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I wish Renney wasn't so stubborn....

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Old
12-20-2007, 08:34 AM
  #26
94now
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Originally Posted by DarrenTurcotte8 View Post
...because he really has done a lot of good things for this team and the organization. However, the following glaring weaknesses will prevent this current team from winning the Stanley Cup, whoch we all know at season's beginning was a legitimate goal for the franchise.

1) His dedication to the 4th line: I love Blair Betts..He's the prototypical 4th liner..He's good at faceoffs, blocks shots, great in the corners and even musters a scoring chance every now and then. Unfortunately, his linemates are TERRIBLE!!!!!!! No excuse whatsoever, to put players like Orr and Hollweg on the ice immediately after the Rangers score a goal. The experiment has failed miserably...And I hate it when MSG goes on and on about how "good" the 4th line has played and that Colton Orr is "trying to be more than a fighter" ??????????????????????? Are you kidding me? If this were 1991, pre-expansion, guys like Orr and Hollweg wouldn't even be in the ECHL!!!!!! More like the UHL or the WPHL!!!

My solution is move Prucha and Callahan to the fourth line..It'll have speed, tenacity, solid grinders and all three have no problem throwing the body. Give them all PK time and they should get around 11-13 mins a game. Even though Prucha and Callahan have shown they are capable of scoring goals in bunches, the rangers are so deep at forward that it makes sense to move them down.

so:

Straka-Drury-Jagr -- I love Dubinky's game, but by the time the playoffs roll around, this line should have great chemistry

Avery-Gomez-Shanhan -- Money line. Literally and figureatively. No need for changes.

Dawes-Dubinsky-Hossa -- I know about the Isles game where Hossa gaffed, but seriously, he hjas become reliable defensively. Dawes is a bonafide sniper and Dubinsky has proven he knows how to get the puck to people, even if those people who wear #68 REFUSE TO SHOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jagr's struggles are a whole new thread. Stay tuned

Prucha-Betts-Callahan -- It'll work...trust me.

2) Renney has no game plan for when the Rangers have the lead late in games. Did you know that the Rangers' defense leads the NHL is shots allowed from the slot???? The late-game odd man rushes are totally inexcusable. The coverage down low is as good as it was in 2001, and don't get me started on the decision-making with outlet passes. The Rangers never press, and even in the Ottawa game, they were back on their heels the whole 3rd pd..Oh, did I mention that the 4th line got a regular shift that game...IN THE THIRD PERIOD!!!!!!!!

3) The power play is terrible because they simply don't shooot the puck. watch any other team in the top 15 operate on the PP...They gun it at the net...lots of one-timers from the point and high slot during 5-on-3's...Buffalo, Detroit and MTL do this a lot and it works. The Rangers draw a lot of penalties, so you know the effort is there, but they have to make opponents pay for slowing down their game. Get Roszival off the 1st unit...It should be Staal and Girardi because both have great offensive instincts around the net, and Staal has a gun from the blue line.
That is why Renney should pay no attention what fans are thinking. Their hockey knowledge is well demonstrated in trivia answers every game.
FYI, Blair Betts is our best centre as of today. Hollweg-Betts-Orr is Rangers most reliable line. We are truly blessed to have Marek Malik as a spare defenseman. That speaks for our depth in stay-at-home Ds.
I think you pull your "shots from the slot" stat out of your ass. Please provide the link. I will apologize then.
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what does it take to score on PP in NHL. Therefore your suggestions to shoot more, one-time the shot etc. comes from junior hockey approach. Keep in mind that shooting the puck is the best way to turn it over. If team plays puck possession game ( and on PP every team does so) , player have to think twice before attempting the shot. The shot at the net must be done only when you have a reasonable scoring chance. BTW, someone have to tell Mr. Micheletti to shut up. He is really annoying with his "shoot more" comments.
You put Staal AND Girardi on points and will get shorthanded goals against. Plus will easily get kid's confidence burnt for a very long time. Rangers do a commendable job on Girardi and Staal. Their development is more important then PP production anyway.

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12-20-2007, 08:58 AM
  #27
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When you're most reliable line...

has a collective two goals,the worst +/- on the season and plays about 7-8 minutes per game, you're going to have problems.

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12-20-2007, 09:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
That is why Renney should pay no attention what fans are thinking. Their hockey knowledge is well demonstrated in trivia answers every game.
FYI, Blair Betts is our best centre as of today. Hollweg-Betts-Orr is Rangers most reliable line. We are truly blessed to have Marek Malik as a spare defenseman. That speaks for our depth in stay-at-home Ds.
I think you pull your "shots from the slot" stat out of your ass. Please provide the link. I will apologize then.
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what does it take to score on PP in NHL. Therefore your suggestions to shoot more, one-time the shot etc. comes from junior hockey approach. Keep in mind that shooting the puck is the best way to turn it over. If team plays puck possession game ( and on PP every team does so) , player have to think twice before attempting the shot. The shot at the net must be done only when you have a reasonable scoring chance. BTW, someone have to tell Mr. Micheletti to shut up. He is really annoying with his "shoot more" comments.
You put Staal AND Girardi on points and will get shorthanded goals against. Plus will easily get kid's confidence burnt for a very long time. Rangers do a commendable job on Girardi and Staal. Their development is more important then PP production anyway.
I think when the whole puck possession thing is not and has not been working, just putting the puck on net sometimes is a good way to get things started for a rebound. Im sure everyone would love to see the pretty tic tac toe scoring, however when thats not working try plan B. Shoot.

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12-20-2007, 09:07 AM
  #29
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Shooting is good...

when it's planned. Too often the shooting has occurred with noone in position for a rebound and when that occurs, the opposition has a chance for a quick transition the other way. While tic-tac-doe is nice, I agree it's not necessary, but one needs to think through throwing pucks at the net too.

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12-20-2007, 09:12 AM
  #30
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Fletch... Absolutely, there has to be bodies in front of the net for a rebound or deflection. I think there has been a little too much of trying to make the perfect play for the easy tap in.

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12-20-2007, 09:21 AM
  #31
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There has...

also, when the Rangers were having a lot of trouble scoring, we saw Shanny taking 6-7 shots per game - from just inside the blueline, and he was the only Ranger inside the blue line. I understand you agree with my point, but that's my reference for that thought.

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12-20-2007, 09:27 AM
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i 100% agree with the lines you layed out. nice goin

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12-20-2007, 09:46 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmieder44 View Post
I think when the whole puck possession thing is not and has not been working, just putting the puck on net sometimes is a good way to get things started for a rebound. Im sure everyone would love to see the pretty tic tac toe scoring, however when thats not working try plan B. Shoot.

Plan B sucks. That is why it is not plan A. I'd rather keep trying plan A. Otherwise we would be always dump and chase or shoot and see team. Those make a playoffs at best.


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12-20-2007, 09:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
has a collective two goals,the worst +/- on the season and plays about 7-8 minutes per game, you're going to have problems.
We do, don't we? Does that defeat my point? Hardly. We need to improve our top 6. Leave bottom 6 alone.

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12-20-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
has a collective two goals,the worst +/- on the season and plays about 7-8 minutes per game, you're going to have problems.
Its a bit unfortunate that NHL don't keep track of the + and - separated from each other, besides +/-.

Betts and Co. don't got good +/-, but I do got the impression that they have been pretty solid defensivly. IE, there haven't been many goals scored against per minute when they have been on the ice. There +/- is negative because they don't score many goals.

Niedermayer-Påhlsson-Moen did not have good +/- last season, on one of the best teams in the league. Påhlsson and Moen was -4 during the regular season, and Rob Niedermayer was -8. They might have been on for like 25 goals forward, and 30 goals against during 80 games, playing like 18 minutes per night against the best line of the other team. So while their +/- was poor, their "-" against was tremendous. Like they probably played a avg of 60 minutes between goals against.

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12-20-2007, 10:04 AM
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If I were to guess...

Orr's about a -12 and a +2, resulting in a -10.

They have been solid defensively. But realize this, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of their ice time is against fourth lines. Somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 is against top lines. So if they're averaging about 4 minutes against top lines per game and have had 12 goals scored on them, I'm not sure that's real good.

I don't have the exact stats, but I've noticed plenty of fourth line shifts against the likes of Brashear, Laroque, etc., and have seen the Rangers' top and third lines go against top lines a fair amount of times, so it's not like they're really shutting down top lines in the sense we're used to hearing it. Especially when the top lines play about twice as much as the fourth line.

I do acknowledge that getting them to face top lines and getting Jagr and others a rest from top lines is a decent strategy, and it has been effective, but I'm just not sure how far I'd go in saying how good that line is defensively as a shutdown line. I would not want to see them out there 14-15 minutes per game over an 82-game schedule. Renney's been using them quite well.

And one thing to add, ola - there are a couple other big components of a good shutdown line, as we know. The defense pairing and the goaltender. As you know, the defensemen often cover the wings and the centerman shadows the centerman, and the other wings support and watch the defensemen on the other team (breaking down to a very simple form understanding it's pretty complex). Henrik has been quite good, and for the most part, the defense pairings have been quite good too.

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12-20-2007, 10:06 AM
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94...

not aruguing, just pointing out some stats.

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12-20-2007, 10:10 AM
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94...

I believe the Rangers as a whole are a -7.

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12-20-2007, 10:19 AM
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I believe the Rangers as a whole are a -7.
Well, that includes Valiquette then. Anyway, we are 4 above .500 and projected to get 92 points. Not bad for one of the best goaltending in the NHL.

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12-21-2007, 07:38 AM
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Plan B sucks. That is why it is not plan A. I'd rather keep trying plan A. Otherwise we would be always dump and chase or shoot and see team. Those make a playoffs at best.
I did clarify that it was when the quick passing hasnt been working just keep it simple and put the put on net. with bodies around you get deflections, screens, rebounds etc. To be honest i much prefer seeing the shannahan or the second power play unit out there than the jagr unit.

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12-21-2007, 10:11 AM
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Malik is a hockey version of Cosmo Kramer
I laughed so hard I cried at this comparison - thanks.

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12-21-2007, 10:32 AM
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That is why Renney should pay no attention what fans are thinking. Their hockey knowledge is well demonstrated in trivia answers every game.
FYI, Blair Betts is our best centre as of today. Hollweg-Betts-Orr is Rangers most reliable line. We are truly blessed to have Marek Malik as a spare defenseman. That speaks for our depth in stay-at-home Ds.
I think you pull your "shots from the slot" stat out of your ass. Please provide the link. I will apologize then.
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what does it take to score on PP in NHL. Therefore your suggestions to shoot more, one-time the shot etc. comes from junior hockey approach. Keep in mind that shooting the puck is the best way to turn it over. If team plays puck possession game ( and on PP every team does so) , player have to think twice before attempting the shot. The shot at the net must be done only when you have a reasonable scoring chance. BTW, someone have to tell Mr. Micheletti to shut up. He is really annoying with his "shoot more" comments.
You put Staal AND Girardi on points and will get shorthanded goals against. Plus will easily get kid's confidence burnt for a very long time. Rangers do a commendable job on Girardi and Staal. Their development is more important then PP production anyway.
1) I never said anything is wrong with Betts. There are a lot of things wrong with his current skill-less linemates. I guess you missed the part where I wrote "I LOVE BLAIR BETTS" and detailed what I think he adds to the Rangers. And if the 4th line is "reliable", I just want to know what we can rely on them for? I know we can rely on Betts for faceoffs and blocked shots. But what about Hollweg? Oh, I see. He's really reliable when you want the puck to jump over his stick on an odd-man rush, and he's even more reliable when you want him to blow coverage and make ill-time line changes when the other team has puck possession in the offensive zone. And Orr, he's really reliable when you want the Rangers shorthanded at the end of a period.

2) The Rangers are "blessed" to have Malik in the press box??? With his salary??? I guess we are also "blessed to have Kaspar still on the books, and the Yankees are "blessed' to have Pavano. I guess the 94 team was "blessed" to have Barry Richter and Joby Messier. There's a reason why Malik is wearing Armani suits on gamenight, and trust me, it's not because he's an asset. Name me a game or a period or even a shift malik has won for this team since the 2005 shootout??? Keep thinking.

3) I don't make up stats. Nov. 27th issue of The Hockey News, page 46, lower left-hand corner. The stat reads "PERCENTAGE OF SHOTS AGAINST COMING FROM THE SLOT".....Minny, as of late November, allowed 19.2 percent of the shots against from the slot....Detroit was near the bottom at 30.8...and the Rangers, god bless them, dead last in the NHL at 33.3 percent..Considering how poor they have played since early december, it's safe to say the stat hasn't changed much or has gotten worse. Gaborik last night certainly didn't help. Once again, it's the Hockey News, Nov 27th, Vol. 61, No. 10, with Kane and Toews on the cover. If you want, i can scan it and email it to you.

4) As for my advice for the PP, I suggest you get NHL Center ice and spend a few mins a night watching other teams in the league operate a PP. I guess the Detroit Red Wings coaching staff must really like the "junior hockey approach" when it comes to the PP, as well as Dallas and MTL. Wait a minute, we scored a PPG last night against Minny from a one timer. Man, those guys in junior hockey sure are smart.

5) If you are worried about Staal's confidence, you shouldn't. A few SH breakaways against won't rattle that kid. He won't regress. As for Girardi, I suggest, once again, you watch a few Ranger games. His confidence is GONE right now, and it has noting to do with what he does/did on the power pay. Besides, Giradi and Toots are doing just fine allowing breakaways, 2-on-1's and scoring chances at even strength. They don't need mistakes on the PP to mess up their "confidence".

Do you remember the 1994 Rangers. Well, like this team, they were designed to win a Stanley Cup, and were the NHL's best almost the whole season. Right before the trading deadline, they Rangers hosted the Blackhawks on an ESPN sunday night game and got destroyed, gave up six or seven goals, and were booed off the ice. The best team in the NHL!!!!! Booed off the ice by their own fans!!!! Amonte barely played after the 1st period, gartner was shoved to the 4th line, and Kovalev was given 5-min shifts. They were outhit, outhustled and Richter was left by himself. It's safe to say that had the Rangers not played like crap the first two weeks of March of 1994, there would have been no Matteu or Noonan or Anderson or MacTavish, even though Keenan hated gartner and Amonte from the start of the season. The shakeup worked, as we all know.

My point is that this current team needs a shakeup if it wants to seriously content for the Cup, which as a Rangers fan I expect in 2008. The only thing that will get us into the playoffs is our goaltending. Is it enough to win a Cup??? Absolutely not.

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12-21-2007, 10:36 AM
  #43
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Well, that includes Valiquette then. Anyway, we are 4 above .500 and projected to get 92 points. Not bad for one of the best goaltending in the NHL.
Rangers are 17-14-3. That would be 37 of 68 points. 0.544.

In the other way 3 games above .500 they'd technically be 0.548 not a huge difference, but there is one. They are less than 3 games above .500.

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12-21-2007, 10:39 AM
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I think when the whole puck possession thing is not and has not been working, just putting the puck on net sometimes is a good way to get things started for a rebound. Im sure everyone would love to see the pretty tic tac toe scoring, however when thats not working try plan B. Shoot.


This is very obvious, but the problem is most people don't pay enough attention to the fact that THERE ARE RARELY SHOOTING LANES. It's one thing to say, "get the puck on net. good things will happen." That's all well and good and I agree with it. The problem is, if you're looking at the power play most of the time, there's no way most shots are getting through. That's why, as witnessed last night with Rosi's goal, the key is QUICK passing to get those guys to move their feet. Shootings great. But there's gotta be some chance of the puck getting on net.

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12-21-2007, 10:48 AM
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This is very obvious, but the problem is most people don't pay enough attention to the fact that THERE ARE RARELY SHOOTING LANES. It's one thing to say, "get the puck on net. good things will happen." That's all well and good and I agree with it. The problem is, if you're looking at the power play most of the time, there's no way most shots are getting through. That's why, as witnessed last night with Rosi's goal, the key is QUICK passing to get those guys to move their feet. Shootings great. But there's gotta be some chance of the puck getting on net.
Quick passing and lots of movement. If you watch the replay you can see how Prucha and Straka moving through the middle of the box really made the PKers move. Then by passing to Dubinsky they all were scrambling to get to the guy behind the net. Then the two pointmen (Jagr & Rozsival) were wide open.

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12-21-2007, 11:02 AM
  #46
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1) I never said anything is wrong with Betts. There are a lot of things wrong with his current skill-less linemates. I guess you missed the part where I wrote "I LOVE BLAIR BETTS" and detailed what I think he adds to the Rangers. And if the 4th line is "reliable", I just want to know what we can rely on them for? I know we can rely on Betts for faceoffs and blocked shots. But what about Hollweg? Oh, I see. He's really reliable when you want the puck to jump over his stick on an odd-man rush, and he's even more reliable when you want him to blow coverage and make ill-time line changes when the other team has puck possession in the offensive zone. And Orr, he's really reliable when you want the Rangers shorthanded at the end of a period.

2) The Rangers are "blessed" to have Malik in the press box??? With his salary??? I guess we are also "blessed to have Kaspar still on the books, and the Yankees are "blessed' to have Pavano. I guess the 94 team was "blessed" to have Barry Richter and Joby Messier. There's a reason why Malik is wearing Armani suits on gamenight, and trust me, it's not because he's an asset. Name me a game or a period or even a shift malik has won for this team since the 2005 shootout??? Keep thinking.

3) I don't make up stats. Nov. 27th issue of The Hockey News, page 46, lower left-hand corner. The stat reads "PERCENTAGE OF SHOTS AGAINST COMING FROM THE SLOT".....Minny, as of late November, allowed 19.2 percent of the shots against from the slot....Detroit was near the bottom at 30.8...and the Rangers, god bless them, dead last in the NHL at 33.3 percent..Considering how poor they have played since early december, it's safe to say the stat hasn't changed much or has gotten worse. Gaborik last night certainly didn't help. Once again, it's the Hockey News, Nov 27th, Vol. 61, No. 10, with Kane and Toews on the cover. If you want, i can scan it and email it to you.

4) As for my advice for the PP, I suggest you get NHL Center ice and spend a few mins a night watching other teams in the league operate a PP. I guess the Detroit Red Wings coaching staff must really like the "junior hockey approach" when it comes to the PP, as well as Dallas and MTL. Wait a minute, we scored a PPG last night against Minny from a one timer. Man, those guys in junior hockey sure are smart.

5) If you are worried about Staal's confidence, you shouldn't. A few SH breakaways against won't rattle that kid. He won't regress. As for Girardi, I suggest, once again, you watch a few Ranger games. His confidence is GONE right now, and it has noting to do with what he does/did on the power pay. Besides, Giradi and Toots are doing just fine allowing breakaways, 2-on-1's and scoring chances at even strength. They don't need mistakes on the PP to mess up their "confidence".

Do you remember the 1994 Rangers. Well, like this team, they were designed to win a Stanley Cup, and were the NHL's best almost the whole season. Right before the trading deadline, they Rangers hosted the Blackhawks on an ESPN sunday night game and got destroyed, gave up six or seven goals, and were booed off the ice. The best team in the NHL!!!!! Booed off the ice by their own fans!!!! Amonte barely played after the 1st period, gartner was shoved to the 4th line, and Kovalev was given 5-min shifts. They were outhit, outhustled and Richter was left by himself. It's safe to say that had the Rangers not played like crap the first two weeks of March of 1994, there would have been no Matteu or Noonan or Anderson or MacTavish, even though Keenan hated gartner and Amonte from the start of the season. The shakeup worked, as we all know.

My point is that this current team needs a shakeup if it wants to seriously content for the Cup, which as a Rangers fan I expect in 2008. The only thing that will get us into the playoffs is our goaltending. Is it enough to win a Cup??? Absolutely not.
1) We do not have personnel to upgrade Hollweg and Orr. We need scorers to score, not to play with Betts. That line is a D-line, they are not to score. If you want to improve scoring look at top 6. Betts line are young players that could be tailored to Renneys needs. Orr has improved. He improved a lot. The assumption here is he is not done. So is Hollweg. Therefore the improvement of their performance must and will be undertaken through hard work as opposed to replacement. Up until proven otherwise. You didn't do that.
2) Your sarcasm is not convincing. Malik is cheap believe you or not and I do not care about Dolan's money whatsoever. We can get 2nd rounder for him any time. Stay-at-home Ds are never extra, unless their name is Darius.
3) I believe you. Please accept my apology.
4) Yes we scored from the point. So did Wilds. They, however, did more then that. That is what we have to learn to do reliably, not just rid of the puck by shooting it.

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12-21-2007, 11:21 AM
  #47
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1) We do not have personnel to upgrade Hollweg and Orr. We need scorers to score, not to play with Betts. That line is a D-line, they are not to score. If you want to improve scoring look at top 6. Betts line are young players that could be tailored to Renneys needs. Orr has improved. He improved a lot. The assumption here is he is not done. So is Hollweg. Therefore the improvement of their performance must and will be undertaken through hard work as opposed to replacement. Up until proven otherwise. You didn't do that.
2) Your sarcasm is not convincing. Malik is cheap believe you or not and I do not care about Dolan's money whatsoever. We can get 2nd rounder for him any time. Stay-at-home Ds are never extra, unless their name is Darius.
3) I believe you. Please accept my apology.
4) Yes we scored from the point. So did Wilds. They, however, did more then that. That is what we have to learn to do reliably, not just rid of the puck by shooting it.
94, you still playing on the Jakes?

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12-21-2007, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
1) We do not have personnel to upgrade Hollweg and Orr. We need scorers to score, not to play with Betts. That line is a D-line, they are not to score. If you want to improve scoring look at top 6. Betts line are young players that could be tailored to Renneys needs. Orr has improved. He improved a lot. The assumption here is he is not done. So is Hollweg. Therefore the improvement of their performance must and will be undertaken through hard work as opposed to replacement. Up until proven otherwise. You didn't do that.
2) Your sarcasm is not convincing. Malik is cheap believe you or not and I do not care about Dolan's money whatsoever. We can get 2nd rounder for him any time. Stay-at-home Ds are never extra, unless their name is Darius.
3) I believe you. Please accept my apology.
4) Yes we scored from the point. So did Wilds. They, however, did more then that. That is what we have to learn to do reliably, not just rid of the puck by shooting it.
Then I guess we'll agree to diagree. I personally think that Hollweg and orr have reached their ceiling, and that Orr should never play more minutes than Dawes or Callhan, which was the case the other night. As for Malik, his psyche is shot, and he needs a new change of scenery. If he does net a 2nd-rounder in return, it'll probably be from a West team because I can't see a team from our conference giving up a high round pick for a player who is prone to major defensive lapses in his own zone and is booed incessantly by his own fans. The power play, however, needs to shoot more. At least 3-5 more shots a game would make me happy.

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12-21-2007, 02:34 PM
  #49
The Perfect Paradox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
I think Renney should try Jagr-Straka-Prucha, Prucha loves to play with Jagr, maybe it gets both of them going.
ive been saying that since october. Didn't Prucha play with Jagr in 05-06 as well?

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12-22-2007, 01:02 AM
  #50
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Renney

Every game I get more and more fed up with Tom Renney. Why is it that the 4th line has been averaging 12 minutes of ice time a game? They are not a shut down line at all, Colton Orr should not be out there against opposing teams top lines its ridiculous. Everytime there out there they either get trapped in there own soon, give up quality scoring opportunity's or take stupid penalties. After we score a goal the 4th line goes on the ice! Renney should put any other line out there to keep the opposing team on there heals. It's pathetic how we have so much offensive ability on the team but Renney plays a ******** defensive system. Maybe if we played an offensive system we would score alot more goals and also have a happy Jagr back....just a thought

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