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Cobourn top pairing?

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Old
12-18-2007, 10:25 AM
  #26
Jester
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
They should have him playing instead of RF, and he should play in place of Hatcher but we know that wont happen......I know Jones is playing real well now, but this is what I wanted to see at the beginning of the season

Timonen Kukkonen
Coburn Smith
Picard Gauthier/Hatcher
Jones
Jones has come back to earth considerably... not so much to really push the issue, but he's not playing at the level he was playing the first 15-20 games. Financially Fitzpatrick makes more sense as a 7th dman... keeping Jones around as the 7th is poor cap management.

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12-18-2007, 10:29 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jones has come back to earth considerably... not so much to really push the issue, but he's not playing at the level he was playing the first 15-20 games. Financially Fitzpatrick makes more sense as a 7th dman... keeping Jones around as the 7th is poor cap management.
Going forward it would be bad cap management to keep Jones around, but at the beginning of the year I think we all felt he was the #7. Fitz is good short term for the #7, but if someone needed to play 20 games in a row or so, I rather have Picard in there.

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12-18-2007, 10:36 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Going forward it would be bad cap management to keep Jones around, but at the beginning of the year I think we all felt he was the #7. Fitz is good short term for the #7, but if someone needed to play 20 games in a row or so, I rather have Picard in there.
well, i wanted to trade or waive Jones at the start of the year... cuz paying him to be the 7th didn't make a ton of sense in my mind.

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12-18-2007, 10:39 AM
  #29
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well, i wanted to trade or waive Jones at the start of the year... cuz paying him to be the 7th didn't make a ton of sense in my mind.
Jones might be good as a throw in if we make any trade for a dman. Any team that is sending us a top 4 dman obviously has someone else that can step into that role, and Jones might be good to fill in on the bottom pair.

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12-18-2007, 10:59 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Jones might be good as a throw in if we make any trade for a dman. Any team that is sending us a top 4 dman obviously has someone else that can step into that role, and Jones might be good to fill in on the bottom pair.

Jones is playing very well - in our top pairing. He's certainly outplayed Kukkonen by miles this year. If anyone goes to make room for Picard, it's Kukkonen.

Jones leads the D with +8, has 13 points (only 4 on PP) vs. Timonen who is -3 and has only 2 of 16 points at even strength.

It's pretty safe to say we'd be sunk without Jones impressive play this year. He didn't even do too badly as the #1 and PP point in the last couple games.

Yeah, let's get rid of him fast.

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12-18-2007, 11:03 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Jones is playing very well - in our top pairing. He's certainly outplayed Kukkonen by miles this year. If anyone goes to make room for Picard, it's Kukkonen.

Jones leads the D with +8, has 13 points (only 4 on PP) vs. Timonen who is -3 and has only 2 of 16 points at even strength.

It's pretty safe to say we'd be sunk without Jones impressive play this year. He didn't even do too badly as the #1 and PP point in the last couple games.

Yeah, let's get rid of him fast.
Yep, he is the next great #1 offensive defenseman in the league....what the hell was I thinking

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12-18-2007, 11:11 AM
  #32
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Jones is playing very well - in our top pairing. He's certainly outplayed Kukkonen by miles this year. If anyone goes to make room for Picard, it's Kukkonen.

Jones leads the D with +8, has 13 points (only 4 on PP) vs. Timonen who is -3 and has only 2 of 16 points at even strength.

It's pretty safe to say we'd be sunk without Jones impressive play this year. He didn't even do too badly as the #1 and PP point in the last couple games.

Yeah, let's get rid of him fast.
i'd argue that point vehemently. Jones has had a nice rise to his level of play, but to imbue him with that level of an impact is way too much... it also ignores that he isn't playing near the level he was at the beginning of the year now.

Kukkonen is a defense-first defenseman... and a good one at that. He serves a completely different role than Randy Jones...

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12-18-2007, 11:13 AM
  #33
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Yep, he is the next great #1 offensive defenseman in the league....what the hell was I thinking
My point exactly, what the hell were you thinking? Jones may not be the greatest Dman, but he's better than most we've got.

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12-18-2007, 11:18 AM
  #34
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i'd argue that point vehemently. Jones has had a nice rise to his level of play, but to imbue him with that level of an impact is way too much... it also ignores that he isn't playing near the level he was at the beginning of the year now.

Kukkonen is a defense-first defenseman... and a good one at that. He serves a completely different role than Randy Jones...
Agreed, Kukki is a d-first guy, our third string in that role behind Smith and Hatcher, and to be bypassed anytime now by Parent.

I like Kukkonen but he's nothing special. He's not big enough to take on huge forwards.

Jones' contribution on the ice has been substantial, despite your bias, and is proven out statistically as well.

At this point neither Picard nor Kukkonen is at his level. He's in our top 4 until Holmgren signs or acquires someone better.

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12-18-2007, 11:26 AM
  #35
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Agreed, Kukki is a d-first guy, our third string in that role behind Smith and Hatcher, and to be bypassed anytime now by Parent.

I like Kukkonen but he's nothing special. He's not big enough to take on huge forwards.

Jones' contribution on the ice has been substantial, despite your bias, and is proven out statistically as well.

At this point neither Picard nor Kukkonen is at his level. He's in our top 4 until Holmgren signs or acquires someone better.
Kukkonen has been markedly better than Hatcher, who will be leaving with his contract in hand sooner rather than later... Smith may not even be here next year depending on what his thoughts are concerning a contract...

Jones' contributions have been on par with that of Coburn offensively... however, it's also top heavy and he wasn't doing much for this club for the entire month of November.

If you think it's bias, I can't say too much to you because apparently you're more objective than me... and thus pull that in as a argumentative point (an incredibly weak one at that). I would also note that the majority of Jones' nice plus/minus was built whilst playing with Kukkonen as his partner.

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12-18-2007, 12:28 PM
  #36
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My point exactly, what the hell were you thinking? Jones may not be the greatest Dman, but he's better than most we've got.
He is at best our 4th best dman, probably 5th, not something I would cry over if he left and a real top 4 dman was coming the other way.

Ignore the fact that you are overrating this guy for a minute, if you wouldnt trade him when getting another top 4 dman back in the package deal, and you have guys like Picard, Parent ready to come up next year, not sure I would want you managing my team or the cap for that matter....but thats just my opinion

He is a -4 in the last 3 games by the way....not too great when he doesnt have Timonen or Kukkonen to cover him

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12-18-2007, 01:58 PM
  #37
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My point exactly, what the hell were you thinking? Jones may not be the greatest Dman, but he's better than most we've got.
He's a trainwreck in the defensive zone, which is critical when one considers that the defenseman's primary job is to keep the puck out of his own net.

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12-18-2007, 02:06 PM
  #38
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He's a trainwreck in the defensive zone, which is critical when one considers that the defenseman's primary job is to keep the puck out of his own net.
he's been better this year, so i'd elevate him above trainwreck level... however, the myth of Randy Jones' surging abilities has taken on some ridiculous qualities.

if he hadn't had such a hot offensive start... paired with the fact that Kukkonen was pushing his +/- so high so quickly... it would be a different story.

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12-18-2007, 02:23 PM
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he's been better this year, so i'd elevate him above trainwreck level... however, the myth of Randy Jones' surging abilities has taken on some ridiculous qualities.
He still gets caught not playing the pass, watching forwards stand at the open side of the net unimpeded, and taking really dumb ****ing penalties so I have a hard time not call him a defensive trainwreck. His offensive game has improved by a substantial margin since originally coming to the Flyers, but offense is a secondary attribute when we're discussing defensemen.

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12-18-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
He still gets caught not playing the pass, watching forwards stand at the open side of the net unimpeded, and taking really dumb ****ing penalties so I have a hard time not call him a defensive trainwreck. His offensive game has improved by a substantial margin since originally coming to the Flyers, but offense is a secondary attribute when we're discussing defensemen.
But he's better... i'm just quibbling over semantics to an extent... just think lowering him down that far is a bit too strong. The offensive jump has actually led to some of Jones' problems as he's gotten way too confident/aggressive at times in joining the rush and keeps ending up below the circles and we're in danger of an odd-man rush against.

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12-18-2007, 05:28 PM
  #41
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Financially Fitzpatrick makes more sense as a 7th dman... keeping Jones around as the 7th is poor cap management.
What? Jones makes $25k over minimum, which is less then Fitzpatrick, Picard or any other member of our defense.

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12-18-2007, 05:34 PM
  #42
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What? Jones makes $25k over minimum, which is less then Fitzpatrick, Picard or any other member of our defense.
Let me rephrase... I don't believe in having young players in the 7th dman spot as I think it's completely counterproductive to the cap. I'd much rather have someone like Fitzpatrick, who I don't give a crap about next year, or the year after, in that spot... than someone like Jones who would wallow in that role, he also needs to play to improve.

I also admit conflating larger discussions that would have had Gauthier as the 7th dman, etc. If you're going to have a player with Jones' age/contract status around, I'd rather he be playing than sitting in the press box as it is a waste of cap... A veteran like Fitzpatrick, who you know what you're going to get when you plug him in there is fine in my mind.

However, i also think Fitzpatrick has played too much... if they were going to use him for that many games straight I think they should have brought up one of Picard, Guenin, or Parent for the long stretch to see what's what... i think the Downie suspension played havoc on doing that, however. The statement I made is processed within the larger context of the cap from this year to next and the year after. Fitzpatrick is a throw away contract... Randy Jones is not (theoretically).

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