HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > St. Louis Blues
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Any interest in Ryder?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-15-2007, 06:51 PM
  #1
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Any interest in Ryder?

Here are my offers:

Ryder and 3rd for Jackman

Ryder and Ben Maxwell for Backman

Thoughts? Offers?

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 07:05 PM
  #2
BlueNhockeytown
Registered User
 
BlueNhockeytown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 275
vCash: 500
How about Brewer and Ruckinshky for Ryder and a 1st?

BlueNhockeytown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 07:18 PM
  #3
Prussian_Blue
Registered User
 
Prussian_Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Here are my offers:

Ryder and 3rd for Jackman

Ryder and Ben Maxwell for Backman

Thoughts? Offers?
I'll take the highlighted one.

Maxwell's been out of Kootenay's (WHL) lineup since October 22 with a thigh injury, but he still has 11 points in 11 games played, and is a quality prospect at center. Ryder's a two-time 30-goal man in the NHL.

I'll take that for Christian Backman. Any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

P_B


Prussian_Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 07:57 PM
  #4
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
I'll take the highlighted one.

Maxwell's been out of Kootenay's (WHL) lineup since October 22 with a thigh injury, but he still has 11 points in 11 games played, and is a quality prospect at center. Ryder's a two-time 30-goal man in the NHL.

I'll take that for Christian Backman. Any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

P_B

Maxwell is definitely a quality prospect. He has the upside to be a 2nd center in the NHL. The problem is that I don't see where he fit with Plekanec and Chipchura.

The Habs are a true 4th d-man away from having a really solid defense right now. I think that Backman would be fine in that role.

That's why I would be ready to part with Maxwell.

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 08:09 PM
  #5
PerryTurnbullfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Penalty Box
Country:
Posts: 2,213
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Maxwell is definitely a quality prospect. He has the upside to be a 2nd center in the NHL. The problem is that I don't see where he fit with Plekanec and Chipchura.

The Habs are a true 4th d-man away from having a really solid defense right now. I think that Backman would be fine in that role.

That's why I would be ready to part with Maxwell.
Call JD. Let's get er done!!

PerryTurnbullfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 08:41 PM
  #6
Wes McSnipes*
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 464
vCash: 500
Absolutely. Backman for Ryder and Maxwell would be great for the Blues. We would finally get Backman off of our hands, and we get a legitimate scorer in Ryder who has put up great numbers ever since coming into this league (averages like 30 goals and 60 points a year). We also get a solid prospect in Ben Maxwell, who's a center too. Would be nice to have him as a prospect.

I'd probably do Jackman for Ryder and a 3rd too. I'd be a little nervous to do this because of Ryder's slow start this season, but we have quality players on this team that he can play with, so I think he could improve our offense even more - which would make me pull the trigger on this trade. And I'll gladly take a 3rd rounder - you can still get some good players in that round. We have a surplus of d-men, and even though I like Jax, we could use another scorer, so I'd be okay with trading him.

Lots of interest from the Blues.

It'd be cool if the Blues and Habs could work out a deal. Your proposals look pretty good.

Wes McSnipes* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 09:47 PM
  #7
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
Absolutely. Backman for Ryder and Maxwell would be great for the Blues. We would finally get Backman off of our hands, and we get a legitimate scorer in Ryder who has put up great numbers ever since coming into this league (averages like 30 goals and 60 points a year). We also get a solid prospect in Ben Maxwell, who's a center too. Would be nice to have him as a prospect.

I'd probably do Jackman for Ryder and a 3rd too. I'd be a little nervous to do this because of Ryder's slow start this season, but we have quality players on this team that he can play with, so I think he could improve our offense even more - which would make me pull the trigger on this trade. And I'll gladly take a 3rd rounder - you can still get some good players in that round. We have a surplus of d-men, and even though I like Jax, we could use another scorer, so I'd be okay with trading him.

Lots of interest from the Blues.

It'd be cool if the Blues and Habs could work out a deal. Your proposals look pretty good.
With tonight game, the Habs showed that they have a really good potential...

I really think we are one d-man away from being a solid team. Backman would be great for me.

I didn't follow him this year as much as last year.

What do you have to say about him?

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2007, 11:54 PM
  #8
Wes McSnipes*
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 464
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
With tonight game, the Habs showed that they have a really good potential...

I really think we are one d-man away from being a solid team. Backman would be great for me.

I didn't follow him this year as much as last year.

What do you have to say about him?
Well, the label on the guy right now is "potential".

But it's been that way for quite a few years. The coaches and organization have been saying he has "potential" for quite some time now, and us Blues fans are just getting sick of it because he isn't the player we were hoping for. So, I really want to trade him, and maybe he just needs a change of scenary - I don't know.

He's an offensive d-man. His skating and stick-handling is questionable, but he is capable of putting in 10-15 goals a year and 30+ points while playing on a good offensive team - so he could be good for you guys, but he's just not playing too well for us.

Wes McSnipes* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 12:13 PM
  #9
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
Well, the label on the guy right now is "potential".

But it's been that way for quite a few years. The coaches and organization have been saying he has "potential" for quite some time now, and us Blues fans are just getting sick of it because he isn't the player we were hoping for. So, I really want to trade him, and maybe he just needs a change of scenary - I don't know.

He's an offensive d-man. His skating and stick-handling is questionable, but he is capable of putting in 10-15 goals a year and 30+ points while playing on a good offensive team - so he could be good for you guys, but he's just not playing too well for us.
How is his defensive play?

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 01:00 PM
  #10
Wes McSnipes*
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 464
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
How is his defensive play?
Awful.

He's 6'4'' but he can't play defense and he doesn't play physical.

The guy is an offensive d-man.

I'll tell you the truth - I'm not a Backman fan at all.

If you want a defensive d-man, then Jackman or Salvador would be great for your team.

Wes McSnipes* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 01:48 PM
  #11
PerryTurnbullfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Penalty Box
Country:
Posts: 2,213
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
Awful.

He's 6'4'' but he can't play defense and he doesn't play physical.

The guy is an offensive d-man.

I'll tell you the truth - I'm not a Backman fan at all.

If you want a defensive d-man, then Jackman or Salvador would be great for your team.
I'm going to disagree with you. If you look at his plus/minus over the past few years, then you will see he is right up there with the best the Blues have had. He has given us glimpses of a #2 or #3 defender, but has lost his luster lately. He is an excellent positional player. He has the best first pass/transitional play on the Blues roster in my opinion. If these two points were not the case, then why would they have Backman babysitting the rookie Wagner? Brewer couldn't do it. Jackman couldn't do it. McKee and Salvador both could, but then who would babysit Brewer and EJ? Jackman couldn't do it. Look at his +/-. The best alternative to babysit Wagner was Backman. He knows when to pinch and when not to. With Wagner as your partner, then you better really pick your spots. Wags is a good player and has a future in this league, but makes rookie coverage mistakes.

The minuses are that Backman does not play physical hardly at all. He has probably gotten too cautious playing defense based on his partners, and hasn't worried as much about creating offense. I don't know, if he is scared to take a penalty or what, but he will not tie up the opposition skating with them or from behind. Some times you have to take a penalty. He doesn't get beat on the rush. Generally, it is someone moving behind the net or from behind the net. The Blues new system leaves a mismatch around their own net. For what ever reason, the center never seems to come back and help in tight. Perhaps he is being somewhat misused here without the ideal partner and with AM's defensive system he just needs a change of scenary.

It is not that I don't like AM's system, it just doesn't work for everyone. For Example, Doug Weight

PerryTurnbullfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 02:48 PM
  #12
Wes McSnipes*
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 464
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I'm going to disagree with you. If you look at his plus/minus over the past few years, then you will see he is right up there with the best the Blues have had.
No he isn't. This statement right here is stupid. To say Backman is up there with the best the Blue have ever had is just plain dumb. Don't start comparing him to Pronger, MacInnis, etc.

Second, have you even LOOKED at his +/- over the years? He's had ONE good year in the +/- category, and that was last year where he was at 13.

Other than that, here are his stats:

02-03: -3
03-04: 3
05-06: -15
07-08: -5

Umm... yeah... what were you saying about him being among the best? On average, he's a -7 in his entire career.

But go ahead and keep thinking that he's right up there. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

A guy like Chris Pronger on the other hand has done great in the +/- category, as he's a +150 in his career.

And you want to compare them? Don't even put Backman near the top. His defensive play is just awful, and you know it. Sorry, but what a ridiculous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan
He has given us glimpses of a #2 or #3 defender, but has lost his luster lately. He is an excellent positional player. He has the best first pass/transitional play on the Blues roster in my opinion. If these two points were not the case, then why would they have Backman babysitting the rookie Wagner? Brewer couldn't do it. Jackman couldn't do it. McKee and Salvador both could, but then who would babysit Brewer and EJ? Jackman couldn't do it. Look at his +/-. The best alternative to babysit Wagner was Backman. He knows when to pinch and when not to. With Wagner as your partner, then you better really pick your spots. Wags is a good player and has a future in this league, but makes rookie coverage mistakes.
Are you just trying to make the Habs fans think he's good or something? #2 or #3 defender? Nice try. More like #5 or #6.

Excellent positional player? He's always out of position. He can never cover his man. For example, did you see him up against Ryan Smyth last week? That proves my point.

Best first pass? Nah... other players like EJ, Jackman, etc make much better passes. Nice try though.

Wagner makes rookie mistakes, but Backman isn't any better.

You want me to look at their +/-?
Ok, I will...

Wagner is at an even 0.
And Jackman is struggling this year, but let's look at his other years:

+23 in 02-03. +20 in 06-07. +24 in his career.

And you still want to call Backman one of the better Blues' defenders? Still wanna say he's up near the top in +/-?

Seriously, DO YOU EVEN LOOK AT THEIR STATS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan
The minuses are that Backman does not play physical hardly at all. He has probably gotten too cautious playing defense based on his partners, and hasn't worried as much about creating offense. I don't know, if he is scared to take a penalty or what, but he will not tie up the opposition skating with them or from behind. Some times you have to take a penalty. He doesn't get beat on the rush. Generally, it is someone moving behind the net or from behind the net. The Blues new system leaves a mismatch around their own net. For what ever reason, the center never seems to come back and help in tight. Perhaps he is being somewhat misused here without the ideal partner and with AM's defensive system he just needs a change of scenary.

It is not that I don't like AM's system, it just doesn't work for everyone. For Example, Doug Weight
Exactly.

Backman sucks.

There are very few positives about him, and a lot of negatives.

Maybe he does need a change of scenary, but you can't say he's good because he's awful. Bad skater, bad positional player, bad stick-handling, can't play physical, doesn't know how to cover his man, his shot has weakened, etc... the list goes on and on. He's pretty bad.

Wes McSnipes* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 03:00 PM
  #13
Stealth JD
Drexel's dead!!!
 
Stealth JD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Safari Motor Motel
Country: United States
Posts: 6,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I'm going to disagree with you. If you look at his plus/minus over the past few years, then you will see he is right up there with the best the Blues have had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
No he isn't. This statement right here is stupid. To say Backman is up there with the best the Blue have ever had is just plain dumb. Don't start comparing him to Pronger, MacInnis, etc.
Wes...I think you misunderstood what Perry was saying about Backman. He's referring to the last few years...not the entire history of the organization. That said, I'd be happy to see Backman moved...but my opinion of him is closer to Perry's than to that of yours. No need to call anyone's comments stupid...

Stealth JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 03:01 PM
  #14
Irish Blues
____________________
 
Irish Blues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country: St Helena
Posts: 21,804
vCash: 500
1. Ignore that +/- for 2005-06. That was just a bad season for everyone, it's hard to draw anything meaningful from that year.

2. That -3 was in 2002-03, in 4 games. Late in the season, I think. See "comments on 2005-06" on how meaningful using it is.

3. You conveniently neglected to mention he was +13 last year.

4. He's not an average -7 per year for his career, he's -7 total for his career.

__________________
No promises this time.
Irish Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 03:09 PM
  #15
Wes McSnipes*
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 464
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
1. Ignore that +/- for 2005-06. That was just a bad season for everyone, it's hard to draw anything meaningful from that year.
I'm still counting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
2. That -3 was in 2002-03, in 4 games. Late in the season, I think. See "comments on 2005-06" on how meaningful using it is.
Never did I say it was "meaningful" Irish. I was just listing his stats.

Is that hard to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
3. You conveniently neglected to mention he was +13 last year.
Oh really? Or maybe you just can't read?

I did mention it:

Quote:
Second, have you even LOOKED at his +/- over the years? He's had ONE good year in the +/- category, and that was last year where he was at 13.
... Thanks for bringing it up though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
4. He's not an average -7 per year for his career, he's -7 total for his career.
That's what I'm saying. Whatever, I worded it differently. You should know what I mean.

Wes McSnipes* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 03:30 PM
  #16
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Honestly, the Habs need an offensive d-man who can also play a solid game defensively.

I would take the guy between Jackman and Backman who can bring this to the team.

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 03:36 PM
  #17
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Here are my offers:

Ryder and 3rd for Jackman

Ryder and Ben Maxwell for Backman

Thoughts? Offers?
Don't we have official authority to conclude trades here?

Ryder and Maxwell for Backman - YES, YES, YES

execwrite is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 04:33 PM
  #18
PerryTurnbullfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Penalty Box
Country:
Posts: 2,213
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
That's what I'm saying. Whatever, I worded it differently. You should know what I mean.
As Jackman's Domain said, you also took my words out of context. No need to throw rocks bro. I meant at the time. He is no Pronger, MacInnis, Brown, etc. plug in whoever you want except what we have now. If you have read any of my posts, then you should know I don't think him or anyone else on this team is that special. EJ will be.

If you watched the game Avalanche game, then you also notice that Backman was with Smyth behind the net. Smyth stopped on a dime. Reversed coarse, went in front of the net and scored. Smyth gets paid alot for a reason. The other big stinker of a goal that Backman let score. He was playing his position and was with his man. He skated right along side of him and didn't touch him with his body or his stick. Just like a figure skating partner. He did a nice job setting up a goal later in the game. I'm not a huge Backman fan, but he is a serviceable guy with some offense skills that hasn't lived up to his billing yet.

Brewer on the other hand, left his side to chase the same person that Salvador was and stayed there on the opposite the puck was on. Leaving Tkachuk to deal with one man behind the net and one camped in front of it. Not playing his position. Bigger disappointment as a first round pick.

I am also a big Jackman fan. If you are being honest with yourself and everyone else, then you can admit that he is having an off year. His +/- is just as horrible as his play this year. After Brad May broke his jaw, he hasn't played with the same fire as in the past. He really picked it up last year, but this contract year thing must be weighing on him.

I would like to see Backman get traded. I would rent the U-haul, if it was Brewer. Jackman would be a day of mourning.

PerryTurnbullfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-16-2007, 04:57 PM
  #19
Irish Blues
____________________
 
Irish Blues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country: St Helena
Posts: 21,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes McSnipes View Post
Oh really? Or maybe you just can't read?

I did mention it:
OK, fine - you mentioned it. You could do it by simply pointing it out instead of making a remark that was equivalent to a .

If we're counting 2005-06, do we treat Wideman's 8-16-24 as a sign he could be a 70-80 point guy on a good team when he's in his prime? Do we assume that because Jay McClement was -23, he's a piss poor defensive player? Does Matt Walker's -7 in a year where only 3 other players who played at least 30 games was above -10 indicate he's a good defensive defenseman? Do I conclude that Jesse Boulerice's -8 shows how good defensively he was compared to everyone else on the roster?

There's a hell of a lot of conclusions that can be drawn simply by looking at the raw stats of Blues players from the 2005-06 season - and many of them would be wildly incorrect.

Irish Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 03:44 AM
  #20
Bluester
Registered User
 
Bluester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kansas City, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 960
vCash: 500
Can someone foward the above offer to both the blues and habs front office so we can get this done.

Bluester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 11:04 AM
  #21
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,073
vCash: 500
Stats are great way for players to look back on their careers. They might even still be useful for agents and lawyers when it comes to arbitrations. They definately don't tell you **** about a hockey player.

If we based stats on an offensive linemans worth in the NFL those men would be worthless and that couldn't be further from the truth.

The only ONLY way to judge a hockey player is by how they play on the ice and it isn't on any given night or for any given season...

At the end of the day, stats don't mean ****.

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 01:15 PM
  #22
General Veers
Registered User
 
General Veers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 1,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
Stats are great way for players to look back on their careers. They might even still be useful for agents and lawyers when it comes to arbitrations. They definately don't tell you **** about a hockey player.

If we based stats on an offensive linemans worth in the NFL those men would be worthless and that couldn't be further from the truth.

The only ONLY way to judge a hockey player is by how they play on the ice and it isn't on any given night or for any given season...

At the end of the day, stats don't mean ****.
Saying "stats don't mean ****" implies they have 0% value. You have to acknowledge at least a SLIGHT value in them. Not sure what the hell you're talking about with O-linemen, they have a little stat called "pancakes" which gives a better idea of their dominance(or lack thereof) when matched with RB yards, # of QB sacks, etc. Most pancakes are given when an O-lineman is in the 2nd level of the D and run blocking, therefore a T or G with a lot of them invariably has a RB with high #'s.

General Veers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 02:25 PM
  #23
ChuckyToGally
Former Carey Roy
 
ChuckyToGally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluester View Post
Can someone foward the above offer to both the blues and habs front office so we can get this done.
Done

ChuckyToGally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 05:00 PM
  #24
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVTEC View Post
Saying "stats don't mean ****" implies they have 0% value. You have to acknowledge at least a SLIGHT value in them. Not sure what the hell you're talking about with O-linemen, they have a little stat called "pancakes" which gives a better idea of their dominance(or lack thereof) when matched with RB yards, # of QB sacks, etc. Most pancakes are given when an O-lineman is in the 2nd level of the D and run blocking, therefore a T or G with a lot of them invariably has a RB with high #'s.
stats are all subjective. You can pour over them as long as you'd like but they don't indicate what a players attributes are.

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2007, 07:51 PM
  #25
Prussian_Blue
Registered User
 
Prussian_Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
stats are all subjective. You can pour over them as long as you'd like but they don't indicate what a players attributes are.
T'ain't necessarily so, Zaph.

Stats are not the be-all and end-all to player evaluation, but you can infer some of a player's attributes from his stats, especially when taken in the context of the other players on his team.

For example, if you have a defenseman who has few goals but a lot of assists, and you note that he plays on the power play a lot (easy to get that stat nowadays), and you note that the other guys on his team who play roughly the same amount of time on the PP have a lot of goals, you can make a pretty reasonable inference that said defenseman probably has a good, hard, accurate shot that gets through for tip-ins and rebounds.

That's one example of inferring attributes from stats, right off the top of my head. I'm sure our knowledgeable poster base can come up wth a few more.

P_B


Prussian_Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:45 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.