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View Poll Results: Do the Oilers do a good job of managing their draft talent
You gotta pay your dues and you gotta learn to play 2 way. 22 53.66%
It turns scorers into 4th line pluggers. 7 17.07%
If you dont bring them up how can you ver see what they can do in the "show". 11 26.83%
We are so talented on the big club that the farm team cant break into the line up. 1 2.44%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-20-2004, 06:52 PM
  #1
Meanashell11
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Picks/Prospects Management

I take a look at guys like Nash and wonder what is all the fuss about Hemsky. I think the Oil have a ton of talent in the AHL but are so stubborn about the whole "you gotta learn to play both ways" "you gotta pay your dues in the A" . So my question is, are we screwing up our pipeline with the way we manage our picks/prospects?


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01-20-2004, 07:00 PM
  #2
jadeddog
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yeah you cant even COMPARE nash and hemsky.... it would be like comparing hemsky to kovolchuk... they're not even in the same league..... people expect entirely too much out of hemsky, hes gonna be a good player, there is no question about that..... but is he gonna be a GREAT player, i dont necessarily think so

personally i think of hemsky in the same light as comrie, though not quite as good as comrie..... i think in a couple years (maybe even next year?) hemsky will be able to be counted upon for 55-65 points a season (20-25 goals, 35-40 assists), but i dont think he will ever be an 80-90 point per season type of guy......whereas nash (IMO) will be an automatic for 80 points a season

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01-20-2004, 07:10 PM
  #3
Digger12
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You're comparing Hemsky to a #1 overall pick...I'm not sure if that's entirely fair.

IMO when you look at the Roadrunners' roster, I don't see a whole of young offensive talent other than Rita and Salmelainen. Part of the reason for that is the Oilers picking Euros for their #1 picks in 2000 and 2002, but another reason is that their top forward farm guys from last year (Stoll, Torres) have already graduated.

I'm fairly OK with the Oilers' prospect development up to the point they reach the big club...after that, well, I get a bit more uneasy.

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01-20-2004, 07:11 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by jadeddog
whereas nash (IMO) will be an automatic for 80 points a season
Only if he averages 70 goals per year... :p

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01-20-2004, 07:14 PM
  #5
Jamie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanashell11
I take a look at guys like Nash and wonder what is all the fuss about Hemsky. I think the Oil have a ton of talent in the AHL but are so stubborn about the whole "you gotta learn to play both ways" "you gotta pay your dues in the A" . So my question is, are we screwing up our pipeline with the way we manage our picks/prospects?
I didn't vote, it's really a combination of all those choices IMO. We do have a deep team, but we should still try and look at guys like Rita when we can. Mac-T seems to like defensive minded players and I don't think he knows the differance between having a guy on the team entirely for offense, and a grinder. I remember a quote about Dailge's defensive play from Lemaire. "He's not so good defensivly, but thats ok, we have those guys, thats not his job." Thats not word for word, just going from memory, but Lemaire realizes the differance between offence and defense and Mac-T doesn't get it. It is a game of 3 differant zones, not just 1 big zone like it seems is what he thinks.

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01-20-2004, 07:26 PM
  #6
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I keep waiting for Rita to score 10 in a month and force the issue. he scored 25 goals as a 20 year old in his first AHL season, that's pretty darn good.

He scored 21 the next season, but played in the NHL for a dozen games and scored 3 with Edmonton.

This season there seems to be a plateau. I agree completely the Oilers should take a long look at him, the sooner the better. I'm just not as certain he's going to be the player many of us (certainly myself) thought he'd be eventually.

As for the survey, I don't think the Oilers are way off, they drive us nuts with Rita, but have promoted Comrie, Horcoff, Hemsky, Semenov, Chimera , Pisani, Stoll, Conklin and others since Lowe and MacT have taken over.

That's a pretty darn good list, with Woywitka, Lynch and (maybe) Rita on the way.

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01-20-2004, 07:34 PM
  #7
jadeddog
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couldnt agree more about macT..... he would rather have a guy who plays perfect defense than a guy who scores 40 goals but doesnt play any defense at all...... that might be a bit of an overstatement, but if a guy isnt absolutely lighting it up offensively he gets all over him about his defensive responsibilities, its all fine and good to try and make a player an "all-around" guy, but how does macT expect offensive players to produce MORE offence AND play better defence?? it just doesnt make sense to me....

it boils down to offensive players becoming more concerned with playing defence than scoring, and that doesnt "fit" them and they become worst players for it....he gets on them when they dont score, and says they need to improve their defensive game or they are gonna get less minutes and might even go up to the PB..... so the player in question becomes better defensively (or at least tries to, because not every player got to the NHL bybeing a great defensive minded player, so for some of the offensive players this is a difficult thing to do)... they either then become better at defence and their offensive game then suffers some, or they dont get much better defensively and they get less minutes (or sent to the PB) without ever getting the chance to prove themselves in an area of the game where they are skilled (scoring points)

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01-20-2004, 07:48 PM
  #8
jadeddog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I keep waiting for Rita to score 10 in a month and force the issue. he scored 25 goals as a 20 year old in his first AHL season, that's pretty darn good.

He scored 21 the next season, but played in the NHL for a dozen games and scored 3 with Edmonton.

This season there seems to be a plateau. I agree completely the Oilers should take a long look at him, the sooner the better. I'm just not as certain he's going to be the player many of us (certainly myself) thought he'd be eventually.

As for the survey, I don't think the Oilers are way off, they drive us nuts with Rita, but have promoted Comrie, Horcoff, Hemsky, Semenov, Chimera , Pisani, Stoll, Conklin and others since Lowe and MacT have taken over.

That's a pretty darn good list, with Woywitka, Lynch and (maybe) Rita on the way.
this is a good point, lots of players of actually come up from the AHL over the past few seasons, but i would argue that only semenov was really brought up because of "skill".... the rest were pretty much brought in to fill the roster spots of departed players (either through trades or free agency)

and i would also argue that there isnt anybody in the system right now that looks like they will make the team on skill alone.... lynch might make the team next year, but again that might be because of a spot opened up via a trade..... we have a lot of 3rd liner types but not very many scorers, and thats really my whole problem with macT and lowe, their absolute LOVE affair with denfensive/grinder type players

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01-20-2004, 09:42 PM
  #9
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The Oilers have to do something with Rita fast, he will have to be protected in the waiver draft next year. Either give him a decent look or trade him, there's no sense protecting him just to turn him into an ahl'er.

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01-20-2004, 10:09 PM
  #10
jadeddog
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EXACTLY!!! couldnt have said it better myself

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01-21-2004, 09:35 AM
  #11
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Can you imagine the Oilers drafting Kovalchuk and sending him to the AHL to find his defensive game? Ay carumba.

But anyways, this is going to turn into a MacT thing...so I won't go much further. I would rather see Rita for the next 20 games getting 13-15 minutes a night to see if he has anything worth keeping or trade him away.

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01-21-2004, 11:01 AM
  #12
jadeddog
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i think your joke about kovulchuk shows the exact point everybody is trying to make........ unless they have 99 or 66 on their jersey, they are expected to play "great defense", even if that isnt what they are *good* at or if that is whats best for their game, or (seemingly) what would be best for the team in the long run, because a team full of guys who play great defense and score 10-15 goals a season, isnt gonna get you very far

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01-21-2004, 11:17 AM
  #13
Bohologo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog
because a team full of guys who play great defense and score 10-15 goals a season, isnt gonna get you very far
Notwithstanding the Minnesota Wild example from last season. Even the Devils have only one epic scoring forward (Elias), so I'm happy to see young guys learn to play the system, assuming that system starts to generate some positive results.

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01-21-2004, 11:30 AM
  #14
Holly Gunning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Can you imagine the Oilers drafting Kovalchuk and sending him to the AHL to find his defensive game? Ay carumba.
It couldn't have been done, he had a clause in his contract that said if he didn't make the NHL squad, they'd assign him to his Russian team.

Even though you're just making a point, it still deserves to be pointed out. He had to learn defense in the NHL.

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01-21-2004, 11:32 AM
  #15
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyG
It couldn't have been done, he had a clause in his contract that said if he didn't make the NHL squad, they'd assign him to his Russian team.

Even though you're just making a point, it still deserves to be pointed out. He had to learn defense in the NHL.
Actually I was just making a point. I am saying that the Oilers have no interest in being able to nuture the creativity of a player. They want to run around and have a roster full of Pisanis and Horcoffs.

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01-21-2004, 11:53 AM
  #16
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Can you imagine if MacT was coaching the '79 oilers? Gretz/Coffey/Anderson would still be in the AHL cause they can't play defense, gretz cant win a face off, coffey doesnt back check, and anderson doesnt block shots. Messier is a 3rd line checking center and Fhur's GAA is 1.07. The team finishes 8th every year and is out in the first round. Seriously though, part of my point is that other teams (and the early Oilers were like this) allow their rookies to come up and learn in the NHL. Det/NJ/Col all have had rookies in their line up when they were/are winning championships. We insist on a bunch of plugger filling out the line up instead of giving the ritas and other guys with potential the chance to learn on the job. Instead we keep them down in the AHL and try to turn them into MacT clones. What would the downside be? So we miss the playoffs a bit. We get the chance to pick higher and maybe we find out that we had some gems all along.

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01-21-2004, 12:34 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanashell11
Can you imagine if MacT was coaching the '79 oilers? Gretz/Coffey/Anderson would still be in the AHL cause they can't play defense, gretz cant win a face off, coffey doesnt back check, and anderson doesnt block shots. Messier is a 3rd line checking center and Fhur's GAA is 1.07. The team finishes 8th every year and is out in the first round. Seriously though, part of my point is that other teams (and the early Oilers were like this) allow their rookies to come up and learn in the NHL. Det/NJ/Col all have had rookies in their line up when they were/are winning championships. We insist on a bunch of plugger filling out the line up instead of giving the ritas and other guys with potential the chance to learn on the job. Instead we keep them down in the AHL and try to turn them into MacT clones. What would the downside be? So we miss the playoffs a bit. We get the chance to pick higher and maybe we find out that we had some gems all along.
The difference here is the Colorado's and Detroits of the League have a good core of veterans. The Oilers being one of the youngest teams in the league could take a massive plunge by taking the Horcoff's, and Moreau's out of the lineup for more rookies. Bergeron, and Stoll are the two players to come and show something this year. I would have loved for Rita to get a chance this season as well, but since the Oilers haven't been a team that they were hoping to be this season, it is kind of a risk throwing another player into the fray, either causing him to lose his confidence, or making the team worse all together.

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01-21-2004, 12:51 PM
  #18
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltalk
The difference here is the Colorado's and Detroits of the League have a good core of veterans. The Oilers being one of the youngest teams in the league could take a massive plunge by taking the Horcoff's, and Moreau's out of the lineup for more rookies. Bergeron, and Stoll are the two players to come and show something this year. I would have loved for Rita to get a chance this season as well, but since the Oilers haven't been a team that they were hoping to be this season, it is kind of a risk throwing another player into the fray, either causing him to lose his confidence, or making the team worse all together.
I am under the impression that this team already ruined Rita. When he was one of the top 6 forwards(I thought he was on the best line.) at camp two years ago and they sent him to the minors because Cleary had a one way and he had a two way could very well have been the defining moment. He has a decent camp this year, but Pisani is the guy that gets to play. What is the benefit of having Pisani play here while Rita stews? Why is it that the Oilers can coddle Hemsky but Rita doesn't get half of the same opportunity? Drafted 13th overall in 1999. 13 GP 3G, 1A, 4 PTS.

Torres got a tremendous opportunity. NY Islander career. 31 GP 0G, 6A, 6PTS.

The Isles should have just shipped him to Bridgeport and rot never to be seen again.

BTW Rita's PPG average in the AHL is about the same as Torres.

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01-21-2004, 01:21 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltalk
The difference here is the Colorado's and Detroits of the League have a good core of veterans. The Oilers being one of the youngest teams in the league could take a massive plunge by taking the Horcoff's, and Moreau's out of the lineup for more rookies. Bergeron, and Stoll are the two players to come and show something this year. I would have loved for Rita to get a chance this season as well, but since the Oilers haven't been a team that they were hoping to be this season, it is kind of a risk throwing another player into the fray, either causing him to lose his confidence, or making the team worse all together.
Phenomenal post, couldn't have said it better myself.

You cannot win with a team full of 23 year olds, and better yet, you cannot expect a team full of 23 year olds to get better without the proper guidance. Be this from coaches and/or veteran players, it doesn't matter.

Kevin Lowe made his bed by pulling together one of the youngest teams in the NHL. How can you be so shocked that they aren't very good at holding 3rd period leads and winning tight games?

As for Rita, it mystifies me why some posters here still like this guy. I've watched him play a few times this season now, as well as both previous years. The guy is predictable offensivly, and his shot just isn't up to snuff for NHL standards. He's another Fedor Fedorov - he's got the talent and the size, but he's missing one or two key ingredients that are going to turn him into either a career AHL'er, or a plugger at the NHL level, tops. Same goes for Mikhnov who'se stats for his age at the RSL are anything but tantalizing.

Perhaps the biggest dissapointment for me this year was Chimera, and how the coaching staff aren't able to turn him into a player is beyond me. Someone is gonna pick up Jason Chimera off waivers in a year or two, and they're going to turn him into a good player - you can write this down and save the post if you want, because I'm pretty darn sure it's going to happen.

MacTavish doesn't seem to be doing a good job in the standings, nor does he seem to be a doing a good job developing players.

Shame Lowe can't fire him though, after giving him a 3 year contract.

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01-21-2004, 02:16 PM
  #20
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You're right that Pisani got a one-way deal last summer after his strong play down the stretch, then Torres got a one-way contract and made it harder yet for Rita to make the team. Rita would have had to seriously outplay someone like that to force a trade or something, but he didn't.

Why did Pisani get a one-way deal? I'm not entirely sure - I believe he would have signed a two-way deal as well, but that's just speculation.

Obviously the mgmt saw more in Torres and Pisani than they did in Rita up to that point. Torres has definitely impressed and provided much more offense than anyone was really expecting in his first full year, so that proved the mgmt right (and very quickly) on Torres. Pisani struggled early, played better, then maybe tailed off again, but he's an OK guy to have in the press box, too. He's a little older, might not suffer as much from a lack of playing time as some other younger guys, but has the potential to really contribute when he's playing well. Perhaps they're going to wait for Reasoner to come back to really give Pisani another crack with the RPM line?

Anyway, I do remember some comments about Rita's less-than-stellar work ethic and concern about his defensive play after his brief call-up a while back.

I'm not going to jump all over MacT for trying to make sure a guy can play decent defense, because we all know that offensive guys will always go through dry spells where they're not scoring goals. At those times, a player needs to still work hard and be at least "OK" defensively so as not to hurt his team when he's not helping by scoring goals. Comrie had some of that (or a LOT of that) last year which is why he ended up such a minus player...when he wasn't scoring, he was hurting the team by being out there. And the Oilers this year for sure can't afford that sort of thing. With the tight playoff race, I can't see Rita getting a sniff the rest of the way unless there are serious injuries and/or he plays *extremely* well in Toronto the rest of the way, which hasn't happened this year. In fact, since he was named AHL Player of the Year a while back, he hasn't really done *that* well in the AHL.

Bart

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01-21-2004, 02:20 PM
  #21
Easilee 27
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I thought I heard that the Oilers are 13-0 when leading going into the third. Couldn't agree more about Rita, I don't think he's the player anyone thought he'd be. Its not some conspiracy that he's in Toronto, he simply isn't good enough to be here.

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01-21-2004, 02:42 PM
  #22
jadeddog
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i think this thread got side-tracked a little bit, it somehow became a rita thread..... i think the problem that most of the "macT detractors" in this thread have is that macT doesnt exactly give his offensive players (and we dont have very many of them) the "room" to grow and make mistakes... he also gives defensive players MUCH more slack than offensive players

here is an example: a guy like pisani is expected to play a good defensive game and maybe chip in with 10 goals, 15 assists over the season...... he is expected to be a defensive player first and hopefully have a good +/-...... a guy like hemsky is expected to score first and foremost but he is also supposed to play adequate defense as well..... basically they are the opposites of each other, one is expected for good defense and adequate offense and the other is expected to have good offense and adequate defense.... but here is the difference in macT's coaching and attitude towards these two different types of players..... when the offensive player goes into a 5-7 game scoring slump, he is then expected to pick it up defensively to still make an impact in the game (rather than try harder in his area of prowess to make this same impact)..... but when a defensive player (under macT) isnt doing so well defensively, does macT then go to the papers and talk about how he isnt playing well defensively, so therefore he needs to start scoring more goals?? of course not..... and there is your double standard

(and im just using examples here to prove my point, the actual players dont much matter)

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01-21-2004, 02:42 PM
  #23
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easilee 27
I thought I heard that the Oilers are 13-0 when leading going into the third. Couldn't agree more about Rita, I don't think he's the player anyone thought he'd be. Its not some conspiracy that he's in Toronto, he simply isn't good enough to be here.
When he was at camp two years ago he was arguably the best player on the ice. Things change, work ethic changes. For all we know he took that send down as a big blow to his confidence. Since I have only seen him a few times since,(Including this year's camp where he wasn't as good as two years ago but was better than some players that we kept.) I can't really say what his game evolved to, but two years ago he was good enough to play on this team.

I don't claim conspiracy. I claim this was an opportunity the could turn out to be an opportunity lost.

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