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Gagne to be back next week?

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Old
12-19-2007, 08:07 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
You might want a disclaimer or something in your sig or above it.
This may help for some people.


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12-19-2007, 08:09 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Death of a Martian View Post
Briere's been lost since Gagne's been gone.
Come on, look who he's playing with. Why not play Upshall - Briere - Tolpeko and give the trash to Carter?

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12-19-2007, 08:33 AM
  #28
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I think this news is BS... Flyers lost 4 straight. Thats why we are talking about Gagne now.

Thats just me, I do not trust Flyers medical stuff when it comes to concussions or groin injuries.

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12-19-2007, 10:07 AM
  #29
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Come on, look who he's playing with. Why not play Upshall - Briere - Tolpeko and give the trash to Carter?
I've been arguing for Upshall on the top line since the summer. Apparently he's a better fit with Dowd though. Hartnell and Knuble would actually be an excellent fit for Carter as well. They can both dig for the pucks in the corners after Carter's missed shots

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12-19-2007, 10:18 AM
  #30
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Ignoring the fact that a team's best goalscorer can win games by himself just by scoring goals in a close games, Gagne's return balances out the lines, which in effect will make the entire team play better. I'm not even sure what you mean by "right the ship," but they're a much better team with him in the lineup.
they were the same team with him that they've been without him... will he help some? sure... but they were giving up tons of shots with him in the lineup... and not taking too many of their own.

same stuff has been going on all year.

the formula isn't difficult to see... control the puck, give up less shots... and take it from there. this team can finish with the best of 'em... they just need to give their opposition less opportunity. so, by "right the ship," i mean fix those issues... which isn't really what I'd expect to see from Gagne when he comes back... he'll score some goals... and play solid defense. however, he's not going to magically create more possession, etc.

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12-19-2007, 11:21 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
They can both dig for the pucks in the corners after Carter's missed shots
Ha! Except the shots go all the way around and lead to odd man rushes in the other direction.

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12-19-2007, 11:39 AM
  #32
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Briere doesnt need magic men. He played with hecht and Pominville last year.

He just needs people who arent dumb

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12-19-2007, 11:54 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Briere doesnt need magic men. He played with hecht and Pominville last year.

He just needs people who arent dumb
Not really. He needs players who can skate and have competent hands.

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12-19-2007, 12:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Gagne is my favorite player... and a very good one... but he's not good enough to right this ship just by his presence/return. He's a sniper who can play defense... he's not a guy that helps a team create puck control in any real way, or any of the other slew of issues this team has had.

We've also not really been struggling for offense in his absence... the scoring is there, we just don't make it happen as a group.
well you would hope anyway that Gagne coming back would stabalize the top 2 lines. that would be a start anyway.

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12-19-2007, 04:05 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by rayearth View Post
Come on, look who he's playing with. Why not play Upshall - Briere - Tolpeko and give the trash to Carter?
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I've been arguing for Upshall on the top line since the summer. Apparently he's a better fit with Dowd though. Hartnell and Knuble would actually be an excellent fit for Carter as well. They can both dig for the pucks in the corners after Carter's missed shots
Well done, gentlemen. I cannot even begin to tell you how "done" with Carter I am. In fact, I was "done" with him last season. I am beginning to literally cringe when he is on the ice because I dread the missed shots that end up in odd-man rushes the other way while he'll coast in and decide whether or not to pick up the trailer. I honestly haven't even opened any of the "What does the Richards deal mean for Carter"-type threads, because I'm at the point that I just don't even give a ***** about him. I may regret this some day, and that's fine, it won't be the first time I am wrong, but I could absolutely care less about his future in this organization. Game after game I find myself hoping for a sweet offer sheet come next summer. Let him walk, he's shown zero improvement in the last 12 months IMO. As far as I'm concerned, the mono/whatever-the-hell-it-was last season excuses are done. He freakin' needs to step up to the plate and do his freakin' job. As I said the other day, he is a freakin' disgrace to the #17.

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12-19-2007, 04:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Well done, gentlemen. I cannot even begin to tell you how "done" with Carter I am. In fact, I was "done" with him last season. I am beginning to literally cringe when he is on the ice because I dread the missed shots that end up in odd-man rushes the other way while he'll coast in and decide whether or not to pick up the trailer. I honestly haven't even opened any of the "What does the Richards deal mean for Carter"-type threads, because I'm at the point that I just don't even give a ***** about him. I may regret this some day, and that's fine, it won't be the first time I am wrong, but I could absolutely care less about his future in this organization. Game after game I find myself hoping for a sweet offer sheet come next summer. Let him walk, he's shown zero improvement in the last 12 months IMO. As far as I'm concerned, the mono/whatever-the-hell-it-was last season excuses are done. He freakin' needs to step up to the plate and do his freakin' job. As I said the other day, he is a freakin' disgrace to the #17.
Sadly, this is true.

I want him to wake up and play like he cares, but he just skates around and if the puck happens to come to him...he just blindly fires it off as quickly as he can and misses the net, and we all know what happens from there
Take a second to aim, Jeff! Show me some creativity while you're at it...

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12-19-2007, 04:30 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BClanc159 View Post
Sadly, this is true.

I want him to wake up and play like he cares, but he just skates around and if the puck happens to come to him...he just blindly fires it off as quickly as he can and misses the net, and we all know what happens from there
Take a second to aim, Jeff! Show me some creativity while you're at it...
rewind to '03-'04 and the same was said of Simon Gagne.

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12-19-2007, 04:41 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
rewind to '03-'04 and the same was said of Simon Gagne.
At Gagne's worst, he never, ever sucked as bad as Carter does. And as you so often point out, Gagne plays defense and could often redeem himself in that category--Carter sucks there as well.

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12-19-2007, 04:45 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
At Gagne's worst, he never, ever sucked as bad as Carter does. And as you so often point out, Gagne plays defense and could often redeem himself in that category--Carter sucks there as well.
Carter is a good PK'er... where he struggles defensively is in playing it as a center, which Gagne never had to do for any length of period at the NHL level.. much easier on a young player to cover the point, than have to match the play in the slot and behind the net.

Gagne was playing a much easier position... not saying Carter will develop into Gagne... but he's once again on pace for a 20+ goal season and you're acting like he's accomplishing nothing. He's a young player playing on an inconsistent line... and, IMO, playing out of position.

He's 22... and a big framed guy... the development is slower.

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12-19-2007, 04:54 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
rewind to '03-'04 and the same was said of Simon Gagne.
He had already shown us what he can do, though. He had scored 30 goals already and was a danger when he was on the ice, along with becoming a better two-way player. I don't think other teams' defense are dreading Carter flying past them up the ice, though he can. He'll just be taken wide, and fire a wide shot.
Jeff has shown occasional flashes but I don't like his habits on the ice as of late. I REALLY want him to do well-I like him, and I thought he was a better prospect than Richards(until this season).

I'll give him some slack, sure, I realize it's still relatively early in his development. I didn't have these concerns with Williams- and was very angry when he was traded because I knew he had the skills to be a top winger. I don't want to trade another one of our top young players for not developing quickly, but these are things he needs to improve on to become more effective.

It's just that I'm tired of saying to myself, "Come on Jeff, you can do better than that!"

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12-19-2007, 04:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter is a good PK'er... where he struggles defensively is in playing it as a center, which Gagne never had to do for any length of period at the NHL level.. much easier on a young player to cover the point, than have to match the play in the slot and behind the net.

Gagne was playing a much easier position... not saying Carter will develop into Gagne... but he's once again on pace for a 20+ goal season and you're acting like he's accomplishing nothing. He's a young player playing on an inconsistent line... and, IMO, playing out of position.

He's 22... and a big framed guy... the development is slower.
As I just wrote in the other thread, I am totally on your "playing out of position" bandwagon. But think of what you wrote many, many times last year (to paraphrase): "In order for this team to be productive, we need Carter-Richards-Umberger to play better/well (whatever)." From where I sit, two of those three have made huge strides this year, the other hasn't. He may be developing slower, but please (and this is not sarcastic, I am being truly heartfelt), what does "development" have to do with his never-ending ability to not find the net? Is it the speed of the game? The size of his opponents? What?

You know he's never been atop of my "favorite" list, but he is irkin' the shizzle out of me this year.

One more question--if you listed our players at all positions from top to bottom in terms of play this season (not potential, just flat out on-ice performance), would you rank Carter in the top half? Top third? Top quarter? Because right now, I'm not sure I would.

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12-19-2007, 05:06 PM
  #42
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As I just wrote in the other thread, I am totally on your "playing out of position" bandwagon. But think of what you wrote many, many times last year (to paraphrase): "In order for this team to be productive, we need Carter-Richards-Umberger to play better/well (whatever)." From where I sit, two of those three have made huge strides this year, the other hasn't. He may be developing slower, but please (and this is not sarcastic, I am being truly heartfelt), what does "development" have to do with his never-ending ability to not find the net? Is it the speed of the game? The size of his opponents? What?

You know he's never been atop of my "favorite" list, but he is irkin' the shizzle out of me this year.

One more question--if you listed our players at all positions from top to bottom in terms of play this season (not potential, just flat out on-ice performance), would you rank Carter in the top half? Top third? Top quarter? Because right now, I'm not sure I would.
seriously... '03-'04... all we heard about was how much Gagne missed the net... etc. etc. Gagne enjoyed some immediate success because he was on a line with Mark Recchi and Primeau... Recchi being a guy who could simply feed him the puck.

who has Carter ever played with to provide that type of stability to his offensive game? he was playing with Umberger and Dimitrakos (and they weren't a bad line)... and then the revolving door of absurdity last year...

right now he has a undrafted FA on one wing and a combination of Upshall and Kapanen on the other. Richards has certainly been playing better than Carter, but he's playing with two first round draft picks consistently most nights... these things matter.

Richards
Briere
Lupul
Umberger
Carter/Upshall
Hartnell
Kapanen
Knuble - PP is the only thing keeping him afloat

that's how i'd rank the relevant forwards, with Hartnell rising as he's finally starting to produce.

What Carter needs for his shot is confidence... he needs to get on a hot streak that proves to him that if he simply get his shot on net consistently, good things will happen. His problem right now, similar to Gagne before he started to play with Forsberg and was just firing away, is he attempts to be far too fine. I also don't think he's very comfortable carrying the puck to both directions of the ice... he likes to skate to his forehand side, which is why I think he'd potentially be more comfortable and enjoy greater success as a RW. That being said, he's also never played with anyone who could really control the puck/play on his line - again, someone like Recchi on his wing would work wonders (Upshall and Tolpeko ain't it).

At the end of the day you flipping out about Carter is essentially the same criticism you've made of others with regard to Richards... Richards has blossomed to a shocking degree... there's very little to suggest that Carter won't eventually harness his raw skills. Williams problem here was that he was all speed and wouldn't shoot the puck when he was in prime locations... he got to Carolina and started to shoot. voila... goals. Carter doesn't have problem with shooting... his problem is trying to snipe, and not simply put it on net and make it happen.

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12-19-2007, 05:14 PM
  #43
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You keep referring to Williams, but I don't recall bringing up his name did I? Again, I will agree with you that Carter's confidence has waned, and I'm guessing that somewhere deep inside, that he'd never admit to, watching Richards turn into a virtual machine probably hurts/bothers him a wee bit. I don't doubt that he wants to enjoy the same success that Richie has had.

Getting back to one thing (and I don't even know if this is in the right thread at this point), but just to look at the Umberger thing a little closer, look at Jagr in NY right now. Now some will argue that he is another year older, but I really think not having Nylander has hurt him terribly--and we're talking about one of the best wingers in the last decade. I don't think line chemistry can or should be overlooked in the NHL. Yes, some time in the future we will most likely be seeing JVR on Richie's wing, like I said, I'm not looking to sign Umby to a ton of years at this point, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And right now, the Richards line is about the only part of this team that ain't broke.

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12-19-2007, 05:22 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
You keep referring to Williams, but I don't recall bringing up his name did I? Again, I will agree with you that Carter's confidence has waned, and I'm guessing that somewhere deep inside, that he'd never admit to, watching Richards turn into a virtual machine probably hurts/bothers him a wee bit. I don't doubt that he wants to enjoy the same success that Richie has had.

Getting back to one thing (and I don't even know if this is in the right thread at this point), but just to look at the Umberger thing a little closer, look at Jagr in NY right now. Now some will argue that he is another year older, but I really think not having Nylander has hurt him terribly--and we're talking about one of the best wingers in the last decade. I don't think line chemistry can or should be overlooked in the NHL. Yes, some time in the future we will most likely be seeing JVR on Richie's wing, like I said, I'm not looking to sign Umby to a ton of years at this point, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And right now, the Richards line is about the only part of this team that ain't broke.
Jagr is a mental midget. He pouted for an entire season in Washington because his girlfriend (Czech model) broke up with him... so he's really a worthless entity to compare anyone to, as I hope no one on our club is as unfocused as he is because no on on this club has his talent to overcome it.

I very much doubt Carter, who is good friends with Richards, is sitting around crying in his soup about Richards success and rewards.

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12-19-2007, 05:45 PM
  #45
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Jester, how about this one for now: It's two weeks ago, you are Homer--you only have room under the cap to sign one of Richards or Carter---who do you sign?

(You so won't get an argument from me regarding Jagr, so maybe that was a poor example, but I think in an effort to argue Jeff's-greatness to me, you are underestimating Umby's worth on that line right now--I'm not talking 5-10 years down the line, I'm talking now, so yes, you can say I am being short-sighted, but right now, that's the only "sight" I have. For all I know JVR blows out his knee and never sees a minute of NHL time, I believe the future will take care of itself, so I'm not going to stress about it now).

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12-19-2007, 05:58 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Jester, how about this one for now: It's two weeks ago, you are Homer--you only have room under the cap to sign one of Richards or Carter---who do you sign?

(You so won't get an argument from me regarding Jagr, so maybe that was a poor example, but I think in an effort to argue Jeff's-greatness to me, you are underestimating Umby's worth on that line right now--I'm not talking 5-10 years down the line, I'm talking now, so yes, you can say I am being short-sighted, but right now, that's the only "sight" I have. For all I know JVR blows out his knee and never sees a minute of NHL time, I believe the future will take care of itself, so I'm not going to stress about it now).
I'd sign Richards. I agreed with the deal at the time... the flaw in your entire argument is that none of this negates what Carter is or is not doing out there... it doesn't negate what Carter is capable of.

Umberger has nothing to do with that line's success... which isn't a shot at him, but Richards has produced with everyone who has been put on his wing this year. The real connection is between Richards and Lupul, who shouldn't be broken up because Richards is the perfect player to setup Lupul apparently.

Nor am I suggesting that Umberger should go for nothing... just that he's at a position loaded on the organizational depth chart: wing. and more than a few of them have very high ceilings, or are better than him already.

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12-19-2007, 07:06 PM
  #47
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while i'd love to see carter hit the net more i think people are exaggerating how poorly he has played...

most of the team has been inconsistent and he is no different but the guy has 9 goals and is even on +/-...

rj & lupul have been on a torrid streak lately only have 6 & 12 goals respectively...he hasn't been a detriment anymore then most of his teammates...considering we don't have a great deal of depth at center i am willing to let the guy develop unless we get a very good offer...i agree that carter and umberger's situations shouldn't affect each other since they play different positions with different dept issues...

let carter center knuble & upshall for an extended period of time...hartnell seems to fit in decently w/ briere then knuble...

tolopeko has not only cooled off but is making really bad turnovers in the def. end...i would put him in the box for a game or two and give downey or rosie a call up


gags - briere-hartnell
rj - richards - lupul
knuble - carter - upshall
tolopeko/downey- potulny - kappenan

final point...it doesn't seem that they run breakout plays for guys like briere, carter, upshall enough...considering the problem our d has getting the puck out of our zone you'd think they would just bank the puck of the boards and let those guys to skate to it...

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12-19-2007, 07:16 PM
  #48
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[QUOTE=Rebel


gags - briere-hartnell
rj - richards - lupul
knuble - carter - upshall
tolopeko/downey- potulny - kappenan
[/QUOTE]

agreed - those are our best forwards. Don't like the Ruzicka option at all.

If Vandermeer doesn't dress then Cote needs to play against certain teams IMO

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12-19-2007, 07:29 PM
  #49
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Carter needs somebody on his line to command some attention. Upshall and Tolpeko are great hustle guys and always work hard, but realistically are either of them threats to score no not really. Upshall will get a few goals in close but for the most part he has a defender on him and has to shoot from a bad anhle. I agree that he should concentrate more on hitting the net from those sharp angles and should shoot low more often to create some rebounds. Giroux-Carter-Upshall I think would be an interesting line for next year, but that means moving Knuble.

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12-19-2007, 07:48 PM
  #50
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Carter needs somebody on his line to command some attention. Upshall and Tolpeko are great hustle guys and always work hard, but realistically are either of them threats to score no not really. Upshall will get a few goals in close but for the most part he has a defender on him and has to shoot from a bad anhle. I agree that he should concentrate more on hitting the net from those sharp angles and should shoot low more often to create some rebounds. Giroux-Carter-Upshall I think would be an interesting line for next year, but that means moving Knuble.
In the mean time, he needs Knuble. Tolpeko is relentless on the forecheck and can get the puck to Carter, who can fire wide enough times that it should bounce near Knuble down low at some point.

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