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Talent: Flyers versus Devils

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Old
12-16-2007, 10:58 PM
  #26
decadentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love View Post
If salary is not a concern, I'd trade Zubrus and Madden for Briere and Richards in a heartbeat, and if we're talking about a healthy Gagne I'd trade Langenbrunner for him.
Is this sarcasm?


Edit: Sorry I thought this was from a Flyers perspective.

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Old
12-16-2007, 11:03 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Is this sarcasm?


Edit: Sorry I thought this was from a Flyers perspective.
Yeah... wouldn't everyone trade those three for the three Devils, Doc? Besides, you're talking the three top forwards on Philadelphia and not comparing them to the three best comparables on the Devils.

Now, I'm not entirely sure who the three best comparables on the Devils would be... definitely Parise and Richards, Gagne and ... Elias, I guess, and Briere and ... uh, Gionta? Madden, I guess. Flyers still win, but it's closer than before, at least.

After that, the Devils have Langenbrunner, Gionta, Zubrus, Zajac... and I'll take them over Carter, Hartnell, Lupul, and Knuble (I think those would be the next four for Philadelphia).

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Old
12-16-2007, 11:49 PM
  #28
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I think our talent sans the goalie totally outclasses the Devils. However, that team knows how to win and they always have. Add to the mix a superb coach and that's why they are a better team than we are. I was a Stevens supporter, but he's losing mine rather quickly, this Flyers team does not have the stamp of a winning team. What it does have is bushels full of talent and offensive firepower, which is going to waste with inconsistent efforts and poor system play

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:08 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Yeah... wouldn't everyone trade those three for the three Devils, Doc? Besides, you're talking the three top forwards on Philadelphia and not comparing them to the three best comparables on the Devils.

Now, I'm not entirely sure who the three best comparables on the Devils would be... definitely Parise and Richards, Gagne and ... Elias, I guess, and Briere and ... uh, Gionta? Madden, I guess. Flyers still win, but it's closer than before, at least.

After that, the Devils have Langenbrunner, Gionta, Zubrus, Zajac... and I'll take them over Carter, Hartnell, Lupul, and Knuble (I think those would be the next four for Philadelphia).
That's what I am getting at.

If you would trade Elias, Parise, Gionta, Zajac, Zubrus, Madden, and Langenbrunner

for

Briere, Richards, Lupul, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, and Knuble

then you can say the Flyers are more talented at forward. If not, then not.

And I am not sure Gagne belongs in the conversation since the Flyers record without him is significantly worse that without him.

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kz View Post
I think our talent sans the goalie totally outclasses the Devils.
By no reasonable measure can one conclude that.

I'm not sure the defenses are even comparable. Jersey's personnel are better right now. I'm not even sure it's arguable. The Flyers might not see more than tow or three teams this year where their defense "totally outclasses" their opponent's.

And on offense with Gagne it looks close to a dead heat to me, but had Gagne been in the lineup over the past month, we'd likely not be having this conversation.

Let me state it this way:

Say Mars' Red Planet Army hockey team lands on Earth tomorrow. Say they state: "We'll play one game of hockey. You win - we leave. We win - every human spends the rest of his days minig coal while listening to Celine Dion albums."

The Martians say: "You are the coach. Your team can be either the New Jersey Devils or the Philadelphia Flyers. One game. All marbles. Which personnel do you want?"

Which would you choose?

Unless it's an easy and obvious choice then the apparently common belief (not necessarily yours, KZ) around here that the Flyers are four points out of first in their division with two games in hand because their coach is totally incompetent is laughably asinine.


Last edited by JXC: 12-17-2007 at 12:26 AM.
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Old
12-17-2007, 12:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
By no reasonable measure can one conclude that.

I'm not sure the defenses are even comparable. Jersey's personnel are better right now. I'm not even sure it's arguable. The Flyers might not see more than tow or three teams this year where their defense "totally outclasses" their opponent's.

And on offense with Gagne it looks close to a dead heat to me, but had Gagne been in the lineup over the past month, we'd likely not be having this conversation.
I do not agree.

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by kz View Post
I do not agree.
I'm not sure I do either. Talent wise, the Devils defense is playing so far above their heads right now that you almost have to think, at some point, they'll regain their senses and realize that they're all career #4-6 guys. At best. Except Martin.

I do think the talent at forward on the two teams is very comprable, again, with Philadelphia having a much higher top-end but the Devils enjoying more depth of talent in the 4-9 slot.

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:33 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Talent wise, the Devils defense is playing so far above their heads right now that you almost have to think, at some point, they'll regain their senses and realize that they're all career #4-6 guys. At best.
The Flyers feature one guy, Timonen, who is near the top tier in the league. After that: cliff. Two guys in their twilight years and three guys with less than three years in the NHL.

I stand corrected, though - it's arguable.

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:39 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The Flyers feature one guy, Timonen, who is near the top tier in the league. After that: cliff. Two guys in their twilight years and three guys with less than three years in the NHL.

I stand corrected, though - it's arguable.
I did exaggerate some. White is a career #2-3, not as good as Smith, but the same kind of player. Timonen and Martin are the best comparison for each other, with Timonen the clear winner there too. So there's the top-2 defensemen on each team, and again the Flyers come out on top in terms of top-end talent.

After that it gets messier. From the Devils, Greene is a #4 with #2 potential, Vishnevski is a #5 with #4 potential, Mike Mottau is a number #7 who forgot he was a career AHLer and is playing like a #2 with 25 minutes a game, and doing it well... like where did he come from? Karel Rachunek is a #4 playing like a #4. Then Oduya and Brookbank are both #7s and playing like it.

How that really matches up against Philadelphia, I can't say, having only seen the games they've played against the Devils this season.

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Old
12-17-2007, 12:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
That's what I am getting at.

If you would trade Elias, Parise, Gionta, Zajac, Zubrus, Madden, and Langenbrunner

for

Briere, Richards, Lupul, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, and Knuble

then you can say the Flyers are more talented at forward. If not, then not.

And I am not sure Gagne belongs in the conversation since the Flyers record without him is significantly worse that without him.
I agree with your general line of thought. I would probably prefer the Flyer players, just because I hate the Devils so much, but the Devil forwards are much better than they get credit for - esp. as a group.

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Old
12-17-2007, 01:09 AM
  #36
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After thinking about it further, I don't think id feel comfortable saying one team has more talent than the other. I think they are two very different teams, perhaps we do have a more robust top talent...i'm not really sure.

I'm envious of the Devils however, because I think they work with what they have a lot better than we do. Perhaps thats at the feet of Stevens, im not sure.

I think to simply say we are a totally better team may have too much homer-bias involved. It's just not that simple.

For instance...Flyer fans put Richards on a pedestal ( myself included ), he's nearly a demigod here in Philadelphia. But Parise is a pretty comparable player, and a gem in his own right.

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Old
12-17-2007, 06:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Or is it the other way around?
No....

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Old
12-17-2007, 07:15 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by 27roenick97 View Post
we definately have the edge in forwards, by having better forwards, and more of them. the devils, after elias, parise and gionta, aren't anything to really write home about.

but marty brodeur behind a defensively sound team still trumps us, as evidenced by us dropping the last three to them.
Parise is in top 25 for the scoring in the league...

He has more points than Briere...


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Old
12-17-2007, 08:33 AM
  #39
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Sutter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stevens

Stevens has no clue what he is doing (most of the time).

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12-17-2007, 07:00 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Yeah... wouldn't everyone trade those three for the three Devils, Doc? Besides, you're talking the three top forwards on Philadelphia and not comparing them to the three best comparables on the Devils.
That wasn't the point of the post. It was pretty cut and dry.

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Old
12-17-2007, 09:50 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I think it's foolish to conclude if Sutter or Stevens is a better coach this soon.
Agreed, but it's equally foolish to definitively say the Flyers are a more talented team than the Devils. If that were clearly so then why would the Devils finish higher every year? You cant just say Brodeur.

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Old
12-17-2007, 09:54 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Agreed, but it's equally foolish to definitively say the Flyers are a more talented team than the Devils. If that were clearly so then why would the Devils finish higher every year? You cant just say Brodeur.
Yes, you can.

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Old
12-17-2007, 09:58 PM
  #43
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Agreed, but it's equally foolish to definitively say the Flyers are a more talented team than the Devils. If that were clearly so then why would the Devils finish higher every year? You cant just say Brodeur.
you really want to run a theory out to trot that suggests having the best player at the most important position isn't a significant advantage? moreover, a player that plays nearly the entirety of every game of the season historically...

Brodeur has a tremendous effect upon the Devils' finishes in the standings.

i would also suggest that in the past the Devs have had a bit more talent on their roster than they do this year... it's certainly a versatile roster, but it lacks top-end talent.

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Old
12-17-2007, 10:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I think it's foolish to conclude if Sutter or Stevens is a better coach this soon.
of course you do, but the vast majority of the hockey world reached that conclusion two years ago when Sutter was one of the most coveted coaches in hockey and Stevens was getting nice to meet you interviews and getting passed over for NHL jobs.

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12-17-2007, 10:19 PM
  #45
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Brodeur has a tremendous effect upon the Devils' finishes in the standings.
Obviously, but he isnt the ONLY reason, which was my point. It's a very common and convenient thing for Devils-haters to just dismiss the entire team and say they win "because of Brodeur", as if it's simply a one-off. It's as if to say the rest of the team has no talent, and talent is what this thread is about. Martin Brodeur is not the reason the Flyers lost yesterday, not by a long-shot.

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i would also suggest that in the past the Devs have had a bit more talent on their roster than they do this year... it's certainly a versatile roster, but it lacks top-end talent.
I think the Flyers may have more offensive marquee names, but in terms of overall offense I dont think the Devils are all that far apart from the Flyers. Why? Because the Devils will have guys on all 4 lines with >15 goals by year end, whereas the Flyers have that dominant first line of Richards-Umberger-Lupul, but those 3 guys have close to a whopping 40% of the Flyers entire point production.

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Old
12-17-2007, 10:42 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Obviously, but he isnt the ONLY reason, which was my point. It's a very common and convenient thing for Devils-haters to just dismiss the entire team and say they win "because of Brodeur", as if it's simply a one-off. It's as if to say the rest of the team has no talent, and talent is what this thread is about. Martin Brodeur is not the reason the Flyers lost yesterday, not by a long-shot.
Brodeur is the main reason for the Devils consistent strong finishes in the past... and individual games are a horrid method of analysis. The Devils have had very good skaters on their club, but so have the Flyers... Brodeur has been the difference.

Quote:
I think the Flyers may have more offensive marquee names, but in terms of overall offense I dont think the Devils are all that far apart from the Flyers. Why? Because the Devils will have guys on all 4 lines with >15 goals by year end, whereas the Flyers have that dominant first line of Richards-Umberger-Lupul, but those 3 guys have close to a whopping 40% of the Flyers entire point production.
Richards, Umberger, and Lupul have NOT been playing the majority of the season together... so using them as an analytical point is simply silly.

The Flyers could have 8 guys who pot 20 goals this season if Gagne comes back to play enough games... so starting in on a debate that suggests the Flyers have a lack of scoring depth is merely ignorance on your part. The Flyers have greater depth of scoring than the Devils... it's that simple. Not saying the Devs don't have good players, just not the offensive depth.

Moreover, the Flyers are on pace to score 50 more goals than the Devils... which isn't some fluke... the Devs are 23rd in the league in scoring and that's exactly where you'd expect them to be based on that roster... the Flyers are 4th, a bit higher than I expected, but they certainly were a top third team... and that's without Gagne for the majority of the season.

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Old
12-17-2007, 11:00 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Obviously, but he isnt the ONLY reason, which was my point. It's a very common and convenient thing for Devils-haters to just dismiss the entire team and say they win "because of Brodeur", as if it's simply a one-off. It's as if to say the rest of the team has no talent, and talent is what this thread is about. Martin Brodeur is not the reason the Flyers lost yesterday, not by a long-shot.
yes he is, he was the best player on the ice, i mean the penalty shot, all those pp's plus he makes difficult saves look casual, all im saying is if marty didnt play yesterday we dont win

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Old
12-18-2007, 12:11 AM
  #48
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It's interesting to talk about individual talent in a team game - and I mean that honestly. The Rangers I guess are the posterchild for individual talent - that squad makes the most money of any team in the league (from a "cap" perspective - taking into account Jagr's salary paid by Washington, and just from a pure this-year's-pay perspective given the front-loaded deals to Drury and Gomez). But, clearly, as a team they're still struggling to find themselves.

Are the Flyers more talented than the Devils? Having seen the past Devils teams and knowing the huge drop-off in talent from those years to this one, I immediately wanted to say yes. But, it's also true that the players play within a system, and for the system, the Devils have managed to ice a group in which each player can play their role.

So, does the fact that the Devils players are maximizing their strengths point to good coaching? Or is it that Lou was looking for coachable players with certain skills? Tough to say. It's clear that Lou and Sutter deserve credit for the Devils' performance through the first half of this year. There was a lot of talk on the Devils board that this was our year to do what the Flyers did last year, but here they are, first in the division again.

All that said, Holmgren and Stevens did such a remarkable job turning things around in one year, perhaps the scale is a bit skewed for the Flyers? This is a team that has realistic Cup chances - a year after getting the #2 pick in the draft. IMO - that's a pretty huge leap, and something that could only happen if there's good coaching and good talent.

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Old
12-18-2007, 09:07 AM
  #49
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All that said, Holmgren and Stevens did such a remarkable job turning things around in one year, perhaps the scale is a bit skewed for the Flyers? This is a team that has realistic Cup chances - a year after getting the #2 pick in the draft. IMO - that's a pretty huge leap, and something that could only happen if there's good coaching and good talent.
Stevens is doing a miserable job with this team... and this team doesn't have realistic Cup chances the way they're playing today... any team that plays a tight game is going to cause them massive problems.

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Old
12-18-2007, 09:10 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Stevens is doing a miserable job with this team... and this team doesn't have realistic Cup chances.
The frustrating thing is, if everyone was on the same page and looked more like a team, i think we could have realistic cup chances. We have the players here but something isn't clicking... i'm wearing thin on patience with Stevens

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