the wing, problem is, then what do you do in the coming years when Giroux, Downie, JVR, Nodl, etc. are ready to come up? I think Carter needs to stay at center on this team cause our organizational strength is on the wing. As much as I like Knuble, I have accepted the fact that we can move him down the depth chart, but we will have a major logjam after this year on the wing. If that Umberger/Richards/Lupul line continues to play well, I want to keep them together.

As to your line suggestions, that line with Potulny sounds interesting. Giroux and Downie would also make interesting wingers for him as well.

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Old
12-17-2007, 11:08 AM
  #85
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I dont want to give up on carter. I hope we can keep him. but if we cant Kraijeck + Scheinder is a good package.

id love Carter on Brieres Wing

Gagne-Briere-Carter
Umberger-Richards-Lupul
Upshall-Hartnell-Knuble (I think Harts can play C
Eager-Dowd-Kapanen/Tolpeko

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Old
12-17-2007, 01:08 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
Ya I know....

At least I tried

Seriously though I don't think their that off.

If Philly adds Krajicek then they could have a defencemen expendable.


How about we just keep it simple:

To Vancouver:
Carter
Ruzicka

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
Hansen
2nd round draft pick

Thoughts??
Much better. I would do it.

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Old
12-17-2007, 01:12 PM
  #87
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Are you guys still in the market for a defensive checking center?

I'm thinking a deal like this could work for both teams:

Carter, Nodl

for

Krajicek, Morrison, Schnieder

Krajicek helps your defense become much more mobile and he's paid only 1m until 2009. Morrison gives you a defensive checking presence that can put up 50pts and he's in his last year so you're not committed on that contract.

Schneider and Nodl are prospect swaps to balance it out a bit. If you don't want to give up Nodl then just Carter for Krajicek/Morrison and a 3rd/4th round pick. Both teams are in win-now mode yes? I don't think prospects are going to be as big a deal to either GM's for the purpose of the trade.

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Old
12-17-2007, 01:14 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Are you guys still in the market for a defensive checking center?

I'm thinking a deal like this could work for both teams:

Carter, Nodl

for

Krajicek, Morrison, Schnieder

Krajicek helps your defense become much more mobile and he's paid only 1m until 2009. Morrison gives you a defensive checking presence that can put up 50pts and he's in his last year so you're not committed on that contract.

Schneider and Nodl are prospect swaps to balance it out a bit. If you don't want to give up Nodl then just Carter for Krajicek/Morrison and a 3rd/4th round pick. Both teams are in win-now mode yes? I don't think prospects are going to be as big a deal to either GM's for the purpose of the trade.
Doesn't work cap-wise. You'd have to take Hatcher or Knuble or Hartnell. Someone expensive. Moreover, we'd be trading one of our best winger prospects for Brendan Morrison, if we can get Krajicek and Schneider for Carter and Ruzicka. Doesn't help.

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Old
12-17-2007, 01:20 PM
  #89
sticknrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Doesn't work cap-wise. You'd have to take Hatcher or Knuble or Hartnell. Someone expensive. Moreover, we'd be trading one of our best winger prospects for Brendan Morrison, if we can get Krajicek and Schneider for Carter and Ruzicka. Doesn't help.
I didn't think Schnieder would be that much of value to you since he's a long ways from being a starting NHL goalie and you guys are in win-now mode.

Hm, Knuble might work though, we do need an offensive RW right now, not a prospect so Knuble would be more of use to us than Nodl.

Carter,Knuble for Krajicek, Morrison, Schnieder?

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12-17-2007, 01:26 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
I didn't think Schnieder would be that much of value to you since he's a long ways from being a starting NHL goalie and you guys are in win-now mode.

Hm, Knuble might work though, we do need an offensive RW right now, not a prospect so Knuble would be more of use to us than Nodl.

Carter,Knuble for Krajicek, Morrison, Schnieder?
No thanks. Knuble, while having an off-year by his standards, is still on pace for 26 goals and 55 points. We'd lose too much offense in this deal, and TSN is reporting that Morrison is having wrist surgery and will be out an undetermined amount of time. You couldn't trade him to begin with, and I wouldn't want him as a UFA to begin with. Certainly not in this deal.

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Old
12-17-2007, 02:01 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
No thanks. Knuble, while having an off-year by his standards, is still on pace for 26 goals and 55 points. We'd lose too much offense in this deal, and TSN is reporting that Morrison is having wrist surgery and will be out an undetermined amount of time. You couldn't trade him to begin with, and I wouldn't want him as a UFA to begin with. Certainly not in this deal.
Well at least we all agree that Carter for Krajicek/Schnieder will work so there's some hope.

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Old
12-17-2007, 03:23 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Doesn't work cap-wise. You'd have to take Hatcher or Knuble or Hartnell. Someone expensive. Moreover, we'd be trading one of our best winger prospects for Brendan Morrison, if we can get Krajicek and Schneider for Carter and Ruzicka. Doesn't help.
Is Kraijcek top 4 capable?

Honestly, if Carter goes, I'd like to see somebody on a similar scale, i.e.:

Carter can play second line - and could develop into a first line role.

I'd like to see a straight up return of a top 4 puck mover, that could develop into a top pairing.

Whether or not either will is a gamble, but right now Carter's our best trading chip. I'd rather not deal him for a 3rd pairing type dman.

And Schneider's great, but goalies drafted are a crapshoot. Look at Price, Lundqvist, etc. I'd rather spend a bunch of lower end draft picks and hope we get lucky and find a Price or a Pavelec type over the next year or two while our starting goalie position is holding up.

What I'm sayign is I just don't know if I want to move quality assets for a crapshoot anyway.

In fact, recently higher draftpicks are actually performing worse (one can guess why - expectations probably don't help) - examples include Lehtnonen and Fleury who are both still young but struggling. Young goalies who weren't so highly touted at first(Lundqvist, Price, Rask) seem to be doing splendidly.

Another example is Pavelec, who in albeit limited action has outplayed his highly touted counterpart in Lehtonen.

The Flyers themselves have had similar experiences: remember Maxime Oullette? So highly touted, now not even in the NHL. A much later draft pick, Niittymakii, while not a superstar starter, is at least still an NHL worthy goaltender.

Just my thoughts.


Last edited by thedjpd: 12-17-2007 at 03:31 PM.
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Old
12-17-2007, 03:47 PM
  #93
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I think this team might need a shake up, if not a coaching change (which doesn't look like its happening), then maybe moving Carter to help our other holes would be an alternative. I'd still be a bit hesitant to move him at this point ... I could go for some Pat Burns, though.

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Old
12-17-2007, 06:11 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Is Kraijcek top 4 capable?

Honestly, if Carter goes, I'd like to see somebody on a similar scale, i.e.:

Carter can play second line - and could develop into a first line role.

I'd like to see a straight up return of a top 4 puck mover, that could develop into a top pairing.

Whether or not either will is a gamble, but right now Carter's our best trading chip. I'd rather not deal him for a 3rd pairing type dman.

And Schneider's great, but goalies drafted are a crapshoot. Look at Price, Lundqvist, etc. I'd rather spend a bunch of lower end draft picks and hope we get lucky and find a Price or a Pavelec type over the next year or two while our starting goalie position is holding up.

What I'm sayign is I just don't know if I want to move quality assets for a crapshoot anyway.

In fact, recently higher draftpicks are actually performing worse (one can guess why - expectations probably don't help) - examples include Lehtnonen and Fleury who are both still young but struggling. Young goalies who weren't so highly touted at first(Lundqvist, Price, Rask) seem to be doing splendidly.

Another example is Pavelec, who in albeit limited action has outplayed his highly touted counterpart in Lehtonen.

The Flyers themselves have had similar experiences: remember Maxime Oullette? So highly touted, now not even in the NHL. A much later draft pick, Niittymakii, while not a superstar starter, is at least still an NHL worthy goaltender.

Just my thoughts.
Carey Price? He was a top 5 pick in 2005 (#5 overall, to be exact). What are you talking about?

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12-17-2007, 06:17 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by socraticirony View Post
Carey Price? He was a top 5 pick in 2005 (#5 overall, to be exact). What are you talking about?
Oh, crap, my mistake. Well, ignore Price and my point still stands. That's what I get for trusting my memory instead of checking.

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Old
12-17-2007, 06:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Well at least we all agree that Carter for Krajicek/Schnieder will work so there's some hope.
Unfortunatly none of us are GM's....I think

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Old
12-17-2007, 06:31 PM
  #97
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Oh, crap, my mistake. Well, ignore Price and my point still stands. That's what I get for trusting my memory instead of checking.
No problem. Even without Price, in addition to the guys you listed, there are many more legitimate NHL goalies picked in later rounds:

Miikka Kiprusoff - 5th round, 116th overall (1995)
Evgeni Nabokov - 9th round, 219th overall (1994)
Cristobal Huet - 7th round, 214th overall (2001... turned 26 before the season)
Dominik Hasek - 10th round, 199th overall (1983)
Tomas Vokoun - 9th round, 226th overall (1994)
Nikolai Khabibulin - 9th round, 204th overall (1992)
Marty Turco - 5th round, 124th overall (1994)

There are plenty more examples of later picks who have become NHL players... just like there are in every other sport. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss.

The Flyers picked up Jakub Kovar in the later rounds of the draft a few years ago, and, after playing so well in the Czech league, he's currently in the OHL -- although I have no idea how he's doing. Who knows... maybe he could turn into that late-round gem for us down the road?

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12-17-2007, 06:33 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post

Dont see why we would want to trade Kukkonen....we need dmen to add to this group...if we are going to replace dmen, it needs to be replacing Hatcher or Jones.
The only reason I added a defencemen to the deal was because with Krajicek Philly has 8-9 NHL defencemen on it's roster. Therefore it might make sense for them to be interested in trading away a defencemen. I'd be interested in anyone from Kukkonen, Jones, Guenin, Fitzpatrick.

I've got a better proposal that IMO is a lot more realistic and works well for both teams:

To Philly:
Krajicek
Schneider
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Carter
5th round draft pick

What do you guys think??

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Old
12-17-2007, 06:41 PM
  #99
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not sure if this has already been asked but...

what about

Carter, Knuble, and a pick

for

Torres, Smid, and Staios

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12-17-2007, 07:06 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by socraticirony View Post
The Flyers picked up Jakub Kovar in the later rounds of the draft a few years ago, and, after playing so well in the Czech league, he's currently in the OHL -- although I have no idea how he's doing. Who knows... maybe he could turn into that late-round gem for us down the road?
From the snippets I've been able to read, he's been outplaying the incumbent. He supposedly looks pretty good for a rookie who has never seen North American hockey before.

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